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reploidphoenix

What is considered inbreeding

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On 12/30/2018 at 3:16 PM, Riika said:

There is nothing wrong with inbreeding when the right dogs are bred together. That’s how you get consistent results in offspring, and how breeds are created. 

Nothing wrong?  This is how breeders have identified recessive genetic mutations (mating two carriers); this is likely how we recognized EAOD.

 

When breeds were first developed inbreeding was used to fix traits; traits included those breeders wanted and genetic diseases not wanted.  Now that breeds (inbreed gene pool) have been established, additional inbreeding just increases the likelihood of crossing two dogs that both carry the same low frequency genetic mutation.

 

Please explain how the “right dogs” will be bred when we don’t have tests for all recessive mutations in our gene pool?  Keep in mind we didn’t know about EAOD until enough carriers were mated producing enough related dogs that went deaf.

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The point needs to be repeated often as long as people think inbreeding/line breeding with the “right dogs” has no ill effects.

 

Let me try an analogy.  Think of inbreeding like trace minerals.  We need a little in order for the body (or a working breed) to function properly.  However, like trace minerals inbreeding continues to accumulate in the breed (or body) until it reaches toxic levels.  We have enough inbreeding for good functioning working dogs (needed inbreeding to form the breed/type); we don’t need more and more will turn toxic.

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3 hours ago, Mark Billadeau said:

When breeds were first developed inbreeding was used to fix traits; traits included those breeders wanted and genetic diseases not wanted.  Now that breeds (inbreed gene pool) have been established, additional inbreeding just increases the likelihood of crossing two dogs that both carry the same low frequency genetic mutation.

This just makes so much sense. Very well explained! Thank you.

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If shes going buy and sell puppies(as wrong as it is in and if itself), atleast find a breeder with good dogs.

This is sort of like the old Groucho Marx quote about not wanting to belong to any club that would accept him as a member.  A breeder with good dogs isn't going to sell puppies to someone like your "friend".  

Terrecar beat me to calculating the COI for you, but yes, it's 25 % (probably higher if you had a pedigree that went back a few more generations, but that's sort of a moot point).  I totally misunderstood/misread your original description of the pedigree when I calculated a mere 3 %.

Moving forward:  yes you got a dog from a crappy breeder, and in doing so you have supported both that breeder and your puppy broker "friend" and encouraged them to continue their practices.  But you don't know what you don't know until after you know it.  Learn from your experience and move on.

And part of moving on will be to stop thinking of your dog as badly bred, because if you start focusing on that you run the risk of not fixing problems that can be fixed with training.  He is badly bred, but lots of well bred dogs are resource guarders.  Lots of well bred dogs don't like to socialize with other dogs as they mature.  Some well bred dogs are more reactive than we might like.  A few well bred dogs can turn out to be aggressive.  And lots of poorly bred dogs end up being physically and mentally fine.  You're working hard with the dog you have to fix what you can and manage what you can't fix, and that's what you need to focus on at this point.

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On 12/31/2018 at 9:29 AM, reploidphoenix said:

Oh, I'm not trying to attack the abca..I'm just wondering why they dont regulate it more carefully to avoid cases like this is all. I solely blame the breeder for spitting out puppies every couple months and selling them to a broker to get rid of. Someone also said puppy mills aren't illegal unless neglect can be proven.

Hes a sweet dog honestly...its just a real shame. Its upsetting to me they're still spitting out these puppies

The thing is, of course, that the reason they are still spitting out puppies is that people are still buying them.

No reputable breeder of any breed would sell a bunch of puppies to someone in order for that person to sell the puppies for them. This is a huge red flag that screams puppy mill. I am not judging you. You don't know what you have not learned, and now you know how important it is to be careful and do a lot of due diligence before buying a puppy from anyone, even if it is a friend. (Although that sounds like a weird friend to me, not one I would want, myself.)

As for inbreeding, it is simply not a good thing. Any appreciable amount of it at all makes defects of various kinds far more likely to occur. That is why it is illegal for people to marry family members. Dogs are no different. Any vet will tell you how many seriously defective dogs she or he has seen as a direct result of inbreeding. Responsible breeders avoid it.

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I should probably stay out of this...nothing to add re breeding/inbreeding that hasn't been said.

OTOH, this thread could prove *very* useful for someone else looking for a pup.  Kind of like all the publicity about the damage being done to national parks during the govt. shutdown (OK, off-topic, sorry; but *that* publicity might prove useful sometime in the future.  'Nuff said about that....for now.).

diane

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I’ll have to post the pedigree of my first BC. Ay Yi Yi. Every dog on her dam’s side went back to the same two dogs (she was given to me by the “breeder” as a 3 y/o).

 

That said, she turned out to be a really nice dog. Solid temperament. Nice working ability. Scary smart. Therapy dog. Highly irresponsible way to breed ( and I’d definitely avoid buying a dog with that type of background) but beyond that she turned out to be a great dog after working through her lack of early socialization. So I’d quit focusing on that pedigree now and work with the dog in front of you. It could be a number of things causing the issue besides just inbreeding.

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On 1/1/2019 at 7:35 AM, Smalahundur said:

 Completely off topic, but what a weird person this is....

I think it's a convenient excuse because it sounds better than admitting she's a puppy broker.

 

J.

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5 hours ago, juliepoudrier said:

I think it's a convenient excuse because it sounds better than admitting she's a puppy broker.

That was my thought-

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Ah, that's an explanation. I have never heard of "puppy brokers" before,  we don't have them here. Does not sound like a great business idea, why would I want a middle man between me and the breeder? For the potential puppy buyer I only see disadvantages.

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17 hours ago, Smalahundur said:

For the potential puppy buyer I only see disadvantages.

I believe you’ve hit that nail squarely on the head.

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On 1/4/2019 at 2:58 PM, juliepoudrier said:

I think it's a convenient excuse because it sounds better than admitting she's a puppy broker.

 

J.

And there are a number of people who will describe what they do one way or the other, but what it comes down to is that they are really a puppy broker, a puppy mill, or a backyard breeder. 

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