Poo on the floor when she knows better... why?

[Serenstar]

Hello. My puppy is now 12 weeks old. She from the get go was very good about using the puppy training pads to poo and wee. Initially I put a training mat in my bedroom because she was tiny and wanted to stay close to me. Then I put other mats, as well as the bedroom one, one in the kitchen, one in bathroom, which have lino on the floor. She has used both of these for at least 3 weeks no issues, as well as the bedroom one. However, for some reason, she seems to have begun using the floor in my bedroom which is carpeted. Every time she's done this, I've spoken to her sternly, and where possible put her on the mat to show her the correct place. I change the mats regularly and there are three around the house, all of which she uses. However, today, I went in the bedroom to find LOADS of poo, on the carpet, all around the floor. I was disgusted and very angry with her. I don't understand why she seems to be going backwards in understanding... she hardly had an accident at all at the start! Any ideas anyone? I live in a flat and there isn't a garden by the way. 

[Bordercentrics]

At 12 weeks, she does NOT know better. Most  puppies usually aren't even ready to start house training until they are 12 weeks old.  Plus, I have never known anyone who used wee wee pads to start with who didn't have trouble house training the pup.  Your pup has learned that it is ok to go in the house on absorbent surfaces, so that would include the carpet in your bedroom.  You need to start taking her outside frequently and praising the heck out of her when she goes out there. Do you have a small grassy area in front, since you don't have a back garden? I have had faster results using a clicker for this, but it can be done with voice praise as well, and then a reward.  Most puppies will respond to treats, but some to toys or petting. Sometimes we hear about Border Collie puppies who are house trained very fast, but please don't compare your pup to any other one.  They are all different.  Also, stop the sternness and anger.  This will only make it worse.  When she has made a mistake, quickly move her to the area you want her to be.  Praise her every time she goes there.  Give her no response at all when she goes elsewhere.  And to prevent her from doing it when you aren't looking, don't give her freedom of the flat when you aren't there, or when you can't catch her. Use a crate, an x-pen, or gate her into one of the rooms that are set up with pads.  She needs to earn her freedom with age and good behavior.

 

Best wishes, and do let us see a photo of her.

 

Kathy Robbins

[GentleLake]

For heaven's sake. She's just a baby and you're expecting her to behave like a puppy three times her age. Would you expect a human toddler to be perfectly toilet trained? The only one you should be disgusted and angry with is yourself for not having more realistic expectations.

First of all, don't ever let her out of your sight when she's loose. Watch for her signals that she's looking for a spot and then take her to the pads before she has a chance to follow through, then praise her profusely when she goes on the pads. When you can't be watching her, then put her in a crate so she can't go in the wrong places.

I hope you're not expecting a fully grown border collie to be using pads. If not, then it would have been better to have anticipated her needs and worked out before she arrived.

 

 

[Mandy1961]

It must be so, so difficult potty training in a flat, I live in a house with a garden and it still took until my puppy was at least 4 months before I felt confident with him. We had a set back around 14 weeks with him going wee and poo in his crate. I never got on with pads, he never went on one once, just chewedand ripped them up. All I can say is when your puppy does go on the pads, praise and give a high value treat, such as chicken or cheese. Are you able to take her out yet for walks? Hopefully when you can, you will see an improvement. My puppy is 10 months old now, and mostly goes on walks.

[D'Elle]

First, please don't get angry with your puppy. She is only very young still, and for you to assume that she "knows better" is not at all fair to her.  She does not know better! Getting angry and scolding her or being hard on her is not in any way going to help - in fact, it will make things much worse because the baby  - and she is still a baby - doesn't know why you are angry and will only become anxious as a result.

You have trained her that it is OK to go potty in the apartment. This is not a good idea at all, and is guaranteed to cause problems in potty training. Are you planning to have an adult dog going potty in your home on potty pads? I hope not, but if that is your plan please revise it asap. Your puppy needs to be taken outside regularly and praised for going potty outside, and should not be permitted to use pads in the house. The use of these pads I believe is the start of your problem, and the best thing you can do is start all over with potty training by taking her out frequently, and always after she has eaten or drunk water, after play, and as soon as she wakes up.  She will learn, because dogs do not want to go potty indoors if they are given ample opportunity to go outside.  But use praise for the good behavior, not punishment for what you don't like. 

[tamapup]

Just seconding what everyone else has already said: don't be angry with your puppy... it isn't fair at all and will only make the problem worse. You said in your other post that you were "rightfully furious" at her... I'd strongly encourage you to rethink your attitude in general, because there's hardly a time when you are justified for being furious at your dog and it certainly will not do anything to make the situation better. It's in almost all cases something that you failed to teach or communicate - NOT her being vengeful or plotting against you. Especially now, since she's a 12 week old puppy who isn't even acting out, but is just confused about what she should be doing. Keep in mind, too, that at 12 weeks old she really shouldn't be out of your sight to begin with, unless she's in a safe confined space. 

That being said, I understand your decision to use potty pads and the struggle that comes with it, because I had to do that too in the first two months of having my pup. I also live in a flat with no garden, and where I live it is deemed unsafe to take puppies under 4 months outside on walks (until they are completely vaccinated). Even just on sidewalks. It's very hard for sure. I understand that sometimes you have to flexible and adapt to the situation to make it work out in the long run. Now, my boy is 5 months old and 100% potty trained to go outside on walks, so it all worked out just fine and we've had no problems with this approach to potty training, but it does take a lot of consistency and clarity (and lots of patience). Make sure you are rewarding her each time that she uses the pad... If you catch her in the act of going somewhere else, CALMLY pick her up and place her on the pad. Don't get angry - this will only make her anxious about the situation and likely make it worse. If you find the poo AFTER THE FACT, there's no point in you "punishing" her for it at all. She won't get it. The moment has gone by and she won't associate your corrections or anger with the act of going potty in the wrong place. 

When you transition to going outside, it helps to make the transition extremely clean-cut. This is how things work now. Simply don't give the chance to go indoors, remove all potty pads, never let her out your sight, and praise her when she goes outside. She should get the hang of it relatively quickly. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Serenstar]

I have no idea what's wrong with the people who answered this thread, the majority of you seem extremely judgemental. ihave explained that I do praise the puppy when she does it right and when she does it wrong I gently put her on the pad. I don't see a problem with speaking sternly to a dog, it isn't violence, and I was trying to understand why she has got confused apparenly when everything was ok. Yes I was angry, but I didn't say that I took the anger out on her. I disagree that I haven't trained her correctly. The point is she has been doing very well for four weeks, I think it's unlikely this is coincidence. To the person who said that I should not be using puppy pads, I don't have a choice because AT THE MOMENT SHE IS NOT ALLOWED OUT BECUASE SHE HAS NOT HAD INJECTIONS. Of course she's going to make mistakes, and so am I, for goodness sake. I was looking for help and got nothing but judgement. As a result of this, I am leaving this disgusting judgemental forum. Apologies to the few of you who actually tried to help me. To the rest, you know what you can do. 

[GentleLake]

35 minutes ago, Serenstar said:

...AT THE MOMENT SHE IS NOT ALLOWED OUT BECUASE SHE HAS NOT HAD INJECTIONS...

There's no reason on earth to completely quarantine a puppy from the outside world. In fact, from a socialization standpoint it's a very risky thing to do. A puppy that age needs to be exposed to as many people and other dogs -- healthy ones of course -- as possible at precisely this time in her development before she's closed off from learning to form healthy relationships. Not having them now carries a very high prospect of her not being able to function as a well adjusted adult dog.

As to your reactions to your puppy's accidents, if you think that just because you didn't smack her around or bellow at her that your anger has no affect on her, you're sadly mistaken. Dogs in general and border collies in particular are very sensitive to human emotions and are affected by them. If you don't believe me look up some of the studies.

Believing your training is correct is simply telling us that you 1) haven't done much research on how to house train a puppy and 2) have no real understanding of the maturation process and how young your puppy really is. (Hint: "going backwards in understanding" is a very normal part of learning and growing up, especially in very young animals.

I hope you aren't planning to have kids. I'm afraid you'll be expecting a child to be completely toilet trained by a year and a half or two years old, and the rest of us know how realistic an expectation that is.

Without any sarcasm, I wish you success . . . for the puppy's sake.

[HerePupPup]

I've read that pups have NO CONTROL over their bladder until they are AT LEAST 12 weeks old.  As for poo, well, I think a lot of that will depend on how long since the pup ate, what he ate and how upset his tummy is. Sometimes it just goes right through and other times it's more predictable.

My pup is 24 weeks. Her potty training has gone something like this:

Set alarm, take her outside to potty every 90 minutes during daytime hours. At night, I set my alarm for 2 hours. When she was 14 weeks, I extended the daytime potty breaks to 2 hours and nighttime potty breaks to 3 hours, unless she barked and woke me earlier. With this method, we had NO accidents in the crate. But she would sometimes go in her playpen -- and sometimes it was immediately after coming in from a potty break. ARGH!

By the time she was 16 weeks, I'd extended daytime to every 3 hours and I'd let her wake me for the nighttime potty breaks. She'd usually need to go every 3.5 hours. Playpen accidents happened ONLY when I ignored her barking. I was trying to ignore "demand" barking but she was trying to tell me she needed to go out. So, those potty accidents are my fault, not her. 

Around 20 weeks, there were no playpen accidents at all. This is about the time I started letting her have more freedom in the house, but always on a leash. She'd learned not to potty in her crate and not to potty in her playpen, but that learning did not yet translate to the rest of the house. Fast forward to 24 weeks. It's been more than a week since we had an inside potty accident. I don't watch the clock like I used to, but still take her outside fairly consistently. I'd say she goes out every three to four hours. At night, she was pretty consistent with 3.5 to 4 hours for the longest time. This week, however, she let me have two nights where she went 5 straight hours!  Woo-hoo!!

I tried using puppy pads, but my pup chewed them up instead of peeing on them.  I had to constantly remind myself that she was a baby (still a child) and has limited control over her bodily functions. Heck, some days I have limited control over my own and I've had almost six decades to perfect my bathroom habits!  When there are potty accidents or she chews something up, it's important that I put the blame where the blame is due -- on me! 

The more I learn about training a pup, the more I'm understanding that dogs do what comes natural, what they learn to do, what they are allowed to do. If you are unable to take your pup outdoors every couple of hours, then you need to be consistent about taking him to the pad. He does not naturally know that the pad is where he should be going. All he knows is that indoor potty is OK. At 12 weeks old, your pup should have already had two sets of shots. As long as you don't let your dog come in contact with another dog or their feces, he should be fine going outside your apartment to potty.

Just an FYI, my girl is very active and a bit high-strung. She's almost 6 months old and is still quite a nippy little brat. I'm not athletic nor do I live on a farm. Thankfully, I have backyard that is big enough to gently toss a Frisbee or throw a ball. My girl NEEDS three to four good fetch sessions every day. Between play sessions, she'll chew on a bully stick, play tug or just chill out. If I'm distracted with life or lots of doctor's visits or have surgery (like I did in January) and can't give her the playtime she needs, then she gets somewhat agitated and has trouble winding down. On those days, there's more demand barking, more nipping and a lot less relaxation for both of us! With you living in an apartment, I think you'll find that you, too, will need to figure out a daily routine of activity and downtime that will give your pup the balance of activity and rest that he needs.

Next Day - Edited to add ... we just had a pee accident in the kitchen. Totally MY fault!
She was in her playpen and barking, barking, barking. An hour earlier, she'd been outside playing Frisbee and running through her tunnel. It didn't occur to me that she'd not peed. I thought she was barking for attention or perhaps wanted her midday meal a little early. When she quieted, I let her out of the playpen, filled her Kong with dry kibble and then I saw it -- a big puddle of pee right next to the sliding door that leads to the backyard potty area. Was I irritated? Yep. But I was irritated at myself, not her.

[D'Elle]

We may as well stop trying to help this person and the dog. Sadly it appears it will do no good.

I feel really sorry for that puppy. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and no dog owners so dangerous to their dogs as those who refuse to consider that they might have something to learn.

[Sue R]

13 hours ago, D'Elle said:

We may as well stop trying to help this person and the dog. Sadly it appears it will do no good.

I feel really sorry for that puppy. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and no dog owners so dangerous to their dogs as those who refuse to consider that they might have something to learn.

For sure. 

[alligande]

To the OP there are some seriously experienced border collie owners and trainers trying to give you advice, if you choose to take on board what they are saying your house training will go much more successfully. When you tell a dog off, they become sneaky and start soiling in places you can't see until after the fact. 

My current youngster was housed trained very quickly in part because we spent weeks 10-12 staying with my mother in her flat. We did have the advantage of communal gardens outside. Because we were in someone else's home we were hyper vigilant, that pup was never out of our site, he was either in his crate, playing with us, doing some training etc. By the time we left he had learned to run to the door when he had to go, we scooped and carried him out. By the time we got home when he was 13 weeks, he was effectively house trained and has never made a mistake. He has never been told off, but he has had a hell of a lot of praise in his life.