"Lethal" whites

[HKM's Mom]

How common are lethal whites in BC's? I ask because I just adopted a deaf dog which was supposed to be an Aussie (I have BC's), but as soon as I saw him I thought he looked more BC than Aussie. He has the BC build, face, tail w/ a curl at the tip, and one ear that will prick on occasion.

The rescue called him an Aussie because of the white coat and blue eyes - lethal whites are more common in Aussies since the merle has been in the breed for so long.

Anyway, I don't care which breed he is, but I am curious if he could be a BC. I tried to find information on them but I didn't have much luck with info addressing this in BC's. All I found was that it can happen but it's rare.

Anyone have any data on this or know if it's more common than most people think?

Thanks,

Cindi

[Eileen Stein]

In any breed, a merle bred to a merle will produce some pups (1/4 of those born, statistically) who are mostly white or all white and who are deaf and may have vision problems as well. These merle-to-merle breedings can occur accidentally, or because the breeder didn't know about this genetic phenomenon, or because one of the parents was not recognized as a merle (there are so-called "hidden merles" who have merling on only a small part of their body, but still of course carry the merle gene). Because merles are so much more common among Australian Shepherds (and desirable for the show ring), the odds of a lethal white puppy are far higher in that breed than in the border collie. Indeed, I have heard that some Aussie breeders, like some Sheltie breeders, will deliberately breed a merle to a merle because the merle coloration is more crystalline and beautiful in the "normal" (non-white) puppies resulting from such a breeding. But even though white offspring of merle-to-merle breedings are rare in border collies, they can still occur.

 

These "lethal white" border collies should not be confused with BCs who are white because they are the offspring of two white-factored dogs, and who are no more likely to be deaf than any other dog.

[HKM's Mom]

I know the merle to merle and white factor to white factor things. I just wondered if all white BC's were more common than I have read on the webpages?

I don't know if he is a 'lethal" white or just a white dog, and I don't know of any way to tell. His eyes are perfect according to the dog optho check up he had so maybe he's a white BC with blue eyes and is deaf.

Anyone else own an all white BC?

[BDW]

I own an all white BC. And since I got her I have seen at least 10 others. She is the product of two white-factored parents. She h as excellent hearing.

 

Dianne

[workindogs]

Since white factored dogs are quite common in border collies, your dog is probably the result of breeding two white factored dogs.

 

However, there are breeders who *specialize* in designer colors...merle being one of the more popular in bred to suit color design. It is possible that your dog came from a merle breeding. I even found a website of one border collie breeder who "specialized in breeding white border collies".....YUCK! YUCK! and YUCK!

 

Elizabeth

[BDW]

I would never (NEVER) breed my Extreme White to another white or a merle even if both were excellent workers, my personal preference.

 

There's lots of information regarding color and genetics in this group:

http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/HerdingK9Color

 

My little bitch is a very nice, she is biddable and has lots of stock sence. She has worked sheep, ducks, goats and cattle and will grip if necessary but mostly uses her eye.

 

I am considering breeding her based on working ability. But, I also have to be aware and responsible for what might be produced. I was told that Lethal Whites would be a rare possibility because my bitch does have enough coloring around her head/ears but, that most of the litter will probably have quite a bit of white.

 

Choice of the male is also based on working ability and he is White Factored. Hard to find a good worker who is NOT White Factored.

 

Dianne

[ikw]

>>Hard to find a good worker who is NOT White Factored.<<<

 

Huh?

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

[Eileen Stein]

I wouldn't be at all concerned about producing lethal white pups if your white BC is a product of two white-factored, non-merle parents. However, if you have a personal preference against producing predominantly white pups, you would be well advised not to breed to a white-factored stud. Certainly there are plenty of good working studs who are not white-factored, as well as plenty who are.

[brookcove]

Isn't it true that you can't really tell for sure? There's people here who are more well-read in genetics so I won't venture any more than that . . .two classically marked dogs or even a dog with little white pattern can throw whites. None of which will have a problem related to color.

 

If you breed FOR white, of course you will start getting problems since you are limiting selection based on a narrow and I think recessive trait, but pattern white and lethal double merle are completely unrelated. Double merle is ALWAYS a big mistake, though indeed there are people who produce these on purpose. The reason is that the double merle pups will themselves produce 100% merles instead of having to worry about having some of those less valuable solids popping up. From there you can produce red merles, slate blue merles (lilac), anything you want! There's a lady up in the mountains doing this, yuck, yuck yuck.

 

 

 

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Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[HKM's Mom]

Thanks for all your input. Now I am 100% sure he's a white BC and not a poorly bred Aussie. I didn't realize all white ones were that common.

Either way he's a perfect match for the family. I don't breed so both of mine are altered. They are family first, and then obedience and agility dogs.

Thanks again,

Cindi

[BPoole]

I have personally seen 3 all white bcs, and several with coloring around the head and base of tail. It's really pretty common. My female is white factored out of an solid black female and a mostly white male. Go to http://www.colliecorner.com There's a ton of pics of white dogs. Pepper's pics are at http://www.geocities.com/barbpoole

[HKM's Mom]

I guess I should have made my question a little clearer in the original post. I was asking how common ALL WHITE BC's were. My boy has two grey patches of about six hairs each, other than that he is white. If you weren't looking hard you wouldn't even see the greyish hairs. His eyes are pale blue and he has a few liver spots on his nose.

I have seen several BC's that are mostly white, but he is a "pigment challenged" baby. His eyes are clear, thank goodness, and he's an awesome dog, but I hope no one trys to breed BC's like this. His eyes can't handle the bright sun, he can burn since he has no pigment, and he's deaf. Although I love him dearly I wouldn't want someone to breed dogs like this on purpose, even if they cull the deaf ones. There's a risk of the offspring having these same problems. I don't think the average home could handle such a high drive breed with problems like this.

[BDW]

I have never seen a lethal white or all white BC. I might have run across a picture of one on the internet while doing research, but never seen one in person. The one's I have seen and the one I own have color around the eyes/ears and maybe a spot or two on their bodies, they have dark eyes and dark pigment and good hearing. These are not the same as lethal whites, they are I believe pattern whites?

 

Considering the know outcome of such breedings I don't know why anyone would breed for an 'all white' BC.

 

I admire you for caring for a deaf dog of any breed.

 

Dianne

[Eileen Stein]

HKM's Mom:

 

What color is his nose leather? What color are the rims around his eyes?

[HKM's Mom]

Eileen,

His nose and lips are pink with a few liver spots. His eye rims, foot pads, etc are all pink.

[workindogs]

I wonder if the grey patches aren't merle?

 

Just a thought.

 

Elizabeth

[HKM's Mom]

I'm pretty sure they are merle, that's why I called him a lethal white at first. I was asking how common they were in BC's because I didn't think the merle color was that common among BC's. I knew it was in Aussies, and that is why he was considered an Aussie by the rescue. If you look at his head, face, body length to heigth, tail, and build he looks all BC. I haven't found that much information on BC merle to merle breedings, so I was curious if it happened and BC just didn't talk about it as much as the Aussie people do. Anyone have any data on this in BC's?

[amc]

Could he be an albino? Is there such a thing as partial albino, thus accounting for the grey hairs and liver spots?

 

Amy

 

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Amy Coapman

Montague, in the State of Jefferson

[brookcove]

He sounds exactly like the lethal whites I've seen. The photosensitivity is another clue. If he is, the main thing you need to concern yourself with is protecting him from the sun, which I'm sure you've already discovered. If his coat is thin he can even burn on his body. I didn't know that and had one rescue here that that happened to! "Dr, what's this awful red rash on her shoulder?!?!" "Sunburn." "Oh."

 

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Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

 

 

[This message has been edited by brookcove (edited 11-26-2002).]

[SoloRiver]

There's a homozygous merle puppy available from NEBCR right now -- he's got more color on him than it sounds like the dog in question does but there are plenty of pictures on the website for comparison: http://www.nebcr.org.

 

I had always understood the term "lethal white" to refer to what happens in breeds like Dalmatians with extreme piebald spotting, rather than homozygous merles, but it seems like the term can refer to either. An article with a very impressive list of things that can go wrong with excessively white dogs is here:

http://www.flash.net/~dby/colordisease.htm

 

Re: sunburns. I think this is something to worry about on any dog with white markings and thin fur. For example, both of my dogs will visibly "tan" through the fine white fur on the tops of their noses, and Solo (the red one) has burned. Fly probably would too, but I learned better by the time I got her and now both of them get SPF 25 on their noses if we're going to be out in the sun all day. Go ahead and laugh, but hey, sunburns (probably) won't kill me either, but that doesn't make me like them any better. May as well spare the dogs.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly

[BDW]

I have seen merle BC's in Florida and in Kansas City their is a dairy farmer that has one working his herd. The one on the dairy farm was the first one I ever saw. Did not know they existed. I have not seen many but know they are out there.

 

Dianne

[BDW]

"HUH?" and "Certainly there are plenty of good working studs who are not white-factored, as well as plenty who are."

 

I am basing my statements on what I know and what I see produced. I don?t get the opportunity right now to travel here and there.

 

How does one go about finding good working males you know are not WF? My range is limited and even the males (I know) with very little white will sometimes throw white when they breed a WF female. So I assume the male is WF too?

 

Is it possible for a non WF male to produce pups with a majority of white when bred to a WF bitch? Now the percentage of these prominently white pups in the litter is small, maybe one pup in a litter. Where as I was told breeding my extreme white bitch to a WF would produce lots of white in the litter but probably no lethals.

 

I am no genetic whiz kid and I have tried to do my research. I still may or may not breed but I want to know as much as possible so I can make my decision.

 

thanks....dianne

[Eileen Stein]

http://www.flash.net/~dby/colordisease.htm >>

 

White color in border collies is a subject that has interested me for years, and I track down everything I can find relating to it. Most of the assertions and assumptions I come across seem to have very little support, either in the literature or in verifiable anecdote, even when they appear scholarly, as this article does. Lumping together all kinds of "Problems Associated with Predominately White Dogs" without much effort to differentiate among the various causes of whiteness really drives me up the wall. (No offense, Melanie. )

 

A good example is problem #17 in the article: "17. Sterility & reduced fertility. Increased incidence in mostly white pups. Quite obviously lowered reproductive success is generally expected with a bitch who cannot hear (or see) her whelps, and a deaf or blind stud dog presents obvious challenges of management as well." Really, what are we supposed to make of that? Is the reduced fertility only in deaf/blind dogs, and only listed here because white double-merle pups can be deaf/blind? Are West Highland White Terriers less fertile than black Labs? Is their hearing/vision deficient by comparison? What exactly is the relationship to whiteness?

 

The bottom line I've come up with is this. In border collies, there is no credible evidence of increased deafness (or blindness) in dogs carrying the "white-factored" (sw) allele -- i.e., white-factored dogs, or white dogs (sw, sw) produced by breeding white-factored dogs together. This type of white dog typically has some color on its head and perhaps a little bit at the base of the tail or elsewhere on the body. White on the head appears to be controlled by a different gene or combination of genes than body white, and I know of no credible evidence either way dealing with deafness in white-faced border collies. There IS proven deafness in white border collies born from a breeding between two merles.

 

Merles are not that uncommon in border collies, and there are several breeders I know of who breed for merle coloring (and probably many more I don't know of), so HKM's Mom's deaf dog could well be a white offspring of a double merle breeding. I think that's by far the most likely, based on the description given, although albinism (which is rare but not unknown in dogs) would also be a possibility. Albino doberman pinschers have blue eyes, so I assume the same could be true for an albino border collie.

 

For those who are interested, a good basic website for canine color genetics IMO is http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html A good basic comparison of double-white-factored white and double-merle white (in shelties, but the same holds true for border collies and collies) can be found at http://www.nakshatras.net/white_right.htm

[BDW]

Excellent sites. This too is a good one with a color chart. It is Rough Collies but would apply to BC. Also has good pics and one of a double dulited merle.

http://www.oricom.ca/crowned/page6.htm

 

When I owned Rough Collies my understanding was if a dog/bitch had extensive white on the rear inside flanks it was white factored. Do you believe this is an external indicator for detecting WF?

 

dianne

[SoloRiver]

White color in border collies is a subject that has interested me for years, and I track down everything I can find relating to it. Most of the assertions and assumptions I come across seem to have very little support, either in the literature or in verifiable anecdote, even when they appear scholarly, as this article does. Lumping together all kinds of "Problems Associated with Predominately White Dogs" without much effort to differentiate among the various causes of whiteness really drives me up the wall. (No offense, Melanie.)

 

None taken. It's just an article I found on Google; I agree that if one were interested in learning more about the problem it would be more profitable to explore it in all its complexity.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly