Problem solving how to handle Kevin's toe infection

[KevTheDog]

Hi all! 5 month old Kevin has what the vet described as a fungal infection on one of his front paws, between two toes (probably caused by salt/sand used to cover our snowy streets). Our experience at the vet was not great for Kevin, he was very struggly and nippy while she tried to examine his paw, and ultimately she gave him a sedative so that she could shave it and a have a look without him biting her. He wasn't growling or barking, but he was definitely scared.

So after the sedative kicked in, she managed to shave his toes and take a look, and she reckoned he has a fungal infection that we need to clean 3 times a day with an antibacterial solution and keep dry, to the best of our ability in the snowy and slushy weather we're having.

My questions are two-fold:

1. Any ideas on cleaning this puppy's paw when he is so snappy? We've tried a few routes including "Kid, this is happening whether you like it or not" (the least successful approach, as he just struggles a ton to get away), and a subtler "sneak attack" while he's snuggling on the couch with us. The latter is more successful, but it's still hard to really get in there and clean any gunk out from between his toes because more or less as soon as he realizes what's going on, he snaps with his teeth in the direction of the arm/hand cleaning the toe. I'm planning to buy some kind of super delish treats today in an effort to entice him a bit more but I'm not sure if this will be enough.

2. Any thoughts on keeping this paw dry in the snow? It has occurred to us that perhaps we should just do a lot of mental exercise indoors for a few days and not run around outside, where it is snowy everywhere. However, he still has to go outside to relieve himself so as long as it's already getting wet then I don't see the point in denying him the chance to work out some of his energy physically. We've considered boots but I'm not sure how waterproof that would actually be, plus: he will for sure hate them.

Any advice would be much appreciated. We feel that we definitely have a teenager on our hands, but his mouthiness is concerning to us. It is not biting in a scary aggressive way, but it is inappropriate mouthiness nonetheless. Older dogs I've had in my life were much more amenable to having their "owies" treated, so I'm not sure if this is a puppy thing or a personality thing (Poggin and Pelle were rescues; I didn't know them as puppies). We've instated a very strict rule about getting up and leaving Kevin immediately for 20-30 seconds every time his teeth get on us in play, even if they just brush us (since we got him, we had been using the "YOUCH!" method of letting him know his teeth hurt us, but this is definitely doing absolutely nothing now). It's hard to be trying to instate this rule while simultaneously having to treat his paw, which he really hates having done and causes him to bring those teeth out; I think the solution may sting a little bit. Ah, yes, also: he is in hardcore teething mode right now, he's lost at least 3 teeth in recent days and seems to be in pain from that some of the time too.

 

Anyway...advice would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance!

[Mandy1961]

I only managed to clip our 8 month olds claws once, that was because I had some lightly poached liver. I have tried since, but Harry will have none of it. When we come in from the wet (we did not get any snow), my husband cleans his paws while I feed him his biscuits. He just about puts up with it. Harry now has his claws clipped at the groomers, where he sits and lets them do everything. 

[KevTheDog]

30 minutes ago, Mandy1961 said:

Harry now has his claws clipped at the groomers, where he sits and lets them do everything.  

Mandy what a funny thing! Kevin is like this too; he recently caught on to the fact that when he's in one of our laps eating treats, the other one is going to clip his claws (or what have you) and would have none of it (after tolerating it quite well when he was a younger puppy). But at the vet, particularly once she took him out of the room and away from us, he totally let her clip his claws without making a huge fuss.

[amc]

May I highly recommend the following webpage: https://fearfreehappyhomes.com/category/explore/grooming/  and please surf around the entire excellent website.  My friend is a certified Fear Free Vet Tech Trainer who, in addition to her clinical work, travels around the country teaching the seminars.  You can join for free and receive basic benefits, plus there are additional reasonably priced membership levels allowing more access.  Monique is also a working border collie trainer, trialer and handler!

Good luck, and keep us posted,

Amy, 

[GentleLake]

I'd begin some desensitization work with his paws right away. Even when it's cleared up I'd continue it until he's OK with having his feet (and other sensitive body parts) handled. Be prepared for the possibility that this could be a lifelong project. If the vet allows it, some quick trips in just to say hi and get lots of treats in a non-scary situation would probably help too.

I'd highly recommend booties for dealing with winter salt. The facilities I visit with my therapy dog always use tons of the stuff, so I ended up getting boots. I really like the ones from Ruffwear: https://ruffwear.com/collections/dog-boots  They're expensive but well made and easy to put on. What I like best about them is that you can buy them in pairs rather than sets of 4. Many dogs, including mine, have different sized front and rear paws so this way you get a really good fit.  I chose the Summit Trex boots because Bodhi only needs them for short periods (I take them off once we're inside the facility) but there are more rugged options available too. (The Summit Trex are pretty rugged IMO, but I suppose some of the others might be better for hard use.)

BTW, it's not unusual for a dog to acquiesce to handling from others that they won't tolerate from their owners. I think it's a great example of familiarity breeding contempt. Not actual contempt, but the feeling that they can get away with resisting things from us that they wouldn't try with someone unfamiliar, that they don't know how they'll react back. Almost like they're a little in shock in a different place with a different person and they go into the freeze reaction (rather than fight or flight) and before they know it it's all over.

[D'Elle]

Definitely work on a desensitizing protocol with this dog because you will need to be able to handle his paws and do grooming in the future. Use very high value treats when you are working on this. In the meantime, if you have someone to help you have the other person feeding good treats non-stop while you do the cleaning as quickly as possible. But continue the desensitization after the infection is cleared up.

 

7 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

We've instated a very strict rule about getting up and leaving Kevin immediately for 20-30 seconds every time his teeth get on us in play, even if they just brush us (since we got him, we had been using the "YOUCH!" method of letting him know his teeth hurt us, but this is definitely doing absolutely nothing now)

I would suggest that you put the dog into a crate immediately when this happens. Cover the crate or have it in another room entirely, so that he cannot see you any more. Isolate and contain him, don't just walk away from him, and make the isolation last for 5 minutes each time. Let him out without fanfare, and continue with what you were doing. Do this every single time that he even tries to nip. 

[KevTheDog]

19 hours ago, D'Elle said:

 

I would suggest that you put the dog into a crate immediately when this happens. Cover the crate or have it in another room entirely, so that he cannot see you any more. Isolate and contain him, don't just walk away from him, and make the isolation last for 5 minutes each time. Let him out without fanfare, and continue with what you were doing. Do this every single time that he even tries to nip.  

Our issue is that crate training is illegal in Sweden, where we live, so we don't have that as an option. What we do have is our puppy-proofed kitchen, but when I pop on his leash to take him there for a timeout, he goes totally floppy like a noodle and I have to drag him all the way there (he's too heavy for me to lift, unfortunately, although my husband can lift him). So we have to work within the legal confines of our no-crate-training-allowed country. When I first learned that it was not permitted, about a week before we went to pick up Kevin, I freaked out - how do people have dogs without crate training!? But of course you adapt. It just isn't ideal; I would love to be able to do this.

Thanks to everyone for these awesome suggestions - we'll start hunting for a good pair of pup booties, and we're already working on desensitizing him to having his feet and ears touched in general.

 

[D'Elle]

I have heard of this no-crates thing in Sweden. Probably it is a well intentioned law but sadly misguided. Can you use an X-pen to make an area of the kitchen smaller so that the confinement is more or less the same as a crate? Or do you have a small room - bathroom or store room perhaps - where he could be confined? Just ideas. 

[KevTheDog]

16 hours ago, D'Elle said:

I have heard of this no-crates thing in Sweden. Probably it is a well intentioned law but sadly misguided. Can you use an X-pen to make an area of the kitchen smaller so that the confinement is more or less the same as a crate? Or do you have a small room - bathroom or store room perhaps - where he could be confined? Just ideas. 

Fine ideas indeed! We do have a bathroom (phew, amiright? ) where he could be confined, but we've never used it for this purpose - he's only been in there for shower time, which he hates (he whimpers and is mr. pathetic the whole time); otherwise, he stays out of the bathroom even if the door is wide open. So could the bathroom be just the trick, or would it be kind of cruel?  The other consideration is this: while my husband can scoop up Kevin and pop him into any space, for me, moving Kevin requires clipping on his leash and luring or dragging him to a space, which is often quite cumbersome because, as I said above, he goes totally limp and floppy and has to be dragged along; it takes time (I have an old back injury that prevents me from being able to pick him up). So the question is: does the amount of time the process of moving him takes make it less effective - has he forgotten why he's being dragged into a confinement area by the time he gets there? Compare this with the speed with which I can simply get up and walk away from him.

 

[KevTheDog]

Also a positive update! During our training this morning, about 3 times Kevin's teeth got on me (no pressure at all, just general excitement about his toys and getting at them) and each time, I swiftly gathered up the two toys and my treat jar, and popped myself into the bedroom and closed the door. I waited there for a good minute or so, during which Kevin waited just outside the door, barked once or twice...when he was quiet again, I came back out and said "Ok, this time without teeth." While we certainly didn't have a teeth-free training session, I do think that my leaving made him think, "Hey, this sucks, I was having a good time." I think this is good!

[D'Elle]

Ha-ha, I did not of course mean "do you have a bathroom?"  Only, do you have one which can be used.....meaning can it be made useful for this or is it configured in such a way as to make it impossible to dog-proof etc. I sympathize with your situation of not being able to pick him up and while I don't think using the bathroom is actually cruel  I personally would really hate dragging a dog along the floor. And that, too, is not great for your back. I think putting yourself in the bathroom was a clever idea but is not really a solution for ongoing action. If you have an X-pen, it might be easier to get him into that - I don't know the layout of your house so don't know which is harder. Or do you have an area that can be closed off in your yard? The point is simply to confine him away from you, so maybe you could brainstorm on ways in which you could do that, and have more than one way of doing it depending on where in the house you are when it is needed. Maybe just taking the dog out of whatever room you are in and then leaving him out of the room with the door shut between you while you go back to what you were doing would be enough. I have seen this work well with some dogs for whom the consequence of not being allowed to be with the person was plenty to get the point across.

[GentleLake]

I think the human going into another room and closing the door is ingenious. If you stop to think about it, it's really a lot closer to what they'd experience with other dogs when they get too rough as opposed to being put in a crate or another room for a time out. Puppy gets too rough with her litter mates? The other puppies stop playing and go off to do something else. Same with the adult dogs I've known.

Yep. I think this is good. I hope it works well for you.

[KevTheDog]

We're keeping it up with shutting ourselves into a space away from him for now - this seems to be, if not fully working yet to keep his teeth off us (again, to clarify: I'm not talking scary biting, I'm talking "we are playing, whoops got my teeth on you" OR "air bite, air bite, stop fiddling with my paws"), it at least has an affect in the moment ("Where'd you go, ma?"). I would say this: no obvious effects yet, but it's been about 3 days of this protocol so I imagine it'll take some time.

As far as his nail goes: we've been trucking along with the sneak attack method. Unfortunately though, while giving him a shower last night we got a really good look at it (poor guy was too disturbed by being in the shower to be concerned about us looking at his toe) and it doesn't look great. So my husband is taking him back to the vet on Monday for a follow up, sigh. And doggy boot shopping this weekend.

May this snow melt and begone! Our streets are just disgusting right now, I feel bad for all the dogs.