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Gibbs and arthritis


urge to herd
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Gibbs is 11 yrs old and has problems with his knees, left one worse than the other. First orthopedist diagnosed acl damage. Second ortho tried cold laser therapy, which didn't do much and even seemed to make him more uncomfortable. Third ortho (who works in same clinic as 2nd one) is a rehab specialist. ALL these veterinarians have been wonderful, but #3, Dr. Hayes, is gonna be the most help, I think.

Dr. H spent almost 2 hours with me and Gibbs, and she had gone over all his records. The thing she and I discussed that that we're both concerned about is that G has a LOT of orthopedic issues. He's had problems w/his left front paw, his back, both knees, and one of his rear paws. He's not done anything physical that I'm aware ~ years of stock work or agility training, for example ~ that might explain it. His appetite/elimination are all normal.

He is Lyme positive from birth, but has no medical signs that he's ill with it. Gibbs is the first dog, (of 5 that I've owned) to have this much stuff. My previous 4, 1 cattle dog and 3 bc, 3 were healthy until they reached 13 or 14. Buzz had bone cancer, but up until he got that, he was hale and hearty.

Just in the past couple weeks, he's growled a couple times at The Roommate and once at me when we were playing with him. That's a first. After the visit w/Dr. H I'm thinking that his pain level might be increasing. 

So I'm puzzled and concerned. Dr. H gave me a raft of exercises to do, so I've started that. He's on an anti-inflammatory and a pain med, and he's still limping. If I can get his left leg muscles built back up, (muscle wasting is easily visible) that might help. I don't know if there's a sub-acute but active form of Lyme, but will email Dr. H and ask. 

Ideas? Experience? 

Ruth & Gibbs

 

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Chronic Lyme disease is controversial, with most holistic practitioners and some conventional docs accepting it. Most mainstream practitioners are reluctant to acknowledge it. I have no idea how the veterinary community perceives it or whether there's the same divide between mainstream and holistic approaches.

Have you investigated CBD hemp oil for Gibbs? Speaking only from personal experience, medical marijuana (I use a high CBD, low THC product) has made a difference for chronic arthritis pain.

Wishing you both the best with this.

 

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Thanks, GL. I'd thought about medical marijuana, will bring it up w/the doc. The problem for me is if his pain is lessened, will he want to be an active dog again, and how much of that is a reasonable risk if further injury to those joints is possible. Aaaargh. I've  no problem using medical MJ at all.

The good news is I just walked him on a shorter leash, which Dr. H recommended. I had been using a flexi. I was sure he'd want the freedom of the longer leash, but he was fine. Much easier to keep his pace steady, and almost no limping at the slower pace.

Ruth & Gibbs

 

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What anti-inflammatory and what pain med?  (Just to be clear, I am NOT a vet, just curious!)

My old man (almost 13 yr) has been on various joint supplements for quite awhile (bad hips, a little spondylosis, the occasional muscle pull when younger;  but STILL playing a little agility, and hiking 2-3 hours over varied terrain with no problems).  One rehab vet recommended alternating Cosequin DS and Platinum Performance CJ about every six months.  I decided (on my own, anecdotally) that he did better on the CJ so he's been on that for several years. 

The other thing that I think has helped him a lot is monthly Adequan injections.  I don't know if it would help Gibbs at this point - it is kinda pricey - but I do think it has helped my guy.

Other considerations:  (Yeah, this list got long)  Hyaflex, Ligaplex I alternated with Ligaplex 2, Vit. C (also controversial - he doesn't get much), fish oil and golden paste (there's a Facebook group called Turmeric Users Group - started by a vet in Australia; again, anecdotal, but I do think it has helped, and because it's "food", not a drug, there really isn't any downside to it).

Best of luck and health to you and Gibbs!

diane

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Medical marijuana and CBD oil aren't exactly the same thing.

There are different ratios of CBD and THC depending on how the extract's manipulated, and AFAIK, all the MM retains at least a tiny bit of THC, which is the psychoactive chemical in marijuana.

CBD oil's made from industrial hemp and doesn't contain THC. This is the only kind of oil I've heard of being recommended for dogs, though I won't claim to have any monopoly on accurate info with this.

If you do look into CBD, do a little research on extraction methods. Some chemical extraction methods leave trace amounts of the chemical and are considered lower quality as a result.

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Diane Allen, he's on carprofen and gabapentin. No problems with either, so far, and it does seem to be helping. 

I'm doing the exercises, most of which he's fine with, the only one he doesn't like is when I hold his right rear leg up so he has to bear more weight on his left rear leg. It's early days, but hopefully we'll get that leg stronger. If, as Dr H suspects, part of the problem is that his kneecap is slipping out of joint, then more muscle mass will help keep it in place. That's painful, my right kneecap slipped out several times. Made me limp, too.

Thanks, my friends.

R & G

ETA ~ we talked about adequan, and she asked if he was on glucosamine supplements, etc. I don't want to throw a bunch of different things into him all at once. It's impossible to tell what's working and what's just money being spent that isn't effective. 

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12 hours ago, urge to herd said:

I don't want to throw a bunch of different things into him all at once. It's impossible to tell what's working and what's just money being spent that isn't effective. 

Agreed.

Also if something doesn't agree with him there's no way to easily discern which one it is.

I'm a big believer in adding one thing at a time and assessing before adding another.

 

 

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So sorry you and he are having to deal with this.

Only one comment: I have done a fair bit of research into CBD and MMJ, and what I am reading and hearing is that CBD oil by itself has very patchy and unreliable effectiveness: some say it works, others don't and the don'ts are in the majority. What I am reading is that in order for the CBD to be truly reliably effective for pain it has to have a certain ratio of THC in it. Therefore, you can only get the effective stuff if you live where MMJ is legal and you can get a card (which you'd have to get for yourself because you can't get one for a dog as far as I know). They are doing a lot with MMJ these days and have developed strains that ease pain without getting the recipient high or causing drowsiness.  Seems to me that would be the thing to try if you can and want to go that route. I understand from reliable sources in the medical community that it can be very effective for arthritis-type pain.

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I'll look into whilst working on the rehab exercises that Dr H recommended. It's been a week, so early days. I assume MMJ is medical marijuana? Yes, I live where it's legal. I think there are 3 dispensaries in my county ~ we were early adopters. I've had good luck w/ the nearest one, Gibbs sees Dr H  again on Apr. 2nd for a re-check. I'll ask her then if she's got any experience w/medical marijuana use for dogs.

Thx, D'Elle.

R & G

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 I got Gibbs at age 2 or so, (him, not me:D) and the folks I got him from knew he was Lyme positive and told me. They also let me know that in 2009 they'd given him a 4 month course of doxy and NOT noticed change. I'm not averse to trying it again, depending on what the vet says.

D'Elle, I've got bad arthritis in my right foot and ankle, and medium arthritis in that knee. Hadn't given any thoughts to MMJ for my own discomfort! Will research that as well.

Thanks, everyone!

Ruth & Gibbs

Edited by urge to herd
added the NOT to 'noticed change'. Sheesh.
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