Seemingly unhappy 10 week old

[terrecar]

Simply sitting and watching, or even staring, is by no means limited to Border Collies. Good grief, if that bothers a person, maybe instead of a dog they should get a parakeet.

[GentleLake]

50 minutes ago, terrecar said:

Simply sitting and watching, or even staring, is by no means limited to Border Collies. Good grief, if that bothers a person, maybe instead of a dog they should get a parakeet.

I agree.

I've been saying for many years that most people who won't do well with a border collie really shouldn't have any dog at all.

That's not to say that ppl can't have preferences in the kinds of dog they like. But honestly, border collies are just dogs and though maybe a little quirkier and more intense, everything they do is just dog stuff.

 

[Rush Fan]

Delete

Edited January 23, 2019 by Rush Fan

[Rush Fan]

3 hours ago, ShellyF said:

So true! I’d be super lazy if it weren’t for Merlin. And yes they are happy to be trained to do anything haha! 

Omg that's hilarious! I take it he's conquered his fear of the piggy? 

[ShellyF]

32 minutes ago, Rush Fan said:

Omg that's hilarious! I take it he's conquered his fear of the piggy? 

Not quite lol! He’s not ‘scared’ that’s for sure but when we have had enough of his silliness and want to relax we put a piggy next to us on the sofa and say ‘the shop’s closed Merlin!’ 

I think it’s more a case of ‘respect the pig’ haha! 

[Rush Fan]

43 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

Not quite lol! He’s not ‘scared’ that’s for sure but when we have had enough of his silliness and want to relax we put a piggy next to us on the sofa and say ‘the shop’s closed Merlin!’ 

I think it’s more a case of ‘respect the pig’ haha! 

[D'Elle]

19 hours ago, GentleLake said:

I agree.

I've been saying for many years that most people who won't do well with a border collie really shouldn't have any dog at all.

That's not to say that ppl can't have preferences in the kinds of dog they like. But honestly, border collies are just dogs and though maybe a little quirkier and more intense, everything they do is just dog stuff.

 

I have to beg to differ with you on this, GL. Border collies are different. While everything they do is certainly dog stuff, they are kind of  dog squared. And then multiplied.

Some people really do fine with a dog, but the dog they do fine with is a couch potato who is perfectly happy with a couple of walks around the block per day. Or dogs who are very small, so the around-the-block is all they can do. Or someone who is disabled, and can give a good life to a small mellow dog but would not be able to handle a border collie.  Or....well, you see what I mean.

Breeds and sizes are very different, and I have known people who did very well with their poodle, say, but would not remotely be able to manage a border collie, nor would they want to. There's a dog suitable for everyone who wants one, and while the principles of training and how to treat a dog don't vary with the size or breed, a lot of other things do.

[GentleLake]

30 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

While everything they do is certainly dog stuff, they are kind of  dog squared. And then multiplied.

Yeah, that's what I said, just differently, with "a little quirkier and more intense."

While not everyone may want the quirks and intensity, if they're doing well with their other types of dogs, I remain convinced that they could manage a border collie if they wanted to. E.g. I know someone who has silken windhounds (fka long haired whippets) who's repeatedly told me she didn't think she could handle a border collie, but her dogs are no less active or quirky than border collies. She'd do  just fine with one; she just doesn't like them.

I've been disabled for the last 20 years and my border collies have all accommodated my limitations just fine.

I still stand by my statement that most people who couldn't deal with a border collie wouldn't do well with any dog, because they simply don't understand dogs or training or the need to be consistent and so will fail at having a well mannered dog with whatever kind of dog they have. I've seen it too many times.

But that's my opinion and it's OK if we have different takes on this.

ETA: I'm basing my opinion on years of talking to people who are/were having issues with their border collies that in no way are/were border collie specific. Almost always, just as the questions we get here, whatever problems they were having were just general dog management/training issues that need to be addressed and not anything that doesn't occur with dogs in general. The rescue I volunteer with gets inquiries all the time for referrals to trainers (not sheep dog trainers, just general obedience/manners trainers) who specialize in border collies. Of all the trainers I've personally worked with over the past 40 years, not one of them owned a border collie her- or himself and not one of them was especially familiar with border collies specifically.

[Rush Fan]

On 1/24/2019 at 10:15 AM, D'Elle said:

I have to beg to differ with you on this, GL. Border collies are different. While everything they do is certainly dog stuff, they are kind of  dog squared. And then multiplied.

Some people really do fine with a dog, but the dog they do fine with is a couch potato who is perfectly happy with a couple of walks around the block per day. Or dogs who are very small, so the around-the-block is all they can do. Or someone who is disabled, and can give a good life to a small mellow dog but would not be able to handle a border collie.  Or....well, you see what I mean.

Breeds and sizes are very different, and I have known people who did very well with their poodle, say, but would not remotely be able to manage a border collie, nor would they want to. There's a dog suitable for everyone who wants one, and while the principles of training and how to treat a dog don't vary with the size or breed, a lot of other things do.

Agree with this 100%. Especially if raising from a pup. I have been part of raising a few puppies, but had no idea what I was getting myself into when I brought home my BC puppy. I'm a dog person to the max, so all has turned out well, but I will be careful as to who I might recommend a BC puppy to.

[Icaraa]

18 hours ago, Rush Fan said:

Agree with this 100%. Especially if raising from a pup. I have been part of raising a few puppies, but had no idea what I was getting myself into when I brought home my BC puppy. I'm a dog person to the max, so all has turned out well, but I will be careful as to who I might recommend a BC puppy to.

Although I can see your point, it does depend on the dog. 

 

Our Ben is 9 months old. I don’t think he’s hard work at all and anyone that’s had any kind of larger dog would be just fine with him. He doesn’t NEED loads of exercise, don’t go mad on days when he gets less, hasn’t wrecked the house, is good on his own, is gentle and loves people. I could go on. 

He’s generally just a good dog. He differs in that he’s clearly more intelligent than most dogs. But that doesn’t mean he’s a little brat too. 

However I couldn’t recommend the breed as I’ve only had 2 of them. The other was like Ben too! But if you guys are saying I shouldn’t recommend them, then in some ways I’ve got to go with that. I might just have been lucky, twice. 

[GentleLake]

I don't often recommend them to people simply because their increased and still increasing popularity has resulted in waaaaay too many of them being irresponsibly bred for reasons other than working ability.  It's really changing the breed in general in terms of what's available outside the working sheepdog community. <sigh> There are plenty of pet breeds for people who don't understand or really even appreciate the special characteristics of this working breed.

[Icaraa]

26 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

I don't often recommend them to people simply because their increased and still increasing popularity has resulted in waaaaay too many of them being irresponsibly bred for reasons other than working ability.  It's really changing the breed in general in terms of what's available outside the working sheepdog community. <sigh> There are plenty of pet breeds for people who don't understand or really even appreciate the special characteristics of this working breed.

That’s true. I don’t know where you are (I’m in the UK) but anecdotally I’m hearing the same. 

Even here where the breed originates their popularity appears to be increasing in recent years. The farm we got Ben from told us that the whole litter have gone as pets. The previous litter was half and half she said. Half went to farmers as working dogs and half as pets. 

People here seem to like the idea of a really intelligent dog, and it’s common knowledge here that they are the most intelligent breed. One of the things that’s driving their popularity I think. 

In Ben’s case his intelligence has helped us, he just seems to get things easily and is super easy to train. Other family members describe their dogs as stupid! They just can’t get them to understand basic things. 

[Rush Fan]

3 hours ago, Icaraa said:

Although I can see your point, it does depend on the dog. 

 

Our Ben is 9 months old. I don’t think he’s hard work at all and anyone that’s had any kind of larger dog would be just fine with him. He doesn’t NEED loads of exercise, don’t go mad on days when he gets less, hasn’t wrecked the house, is good on his own, is gentle and loves people. I could go on. 

He’s generally just a good dog. He differs in that he’s clearly more intelligent than most dogs. But that doesn’t mean he’s a little brat too. 

However I couldn’t recommend the breed as I’ve only had 2 of them. The other was like Ben too! But if you guys are saying I shouldn’t recommend them, then in some ways I’ve got to go with that. I might just have been lucky, twice. 

I think I may have miscommunicated. Mancer is very much like Ben, now that she is fully grown. But as a puppy, she was a little hellion. . She was very headstrong... frequently barked back at me when I corrected her. Every night had a case of what folks in these parts call "the zoomies" (i called it berserk mode) - where she ran around the room  uncontrollably, biting at whatever she came into contact with. I chose a border collie because they are known to be so intelligent, thinking that meant it would be easy to raise one, but quickly learned that just the opposite was the case. That was my point, and is what I try to make clear to anyone who asks me about her. I just want to make sure people understand what I misunderstood, that's all. Believe me, I love her awful, and would do it all again in a heartbeat, I just wish I would have been better mentally prepared for her puppyhood. 

[Icaraa]

2 hours ago, Rush Fan said:

I think I may have miscommunicated. Mancer is very much like Ben, now that she is fully grown. But as a puppy, she was a little hellion. . She was very headstrong... frequently barked back at me when I corrected her. Every night had a case of what folks in these parts call "the zoomies" (i called it berserk mode) - where she ran around the room  uncontrollably, biting at whatever she came into contact with. I chose a border collie because they are known to be so intelligent, thinking that meant it would be easy to raise one, but quickly learned that just the opposite was the case. That was my point, and is what I try to make clear to anyone who asks me about her. I just want to make sure people understand what I misunderstood, that's all. Believe me, I love her awful, and would do it all again in a heartbeat, I just wish I would have been better mentally prepared for her puppyhood. 

Interesting. Ben has been very laid back his whole life. He’s 9 months old and definitely used to be more bitey and bouncy than he is now. He’s calmed down a bit in the last couple of months. 

I think we’ve just been lucky with him. 

[Sue R]

3 hours ago, Icaraa said:

That’s true. I don’t know where you are (I’m in the UK) but anecdotally I’m hearing the same. 

Even here where the breed originates their popularity appears to be increasing in recent years. The farm we got Ben from told us that the whole litter have gone as pets. The previous litter was half and half she said. Half went to farmers as working dogs and half as pets. 

People here seem to like the idea of a really intelligent dog, and it’s common knowledge here that they are the most intelligent breed. One of the things that’s driving their popularity I think. 

In Ben’s case his intelligence has helped us, he just seems to get things easily and is super easy to train. Other family members describe their dogs as stupid! They just can’t get them to understand basic things. 

And one big problem with being recognized as intelligent (as well as beautiful) is that people think they will be easy because "they just train themselves". People who think their dog did that obviously don't realize that either they were training the dog and didn't recognize that they were, or they had one exceptional dog that just never picked up bad habits, only good ones. How likely is that? 

Then when that beautiful puppy isn't perfect from the get-go, doesn't potty-train itself by eight weeks of age, chews on things, bites fingers and grabs pants, annoys the cat, "herds" the children, and so on - well, it's out in the back yard or on a chain attached to a dog house, or off to the shelter. 

People also confuse intelligence with biddability and don't take into account independent thinking - Border Collies tend to have both, and many breeds or other individuals do not. We once had two dogs, a Redbone Coonhound and an Airedale Terrier. The Airedale was an angel, and the Coonhound was not so easy to live with. Everyone said that the Airedale was "intelligent" and the Coonhound was "stupid" but that was not the case. Nutmeg, the hound, was very intelligent but she was not very biddable - she was, like a hound is by nature, independent. So she was not as easy to teach unless she saw a good reason to learn. Arwen, the Airedale, was not so bright but she had lots of biddability, and so was easy to teach because she wanted to please and learn. She was also not, by nature, so independent. 

The problem with dogs is that people often don't understand them, and the dogs pay the price for that ignorance. 

[Smalahundur]

I think it is the opposite. Intelligence makes an animal harder to train. Domestic animals are in general (way) more stupid than their wild counterparts. Luckily (most) bordercollies are very biddable. Allows us to train them despite their smarts

[urge to herd]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:53 PM, ShellyF said:

Not quite lol! He’s not ‘scared’ that’s for sure but when we have had enough of his silliness and want to relax we put a piggy next to us on the sofa and say ‘the shop’s closed Merlin!’ 

I think it’s more a case of ‘respect the pig’ haha! 

Oh, NOOOOO! You made me remember 'Piggy says NO' and the time I spent laughing helplessly. My sides hurt from it.. 

Still think it needs to go on a bumper sticker.

Ruth & Gibbs

[D'Elle]

18 hours ago, Sue R said:

Nutmeg, the hound, was very intelligent but she was not very biddable - she was, like a hound is by nature, independent. So she was not as easy to teach unless she saw a good reason to learn. Arwen, the Airedale, was not so bright but she had lots of biddability, and so was easy to teach because she wanted to please and learn. She was also not, by nature, so independent. 

This is similar to the two dogs I have now. The terrier is very clever, and can learn quickly if there is food involved, but he is independent and has his own ideas about what is important. For instance, he will never have an immediate recall if he thinks something he is smelling is more important. I have heard terriers are like this; I don't know, as he is my first terrier, and I hesitate to blame the breed as I tend to think it is up to the owner to train the dog, breed notwithstanding.  The other dog, a fluffy mixture of who knows what, is very biddable. He is also a smart little guy,  will learn anything I teach him because he wants to, and has a very reliable recall. It takes longer to get the idea across to him when I am teaching him something new, but once learned I can pretty much count on it that he will do it when asked. He is not at all independent; just wants to be a good dog and he is. It has been interesting training these dogs (we do Canine Musical Freestyle among other things), and has taught me a lot. 

I think border collies are very easy to train, but are a challenge to those who are inexperienced in dog training because it is so easy inadvertently to train them into something you don't want, even for someone who has experience in training. So, they are really easy and also not.

[Smalahundur]

3 hours ago, D'Elle said:

 

I think border collies are very easy to train, but are a challenge to those who are inexperienced in dog training because it is so easy inadvertently to train them into something you don't want, even for someone who has experience in training. So, they are really easy and also not.

Isn't everything easy when you know how to do it? I mean, I don't think raising a horse from a foal to a riding horse is particularly difficult. But guess what, I spend some decades gaining  hands on experience.(At the moment we have 7 horses on the farm at various ages).

I agree in that I don't find training bordercollies very difficult. I do remember the learnig curve though,  pretty steep at times. But then I am talking mainly about the stockwork part

I know someone ( the guilty shall remain nameless) that habitually ruins perfectly fine dogs because of his/her lack of experience combined with a strong resistence to be educated. Unless this person makes a basic chance in attitude there will never be a usfull dog on that farm. For people like that it will always be very difficult.(In this extreme case it is of course always the dog who gets the blame btw.)

Imo bordercollies are more likely to become problem dogs beause of their drive and intelligence than a lot of other breeds. As a rule I don't advice people to get one (you know unless etc etc).

[mont4]

Loving the reminder of PIGGY!!!!   Laughed and laughed. Our late Bru could be pigheaded at times as well. 

Off topic I know, I have been enjoying the repartee and wisdom for a while but have not felt I had more to offer. Down to business, GL tells of a friends 'silken windhounds' honestly no offence to you GL but who makes up these names? Really. have a quiet word with yourselves.

I realise I am ranting but a long haired whippet is just that. Or will our BCs soon be ' Pie-bold slinky streakers' 

Apologies that my first post is negative, I don't think it is aimed at any of the regulars here. Love the forum, the dogs and the good people. 

[GentleLake]

1 hour ago, mont4 said:

...GL tells of a friends 'silken windhounds' honestly no offence to you GL but who makes up these names?...

Not me. I made the mistake of telling this person I thought the name was stupid and got the cold shoulder for quite a while after that.

Apparently the long haired whippet folks were fine with that name, but the "real" whippet contingent was afraid it would cause confusion. The LHW people caved because they want to have their breed recognized by ACK, so they didn't want to rock the boat.

BTW, LHWs were developed by outcrossing with Shelties to get the coat, then bred to fix the recessive coat into their gene pool. Dunno how much Sheltie DNA remains, but they could be considered lurchers.

[Smalahundur]

Hm, in that case I'd like to propose "Fuzzy Lurcher"

[mont4]

I like "fuzzy lurcher" tho that could describe the walk home from the pub.

Figured it would be a Kennel Club thing.        I'll stop now before I start ranting again.

[Smalahundur]

37 minutes ago, mont4 said:

I like "fuzzy lurcher" tho that could describe the walk home from the pub.

Figured it would be a Kennel Club thing.        I'll stop now before I start ranting again.

Probably a good name for a cocktail too, for some reason something vile like jack daniels in red bull springs to mind.

[urge to herd]

17 hours ago, GentleLake said:

Not me. I made the mistake of telling this person I thought the name was stupid and got the cold shoulder for quite a while after that.

Apparently the long haired whippet folks were fine with that name, but the "real" whippet contingent was afraid it would cause confusion. The LHW people caved because they want to have their breed recognized by ACK, so they didn't want to rock the boat.

"Silken windhound" creates a picture in my mind of a long haired dog flowing smoothly over the moors of Scotland, accompanied by a woman dressed in Victorian garb and pursued by an evil doer of some type.  Yes, it is a very, very silly name.

Ruth & Gibbs