Mary & Dogs Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 I had someone e-mail me saying that they felt that hip problems were a really big problem in border collies today. Or at least a bigger problem than I realized. The breeders that I know are careful about eyes and hips - so I may be really out of touch on this issue. Do you have any idea how prevalent this problem is - especially in the working dogs? ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 Mary - the ABCA site has links to "discourses" on the genetic issues as posted by Denise and other members of the ABCA Genetics Committee. The statistics quoted about CHD "place the Border Collie in the middle" of other breeds of dogs. ANY genetic disease can be a problem if disregarded. ANY genetic disease can be minimized by proper forethought. That's why it's important to know the lines of the dog's being bred... Don't be confused by the term "OFA" - that simply stands for the "Orthopedic Foundation for Animals" a private organization that evaluates xrays that are sent in by various vets around the country - and rates them on some scale, according to orthopods I've spoken with, on a rating system that can vary in its accuracy depending on who does them. Having a dog that has been "ofa'd" simply means some vet sent in the xray - it is the rating that can actually mean something - arguably. Arguably (the rating) from a political standpoint, not arguably (structurally) from a genetic standpoint. Currently OFA ratings require a microchip in the dog, something that is a bit of a political decision by itself. There are many dogs that have been rated VERY differently from the OFA when done with the Penn-Hip method and the ABCA Genetic site lists a recommended position to put the dog in as well - a position that is very different than many local vets put the dog in when taking the xrays. So ask the person who emailed you for "proof" that it is a "really big problem" in working dogs...and not just political smoke... By the way, the discourse above talks about perhaps the incidence of CHD being as much as twice as high as the statistics show - that assumption would apply to every breed of dog - keeping the "scale" in the same place. One could also argue, if one wanted to quibble with that type of assumption being made, statistically, that since versatile breeders and conformation breeders are the only folks who have "flocked" to the OFA in an effort to "prove" thier genetics instead of proving them on the trial field, that those statistics are only relevant when applied to conformation dogs - and that since many working dogs are worked well into their "old age" - well, draw your own conclusions... To me, it still looks as if the evil empire is pi**ing in the wind... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted November 18, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 ok. Let me just say one more thing here. And I am no expert on this. I have a friend who had her dog x-rayed and the report came back that her dog had severe dysplasia. Now - that same dog worked just about every day of her life - and never showed any evidence of discomfort. I had never seen real dysplasia until I saw the rottweiler next door to me. He has dysplasia. His back hip bone doesn't stay in the socket - you can see it slide sideways. He cannot carry weight on that leg. He walks very slowly with a severe limp. He can run only for very short distances. Now, it can be argued that a border collie has so much heart and such a desire to work that it will continue to work even if it is in great pain. I don't think that any dog could work - no matter how much heart it has - with a hip like the one my next door neighbor's dog has. It simply would be physically impossible. And, even if the case was not that severe, I think it would be evident that the dog was having trouble. After working the dog would be very stiff and sore and have a lot of trouble getting up and down. I have been out around a lot of working dogs and I just don't think I have seen any evidence of dogs working with hip problems. I mean, I notice those things. But, I also think it is important to know if hip problems are a growing problem - if puppies are having to be put down because of their hips. That is something that I would never know because I never see puppies. I would only see the dogs that were OK. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 I am NOT a vet, nor do I - well, you know . . . Anyway, I've heard a rumor that all this OFAing may be unnessarily defaming the Border Collie. That the hips in a BC are often looser, giving an appearance of dysplaysia where none exists. Even of severe displaysia. I had a friend who bought a bitch that had been rated Poor though she was completely asymptomatic. He intended to spay her and sell her as a pet. Well, he's the kind of guy who can't stand to have a dog around and not try them on stock. He did and long story short he ended up qualifying her for the Finals and reselling her to a novice. Sometime before he sold her, he had her hips redone. She passed. The moral? I dunno, maybe there isn't, it's just an anecdote after all. But I'm getting more and more suspicious of this emphasis on medical testing, especially as we see a (corresponding?) de-emphasis of evaluation against a working standard. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 I forgot to mention - the bitch still got spayed - but mostly because the guy thought she was too "soft". (c: ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 Well, Denise is the geneticist, and she and I have had some heated discussions about this topic... She has convinced me that she knows what she is saying - actually, I think more like she has managed to explain to me in a way I understand... She insists on an emphasis on having the hips checked - she and I disagree a bit on the competency and general attitude of some of the folks doing them - but she has not, I believe, ever said to NOT breed anything (except severely dysplastic dogs) - encouraging the breeding of fairs to goods (or better) if possible, and using one's judgement if considering fairs to fairs - only if there is a good reason to do so... Maybe she will jump in and correct me if I have interpreted her wrongly...but the point is, herding ability is still the paramount "score" - hips are part of a complicated process in those decisions. I too agree with Rebecca's suspicions - most of the vets at the OFA wouldn't recognize a working dog from a shitzu - something the orthopods at the U of MN have mentioned to me when we discuss the hips of a three year old working dog and just exactly how much WORK and wear and tear the dog has undergone BEFORE deciding on a "rating"...I beleive they understand that a "rating" cannot be done, properly, in a vacuum... By the way, some time ago, I used a solid modeling CAD program to construct a Border Collies Hip Structure and then used a Finite Element Analysis package to evaluate the stress on the structure with different levels of coverage of the ball and the socket - and found that what many think is a "fair" covering to have the least amount of stress when in a "crouch". Please DO NOT take that with too much scientific analysis though - it was ONE hip modeled in ONE circumstance - by an engineer, not a orthopod... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted November 18, 2002 Report Share Posted November 18, 2002 Mary, Hip Dysplasia is a significant health problem in Border Collies. OFA reports the incidence of HD in the Border Collie to be 12.3% from 4,587 dogs evaluationed between Jan 1974- Dec 2001. They ranked 71st out of the 132 reported breeds. The number one highest incidence was the bulldog at 75.1%. Ranking at 132 was the Australian Terrier at 0.8%. These data are available at http://www.offa.org/hdstats.html Improvements over time in all breeds ( http://www.offa.org/hdtrend.html ): Change from 1980-1994-95 TOTAL OF ALL BREEDS 57,260 Excellent +52.6% Dysplastic -28.2% IOW, OFA figures show a 52% increase in OFA excellent ratings and a decrease of 28% in HD over this period of time. They conclude there has been an overall improvement in hip status over all evaluated breeds from 1980-1995. Since many vets screen OFA films for before submission, the incidence in Border Collies (as well as the reported incidence in other breeds) is probably higher than the 12% figure, possibly twice that figure, meaning one in every four or five Border Collies has HD by radiology. However, people I've talked to who x-ray large numbers of working dogs estimate only about one in three of those that are diagnosed with HD will exhibit symptoms in their early working career. *********************** Rebecca, And anyone else interested, I address laxity in Border Collies in an article at: http://www.stilhope.com/hipartical.htm More info on HD and breed incidence can be found under "Health and Genetics of the Border Collie" at: http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ ******************** Bill G., From OFA site ( http://www.offa.org/breaknews.html ): "Changes in Permanent I.D. and Numbering Effective January 1, 2001, the OFA has adopted a policy acknowledging animals that have been submitted for inclusion in our databases that have permanent identification in the form of DNA profile, microchip, or tattoo with a suffix of "-PI" instead of "-T". Animals not permanently identified will continue to be evaluated; however, they will be issued a number clearly indicating that the animal has no permanent identification, for example: With permanent identification LR-12345G24F-PI Without permanent identification LR-12345G24F-NOPI" IOW, you don't need permanent ID, they just designate those dogs that do. Denise [This message has been edited by C Denise Wall (edited 11-19-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 I normally try to stay out of these discussions since many folks belief in OFA--one way or the other is akin to a religion. Not wanting to be argumentative here. What I see as one of the biggest problems is that many do and will use an OFA (or Penn-Hip FTM) rating as a marketing tool, not as a 'breeders'tool, totally disregarding the total dog--working ability (of which the joints are a definite part), temperment,structure and general health in favor of that rating. A few years back I was at an AKC trial and saw a Barbie win the HIT. The dog's work was very poor at best, barely able to keep the 'school sheep' to the handler's knees--and this was a pretty capable handler. The owner was all bragging about his OFA 'excellent' rating like everyone there should breed to that dog. Turned out he was sired by a CL carrier, and was used for breeding--after all, he did have OFA 'Excellent' hips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 Thanks for the clarification on the ID thing, Denise. For political reasons I still will use my orthopods at the University of Minnesota Veterinary Teaching Hospital rather than the folks at the OFA... After all, I'm interested in breeding information - not in marketing - as Pam points out. Like her, I think OFA has become a marketing tool - I've overheard too many comments similar to the one she mentioned to list here...and I really don't care about marketing. Unfortunately, many in the evil empire DO - and are taking statistics and qoutes completely out of context and using them - not for the betterment of the breed, but for personal aggrandizement and gain... Lies. Damn lies. And Statistics. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Hunt Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 Can anyone tell me how many BCs are now in the Pennhip db and what the average DI is for the breed now? One of my frustrations with Pennhip, from a consumers point of view, is the lack of published information as compared to OFA's program. Having spend a couple hundred bucks to have my dog Pennhipped 2 years ago it sure would be nice if they'd publish up to date breed stats on the web. I understand they only send stats to Pennhip vets? When my Pennhip evaluation was done they had a grand total of 338 BCs in their database, I can't believe that's a statistically valid sample size. Thanks, Julia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 Julia, "Can anyone tell me how many BCs are now in the Pennhip db and what the average DI is for the breed now?" From http://www.stilhope.com/hipartical.htm Border Collie Mean DI 0.50 1983- Apr 2001 Total Dogs 371 From PennHIP Quarterly Newlsletter April 2001 (Permission to publish granted). ******** These are the latest figures I have. I don't think there's been a huge increase in dogs evaluated since then. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Mary, Dogs have different pain thresholds just as people do, some severely dysplastic. I know a golden retriever that has severe dysplastic hips. He plays on my flyball team and is quite fast. During actual racing you would never know this dog had such bad hips but when you see him walk, you can see the uneven hips and popping. Yeah, he will limp for a day or 2 after a tourney but if you look at the big picture, a dog needs exercise to keep the muscles built up. The owner learned this first hand when her family moved here from CA. Her dogs played all the time with each other, she threw the ball for him, and stuff like that but his hip and knee (had ccl/acl surgery on one of his knees)were starting to atrophy after being out of flyball for 3 months. Once she got him back in flyball he started regaining the muscle he lost. So after all my rambling, I guess the moral of this story is, that many dogs may have hip dysplasia but they will all react differently depending on their training. The more muscle around the hips will take some pressure off of the hips, cause less pain and possible make them seem like normal happy dogs. Many people that have dogs with ortho problems let their dogs do nothing exercise wise which in my opinion only makes the problem worse. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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