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reploidphoenix

Keeping a reactive dog occupied

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Um.


It is extremely appropriate for a dog to respond to another dog correcting them by backing off briefly and then re-engaging in play.  If you mean the correction itself overtly and immediately excites him and there isn't even a brief pause (and I mean a second), yeah, step in and ask him to take it down a notch - but that's still not abnormal.  It's teenaged puppy.  They're often idiots.


AND YES SNIFFING A FEMALE DOG'S BUTT is just... a dog. 


I... am starting to wonder if you actually have much experience with border collies, male dogs, or puppies.  I mean clearly you have a female, but.  From what I'm seeing and hearing you're calling a lot of normal dog behavior a Major Problem.   And it's confusing me.

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I meant for lola(my bitch) snaps at him for sniffing her in season. To HER its crossing a line, not with me. (Its the only time she seems to snap at him) Hes a horny little adolescent pup. What I mean about him thinking correction is funny is my in laws German shepherd will snap and bark at him, and hell run circles around the room as if he thinks shes playing. She cant catch him, so he continues egging her on running away from her..running up and biting her then running away. It's like he doesnt understand her language. 

Lola does hide sometimes when he gets too rough..even though in this video shes instigating with the bark. Theres times we play and shell grab the ball first and hell come barreling at her full speed and bite her, making her flip and roll. Theres times shes dropped the ball and will refuse to play with me because she doesnt want to get chased down or bit. It's not intentional aggression on his part from what I can tell...just being rowdy 

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In another thread you mentioned that Wellington had suddenly started marking in the house.  Did this by any chance coincide with when Iola was in season? Because, if so, normal.

As for Wellington's reaction to the GSD snapping and barking, maybe she IS playing.  Or, maybe she's not, and he's trying to entice her to play.  Either way, normal.

When you throw a ball and your other dog gets to it first, he takes it away from her.  Normal.  She may not like it, and you may have to play fetch with her separately, or put him on a leash while you throw the ball for her, but normal.  As he gets older you maybe able to teach him to stay while you toss the ball for her, and then for her to stay while you toss the ball for him.  But it will take time to teach that, and you'll start by teaching a good solid stay in lots of other circumstances first.  Meanwhile, tossing a ball in the presence of two dogs who like balls, and one of them grabs the ball from the other?  NORMAL.

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It's not intentional aggression on his part from what I can tell...just being rowdy 

Yes.  Exactly.  Being rowdy is the prime directive in the adolescent dog job manual.  Perhaps somewhat more so with males, and perhaps somewhat more so with border collies, but  basically you are describing a young dog being a young dog.   Most young dogs can learn over time to behave civilly, just as most young humans can.  But they have to learn that behavior, and it takes time to download, it doesn't come pre-installed. 

 

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I guess my girl was so good at a young age I took her awsome behavior for granted and see his as a bit abnormal.  I was able at 8 months to leave her home while I was at work for 7+ hours. I cant even leave him alone at 10 months while I take a shower or he ends up getting into something. Last time I tried he was chewing on my bathing suit lol. Today I caught him chewing on the cord to my electric blanket. He has PLENTY to chew on....so yeah .The marking did not coincide with her heat, but it has been corrected atleast inside the house. Were still working on public places with the marking. 

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Your video of your two dogs playing is similar to what happens between our boy and our cat. Although she doesn't want to play so she'll sit behind/under of something while he bounces around barking, bowing and wagging his tail. She'll hiss at him which eggs him on, and then eventually runs out and swipes him and he retreats. She really doesn't want to play with him and she makes it clear enough that he leaves her alone once she's told him. I tend to try and distract him now if I see that game start to play out, although sometimes it certainly looks like the cat is enticing him. She'll do things like sit right next to his food bowls or toys and glare at him trying to creep round her to get to them.

Our boy suddenly seems to be back into everything again. He was very good at not touching things that aren't his but in the last couple of days it has felt like I've spent all my time at home taking things away from him. Up until now if he's been exercised and trained I could give him a Kong or chew and leave him to chew and sleep for a couple of hours.

If neither of them have been altered, how are you going to avoid having puppies?

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The Male will be getting fixed. I'm waiting for them to be old enough. I think it was recommended 14 months atleast to give their growth plates time to close? For now I just her diaper on her through her heat up until her swelling is gone. She honestly snaps at him if he tries to even sniff her during that time..so I dont think shed let him mount.

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6 minutes ago, reploidphoenix said:

She honestly snaps at him if he tries to even sniff her during that time..so I dont think shed let him mount.

I'm assuming that you're not counting on her rebuffs to continue throughout her cycle, as this is not at all unusual in bitches who later accept the male.

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1 hour ago, reploidphoenix said:

...She honestly snaps at him if he tries to even sniff her during that time..so I dont think shed let him mount.

That happens when the male's interested but she's not yet receptive. When she is, all bets are off and she'll not only stop snapping at him but will do everything she can to get him to mount her,  so don't count on that to work through a whole cycle, at least not forever.

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For now I just her diaper on her through her heat up until her swelling is gone. She honestly snaps at him if he tries to even sniff her during that time..so I dont think shed let him mount.

YIKERS.  Dogs have been known to mate with a chain link fence between them.   A pair of panties will keep Iola from dripping blood on your floor, but they aren't going to do anything to prevent breeding.   And as others have said, the fact that Iola snaps at Wellington means nothing.  She'll snap at  him until she decides she's ready, and the way that you'll know she's ready is that she'll allow him to mount her. 

Go to this site and read it.  Here's one relevant quote from the site:

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Britches are special panties for dogs that may help prevent unwanted pregnancies when worn properly. However, always keep dogs supervised, as they are not mistake-proof and many female dogs have gotten pregnant despite wearing these. Britches can't prevent pregnancy, but can make things a bit more challenging so that you have time to quickly intervene.  (Emphasis added by me)

Keep your two dogs separated for at least 3 weeks from the time Iola first came in season.  Separated means one dog is crated in a different room with the door to the crate and the door to the room both closed.   Breeders with tons of experience raising litters spend big bucks on progesterone tests to determine when exactly in her heat cycle a bitch is fertile.  Don't assume you can determine that by how swollen she is.  You can't. 

I understand you wanting to delay neutering Wellington until he is physically mature.  I would make the same decision myself.  But if you choose to keep intact dogs and bitches in the same home, you need to educate yourself on what is involved in preventing breeding.   Google is your friend.  Your vet is your friend.  Experienced breeders are your friend.  Don't fool around with this unless you want to be posting in about 3 weeks that you are afraid Iola might be pregnant and you don't know what to do.

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My friend that has Lola's sister has an intact Male. She wouldn't let him near her the same way. They had them in the same house for over 6 years lol. The diaper she has is pretty tight and her tail barely fits through the hole. Theres no possible way they could mate with it on. I honestly waited until he lost interest in following her around. Her bleeding is heavy and usually lasts a little over 3 weeks. I kept the diaper on an extra week or so after that. Hell probably be fixed by the time she comes into season again

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Theres no possible way they could mate with it on.

"With it on" are the operative words here.  It would take a matter of seconds for a dog to chew or pull a doggy chastity belt off.   You are lucky that Wellington is young and probably less determined than he would be if he were older.  You reeeaaaallllly need to talk to some experienced dog breeders and/or veterinarians before you keep an intact male and an in-season female in the same household again.   Normally, I'm not a big proponent of neutering dogs.  In your case, absolutely make sure Wellington is neutered before Lola comes into season again.

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Please stop using what other dogs do to predict your dogs' behaviors, whether they're related or not. It's simply not reasonable to expect any dog to behave like another one does, and if you do, sooner or later you're bound to find out how unreliable it is.

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On 1/31/2019 at 11:01 AM, reploidphoenix said:

His rough play seems to be over-arousal,  but theres very little warning. Hes fine one minute and then bursts into energy out of no where and becomes nuts.

There is warning (as you say: "very little warning"). There is always some warning; you just have to be observant enough of your dog that you learn to recognize it so that you can step in. These things a dog does are never truly "out of nowhere", and if you watch your dog closely enough and continue with this daily observation of him you will learn his "tells", as I have said before. Observe your dog as much of the time as possible and you will learn your dog.

In this video you post I see no problem whatever. I see two dogs playing. I also agree with Hooper2 above that sniffing an intact female in heat is nothing remotely over the top. I wonder why you are permitting contact between this young dog and the intact female at all, unless your male dog is neutered. And if he is neutered, what harm is there in sniffing her?  Your other dog was hiding under the chair as part of the play; in a later moment he was under the chair. I think you are reading into this too much, seeing problems where there are none, just ordinary dog behavior, same as your earlier video of your dog yipping at the fence. Perhaps if you can calm down and realize that all of this behavior is normal and harmless things will be better for you with this dog. Unless there is behavior that is much more severe than what you have shown us so far, you have nothing about which to worry or complain with this dog. 

 

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I agree with D'Elle on this. After your boy comes out from under the chair, he does make contact with your female, who is very tentative. However, in a lovely move of appropriate interaction, he backs up and does a play bow after she reaches over him with her front leg. Sometimes it is easy to see the challenges with adolescent dogs, but it might help to recognize the positives as well.

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I am going to give you some free advice that you didn't ask for.


Stop calling him reactive.  Stop thinking of him as reactive.   Stop using the term altogether.  
 

I would, for the record, say the same thing if he was absolutely showing enormous signs of over-reaction in response to stimulus and fit neatly into the definition most commonly used for 'reactivity' in dogs. 


It's not useful.  It turns him into a Problem.   It has negative impact on your relationship.  It makes you less likely to try things and more likely to give up on him (this is true for everyone, I'm using a general you). 

Look at your dog.  Look at your dog's behavior.  Work to get him where you want him to be.   Do things with him that are fun for both of you.  But don't label him, because the label will eventually define him in your mind.  Labels are HARD to mentally remove, and they can really, really, massively get in your way and limit both of you.

 

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Just to expand on my post... This does seem to be a case of "she's just not that into you".  I can see where a young, rambunctious dog's attempts to engage might turn obnoxious. However, although your girl is tentative and unsure, she doesn't seem to have made up her mind that he is being utterly offensive. When she does, it's time to separate them. Still, it is clear from his body language that he really is just trying to coax her out and engage her in play, and she gets that and engages him a bit. It is all perfectly normal. He is a lovely dog.

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He IS a reactive dog per the trainers I've met with. By reactive, I mean he barks at theTV, reflections, strangers, noises outside, objects like buckets or things laying around. Sometimes he just barks out of no where all triggered. It's a confidence issue that is being worked on and we have made SOME progress. He wears a thundershirt alot and the trainer is doing tellington t touch along with positive training. He will never be 100%, but he has gotten better. Sounds that used to set him off immediately he can now ignore most of the time unless hes tired.

Hes honestly very sweet and very loving..hes just very unconfident. He is what he is. All I can do with a trainer is help him cope better in situations that scare him

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