A curious leash walking development

[KevTheDog]

Hi all! A while ago I posted about Kevin getting a bit tantrum-y in the middle of longer walks. This was 7 or 8 weeks ago, and we were going out for 40ish minute walks with him at 4 months, and the wise posters here helped me realize that it was just too long for a puppy his age.

So fast forward to 6 months (today! Happy birthday Kevvo) and we're back at 40-45-ish minute walks. The behavior I described before still happens on occasion, but now only at specific places:

when we are about to cross a bigger street - either kind of big or quite big - and he is either overstimulated by the traffic/humans around, OR if it is toward the end of the walk and he is getting tired, Kevin will - as we enter the street to cross - start jumping to get the leash and/or start biting at my ankles. He doesn't do this to my husband, and he doesn't do it every time we cross a big street, but perhaps about half the time. If my husband has the leash, Kev will go for my ankles. If I have the leash, he will also go for my ankles. Fun for me! :/   

I've just realized in the last 2-3 days that it only happens while crossing big(ish) intersections. My plan moving forward is to get an ultra high-currency treat that he ONLY gets when he and I are crossing big streets - I plan to sit/treat, and then treat him as we cross the street as long as he's not being an ankle biter.

My question is a two-parter: 1) Why do you think he's doing this? I've thought maybe he's thinking "Oh no, it's dangerous, we gotta get you out of here!" or something like that, but I'm really not sure. I wonder if I know the reason, if it might help how I deal with the behavior. And 2) Do you reckon my high-currency treat idea is a good one or is there a smarter way to go about dealing with this? It happens even if we are at the very start of a walk, so I know it's not just tiredness related. And also...sometimes it doesn't happen at all!

Looking forward to reading what folks have to say

 

[GentleLake]

It doesn't matter at all why he does this. And the fact is there's really no way to know. Anything is guesswork unless you can actually get into the mind of the dog and know what he's thinking, and that's simply not possible.

As much as possible I'd try to limit the need to cross this type of intersection and/or still shorten the duration of the walk so he doesn't get to the point where he's that tired. Can you change your route to avoid some of these intersections, or the time of day so that you're not encountering as much traffic?

The treat idea's a good one. For a situation like this I'd use one of the refillable camping tubes (also available on Amazon, in camping stores and sites) with some kind of doggy crack, like ricotta cheese, baby food, thinned liverwurst in it. These are easy to to dangle by your leg at the heel position where you want your dog's head to be as he's walking when you're crossing the intersection and let him lick at the open end while you occasionally squeeze a bit to get more of the good stuff out t the end of the tube. Best thing I've ever found to easily keep the dog in the right position and keep the treats coming w/out interruption.

[urge to herd]

2 hours ago, GentleLake said:

It doesn't matter at all why he does this. And the fact is there's really no way to know. 

As much as possible I'd try to limit the need to cross this type of intersection and/or still shorten the duration of the walk so he doesn't get to the point where he's that tired.

The treat idea's a good one. For a situation like this I'd use one of the refillable camping tubes (also available on Amazon, in camping stores and sites) with some kind of doggy crack, like ricotta cheese, baby food, thinned liverwurst in it. 

^^^These. Simply work with what's there. Limit crossing these intersections, maybe once a week instead of daily. AND shorten the length of the walk. On the day you cross a huge intersection, have a REALLY short walk. See if his behavior is better with the shorter walks and especially on a day you don't cross that scary intersection.

I've had 3 border collies before Gibbs. While they share some behaviors/tendencies, there has been a huge difference in what they needed from ME, in terms of how to interact. For example, Shoshone preferred to have a little interaction w/humans as possible. BUT, she'd do anything for food. Once she got her treat, she'd ignore you again. Buzz LOVED people, to the point that I used getting to say hi to a new 'best friend' as a reward for his good behavior. 

Working with what you've got in front of you takes some flexibility and figuring stuff out. Why he does something just isn't important. Yes, routine is important for dogs (and humans) but adjustments are important, in getting the routine right. And knowing when to adapt. If he's not doing what you want, or he IS doing something you don't want, set him up so that it's easier for him to respond how you want him to.

Ruth & Gibbs

[KevTheDog]

Hi guys! Thanks for these tips. I just want to reiterate: this can happen (though does not necessarily happen) even at the very, very beginning of our walks, so again, I don't think it's just tiredness related.

But that said, I acknowledge that he's still a puppy and perhaps we're still going too long, when it happens at the end of walks. Follow-up questions: if we limit ever crossing big streets, how do we teach him the right way to cross them when he feels compelled to do this behavior? Or is the idea that if he never gets to practice the behavior then he will forget he ever did it at all?

[ShellyF]

Our guy did similar things and they have got less and less. Our eureka moment came when we realised that Merlin would get like this when he saw a car (which he normally lies down for) going into a drive. We told him to ‘walk on’ because we knew it wouldn’t go past us. He got confused because he didn’t know that it wouldn’t come past us. We recognised other scenarios where he would leash bite because he was confused and wanted direction and probably wanted off leash to run and sort it out by himself! 

We deal with it by getting him into a training mode at the very instant we see he may be confused ergo stressed. We get a treat out - not to reward him but to let him know it’s training time. If near a road we back away from a danger  area encouraging his nose to follow the treat. Then do a few lie downs and sits for the reward and then proceed to cross the road with him much more focused on whatever command we then deploy.  ‘let’s go’ is our upbeat one for let’s go play or find a treat or whatever so we can get him trotting along with that until we are safely over and then treat again. 

 

[GentleLake]

8 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

...this can happen (though does not necessarily happen) even at the very, very beginning of our walks...

When that happens I'd just turn around and go home. Hopefully in general he enjoys going for a walk and w/ luck he'll associate the abrupt return home w/ his behavior and the end of his fun. Consequences.

Shelly's recommendation that you go into full training mode at intersections is a good one. I'd do this at any intersection, even if it's not busy, to generalize it everywhere.

8 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

...if we limit ever crossing big streets, how do we teach him the right way to cross them when he feels compelled to do this behavior?...

By practicing in less stimulating intersections -- lots and lots of them -- where you can reward him for crossing calmly and avoiding the ones that trigger his tantrums until calm intersection walking is well proofed. Do this gradually, starting with intersections that are only slightly busier and work up to the busiest ones. Pair this with a cue that you can use when you eventually go back to busier intersections, just the way you'd do for a dog who, say, jumps up on people or pulls on the leash. E.g. cuing a dog to sit when he greets people or using the cue to "heel" tells the dog what you want him to do before the pulling even begins.

8 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

is the idea that if he never gets to practice the behavior then he will forget he ever did it at all?

Sort of. The point is that you're teaching him an alternative that's incompatible with the undesirable behavior, as in the examples above, at the same time as you're eliminating the self-rewarding behaviors you don't want. This both strengthens the desired response and keeps him from practicing the undesired response so that the latter isn't reinforced.

[KevTheDog]

Thank you again for these tips! I really like the idea of practicing on all intersections, even the ones that don't trigger the behavior - we will start doing that. Yesterday I used one workaround and one treat session - we walked on a path that did not involve any intersections at all, and so avoided the behavior. And in the other direction, we went into training mode at the large intersection and he was definitely too distracted by the notion of treats to be bothered with my ankles.

Train an incompatible behavior - this shall be my new mantra... thanks!

[GentleLake]

6 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

...he was definitely too distracted by the notion of treats to be bothered with my ankles.

That's great! It means his threshold's not so high that you can't work with him in these intersections now. That's a relief.

The beauty and effectiveness of teaching incompatible behaviors is what so many people who are resistant to positive reinforcement don't understand. Yes, it takes a little longer, but you develop a relationship with your dog that's so much better than one based on fear of punishment.

[WaveProfesora]

Hello,

My pup did this at ONE specific intersection at an early age. I did not address it correctly because I did not really know how to handle fear-based reactions then. Big/New intersections are still an issue (and out son recently transitioning out of a stroller and onto a scooter has set us back as he is VERY protective of his kid!).

There is no reason to know why he does this, but I can tell you this. Intersections are a TON of stimuli for a border collie--even one that isn't reactive to cars. It's a lot of things going in different directions, lights, noises--things that can drive these dogs crazy. 

If I had to do it again, I would have really worked on my dog's recall on walks EARLY (he's a solid look at me when I say, "Hey Piv?"). It's a modified "Look at that" and then do that every.single.intersection for a long time. I would also do a modified Behavior Adjustment Training set-up here. Take him to the intersection and when you see him calm down, relax, and be cool, give a verbal praise, a click and THEN (this is important) walk away from the intersection and give a treat. Reward him by taking the trigger away, not making him cross the thing that scares him. Then, slowly introduce intersections. Once you get a negative reaction, time to peace out and go home.

The above is what has gotten us through out intersection issues (though there about three intersections that will always be a challenge and I manage that/try to avoid when I can). I really wish we had dealt with this earlier on, but I just didn't have the knowledge then that I did now.

Hope this helps.

[KevTheDog]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:14 PM, WaveProfesora said:

If I had to do it again, I would have really worked on my dog's recall on walks EARLY (he's a solid look at me when I say, "Hey Piv?"). It's a modified "Look at that" and then do that every.single.intersection for a long time. I would also do a modified Behavior Adjustment Training set-up here. Take him to the intersection and when you see him calm down, relax, and be cool, give a verbal praise, a click and THEN (this is important) walk away from the intersection and give a treat. Reward him by taking the trigger away, not making him cross the thing that scares him. Then, slowly introduce intersections. Once you get a negative reaction, time to peace out and go home. 

 

Brilliant, I love this advice - thank you! I just received Control Unleashed and I'm about to start incorporating "look at that" (and more) - and it's such a fair point that intersections are super stimulating.

I'm feeling optimistic, it's been about a week since the behavior has had a chance to manifest. Progress! We'll keep at it