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reploidphoenix

Training with Wellington update

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I know alot of you were very against using a trainer that used an e-collar. He was assessed by the 2nd head trainer in this area for k9 offleash. I showed her he knew commands and what was asked, but refused to follow when he didn't feel like. It was hard to take him anywhere with his barking and stranger danger. He would push you out of the way and almost run you over at doorways, even if you tried to body block him. Trainer said he was being this way because we weren't correcting his bad behavior and that he knew we weren't going to follow through on a correction if he did what he wanted.

We are on week 2 ..only 2 one hour sessions, and we've already seen a great improvement. I've never been one to force a dog to do what is asked, I've always had dogs that WANTED to please me. Unfortunately, this dog was not really bonded to me nor my husband. Now, he looks for me in the morning once let out of his crate and has become quite the snuggle bug. I know some think i'm cruel for using this type of training, but it has really helped. I'm glad he doesn't run out past us anymore and take off after whatever is outside. We're still working on the reactive barking this week.
Here's a video of his progress. Mind you i didn't have to use stimulation once in this video.
Wellington E-collar training

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7 minutes ago, Donald McCaig said:

citation? Donald

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Former-Patriots-Player-Jerod-Mayos-Missing-Dog-Found-Dead-490164731.html

 

Off leash k9 is a chain place using e-collars.  They hire people who are barely trained and primarily make money through the sale of collars.  I don't love the method but several trainers I respect a lot use e-collars so no problem there (though used on a fearful dog is pure stupidity), but this chain is terrible.  Trainers aren't trained, much less capable of teaching someone else how to use the collars to train their dogs.

 

That said, and in disclosure, this person was working for them but had this person's dog as a private client.   Says something about who they'll hire, though! 

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Good to know. I've no enthusiasm for franchise dog training and know nothing about this outfit. Their FAQ's seem sensible and if one wackado casts doubt on any organization few orgs would be left standing.

How much dog training is required before you hand out your shingle. K9 says 21 days.  I've seen noforce trainers with a year. I suppose I started helping neighbors train sheepdogs after five years training my own dogs. More after ten years after I won my first open trial. Never charged - wasn't how i wanted to earn money. After 20 years I might have hosted small occasional clinics but there was always someone better nearby to recommend. And while I'd studied dozens of dogs, real trainers had seen hundreds.

 

Donald

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That's always a heck of a question, isn't it?

I think most trainers I know, the really good ones, tend to have clients find *them*, long before they start charging people for their knowledge.  Me? When I'm looking? I avoid the chains altogether and go looking for people who's own dogs are doing well and, for me, who have STUDENTS whose dogs are doing really well. 

But I don't trust chains further than I can throw them, and I trust pyramid schemes even less.  This combines the worst of both with dogs in a way that sets my hair on end.

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I watched the video twice -- and I am aware of the other thread you started discussing the use of e-collars (or stim collars or whatever the current euphemism is).

I am not going to repeat all the excellent advice you received in the other thread, but seeing this video confirms exactly what others have already stated. This poor dog is behaving from a place of uncertainty and fear of when the next 'stim' is going to hit him. I can pick out the dogs that are trained with these collars when I see them walking down the street -- in lock-step with their owners, afraid to move away from their side.

I don't think anyone should use these collars on a dog unless they are willing to put the same collar on their NECK (not their arm) to experience the stim.

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:26 PM, reploidphoenix said:

We are on week 2 ..only 2 one hour sessions, and we've already seen a great improvement.

It's such a great feeling when there's improvement.

Does he wear the collar all the time or is it just when you do training sessions, and do you practice the new learnt behaviours without the collar too? I'm genuinely interested btw, not being judgemental. 

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11 hours ago, gcv-border said:

I watched the video twice -- and I am aware of the other thread you started discussing the use of e-collars (or stim collars or whatever the current euphemism is).

I am not going to repeat all the excellent advice you received in the other thread, but seeing this video confirms exactly what others have already stated. This poor dog is behaving from a place of uncertainty and fear of when the next 'stim' is going to hit him. I can pick out the dogs that are trained with these collars when I see them walking down the street -- in lock-step with their owners, afraid to move away from their side.

I don't think anyone should use these collars on a dog unless they are willing to put the same collar on their NECK (not their arm) to experience the stim.

Yeah.  That video hurt me to watch.    :/ 

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On 11/8/2018 at 9:26 AM, jami74 said:

It's such a great feeling when there's improvement.

Does he wear the collar all the time or is it just when you do training sessions, and do you practice the new learnt behaviours without the collar too? I'm genuinely interested btw, not being judgemental. 

The collar is kept on while hes not in his crate or by himself. It keeps them from becoming "collar smart" and only listening when the collar is on. If it's only used in training sessions, they become fearful of the collar. We taught him the commands originally without the collar, but only listened 30% of the time after treats were put away. 

Unfortunately,  we did this training to keep him safe from running away or getting hit while were out. It's worked well for us so far

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On 11/8/2018 at 11:30 AM, CptJack said:

Yeah.  That video hurt me to watch.    :/ 

Honestly..he always looked sad..even before we started training. He just has that really pathetic sad puppy dog look all the time.. this was him sleeping in the car while we were at cabellas lol

20181027_134615.jpg

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1 hour ago, reploidphoenix said:

The collar is kept on while hes not in his crate or by himself. It keeps them from becoming "collar smart" and only listening when the collar is on. If it's only used in training sessions, they become fearful of the collar. We taught him the commands originally without the collar, but only listened 30% of the time after treats were put away. 

Unfortunately,  we did this training to keep him safe from running away or getting hit while were out. It's worked well for us so far

Yes that makes sense, but are you finding that you don't need to 'use' it so often now when you give a command? I suppose I'm wondering if it's something that will eventually be fazed out as he gets older and more reliable or if it'll be a part of him forever. 

And does he know when you have the controller in your hand? I trained a whistle recall using extremely high value treats, the problem now is if he sees me with the whistle in my hand he knows what is coming so is on his way before I've had chance to blow it.

1 hour ago, reploidphoenix said:

Honestly..he always looked sad..

We're training our boy not to run out the front door. The worst thing that has happened to him during this training was the couple of times he stepped outside without permission, we said 'Nope. Inside' (normal voice, no anger.) bought him inside and closed the door. Yet now, if I open the door he looks as if he's expecting a beating. 

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The collar is supposed to phase out as time goes on. When asked a command, the first hit of the button is on 0..so he gets a chance to obey. Then it goes up a couple points on a collar that has 100 levels until he obeys. I'm starting to see if I give a command he obeys right away now without the stimuli. Once it becomes habit, the collar wont be needed anymore.

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1 hour ago, reploidphoenix said:

The collar is supposed to phase out as time goes on. When asked a command, the first hit of the button is on 0..so he gets a chance to obey. Then it goes up a couple points on a collar that has 100 levels until he obeys. I'm starting to see if I give a command he obeys right away now without the stimuli. Once it becomes habit, the collar wont be needed anymore.

So you give a command and hit the button anyway but nothing happens so if you need to repeat the command and he doesn't immediately respond you hit the button again and it does something, probably a very minor something (if it's on point 2 of 100) but enough to remind him that if he doesn't respond then it might get worse?

Sorry for all the questions, do feel free to say if you don't want me to ask anymore. I am finding it interesting. When I googled them (after seeing them mentioned on this forum) it seems to be a very emotive topic with people either very against them or very defensive about them with no information on how they are used and the results (when used the way they are meant to be used).

Does he still get a reward (praise/treat/playtime) when he responds appropriately? We're phasing out food treats for general expected good behaviour.

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I mean, I know dogs who look sad all the time. 


They still have body language independent of sad face.


 

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3 hours ago, CptJack said:

I mean, I know dogs who look sad all the time. 


They still have body language independent of sad face.

And Wellington definitely does. Nothing subjective about it, as "looking sad" might be.

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15 hours ago, jami74 said:

So you give a command and hit the button anyway but nothing happens so if you need to repeat the command and he doesn't immediately respond you hit the button again and it does something, probably a very minor something (if it's on point 2 of 100) but enough to remind him that if he doesn't respond then it might get worse?

Sorry for all the questions, do feel free to say if you don't want me to ask anymore. I am finding it interesting. When I googled them (after seeing them mentioned on this forum) it seems to be a very emotive topic with people either very against them or very defensive about them with no information on how they are used and the results (when used the way they are meant to be used).

Does he still get a reward (praise/treat/playtime) when he responds appropriately? We're phasing out food treats for general expected good behaviour.

I've had the collar on my hand up to level 26. It starts out as like an itchy tingle. As it goes higher, it feels more like a fast shaking that makes you jump. Wellington usually responds to as low level as 6.. which my husband cant even feel. We do start with treats and positive reinforcement when he does obey. We are phasing out treats and just doing verbal praise. It's not practical to carry treats 24/7..and he already has a history of ignoring you if you dont have treats. It is a very heated topic among owners.

Threshold training is the most common way to use the collar. You find a level the dog barely feels, and guide them with the stimuli. It works extremely well and fast for dogs that are willing to work for you. 

In my dogs case, he was unwilling to work for my praise. It was explained using a "working level" style on him just taught him he could ignore me say 3-5 times before he HAD to listen lol. 

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Thank-you

11 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

It's not practical to carry treats 24/7..and he already has a history of ignoring you if you dont have treats.  

Yes I agree about practicality. Our boy happily accepts a treat but often spits it out again.

Thank-you for explaining it so openly and honestly. I hope it turns out to be a short term intervention which produces long term results for you and I look forward to hearing more updates.

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"It's not practical to carry treats, but I can t-totally slap on a special training collar and carry the remote."

Training treats are used for... you know training stages, not forever.  NO ONE I knows carries treats around everywhere they go with their dog. They take treats to training!  


If your dog won't take he treat, your dog is over threshold or you need to use another reward.


The excuses you make here are ridiculous and make me sick for your poor, stressed out, shutting down miserable dog. 


You're lazy and going fast, easy and convenient for you and training with a trainer who isn't a hack would require either more money, more time, or more work.   After people FOUND decent trainers close to you. Or you're brain washed by he snake oil salesmen and slick sales pitch.  Either way, every video of your dog you can see that dog suffering and it's horrific.  That isn't hyperbole.

 

What's worse - you're 'converting' other people by being lazy and posting videos of your miserable dog.    I wish  this forum had an option for ignoring users.  You are clearly going to do whatever you're going to do, and I can and will be avoiding going forward, but *EVERY TIME* I forget what this thread is about and check, see a video, I end up nauseated by watching this train wreck.

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42 minutes ago, CptJack said:

What's worse - you're 'converting' other people by being lazy and posting videos of your miserable dog.   

I'm not sure she's 'converting' other people and it doesn't seem to be her intention to try.

I'm sorry I asked questions. I was just trying to understand it, it's not a training method that is used where I am and I try not to form strong opinions about things I know nothing about.

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I have to do what u feel is best for my dog. If you dont carry treats even in a no- distraction environment he also chooses to ignore you. It has nothing to do with being over threshold.

I see nothing in the video about bad body language.  If you're talking about the submissive butt wiggle to the side when he comes to you, hes always done that. His head low when I put him on place is his stalking/focused face.

I've trained my neighbors dog too..I know about positive training and patience, and it hasn't worked for us. I'm not lazy..training wasnt cheap...and its definitely not convenient..

This was my neighbors dog I trained. He was reactive to the vacuum and would bark and attack it. He was even triggered across the house. I had to start across the room and turning it on for just a sec..until I moved it closer and I was able to do this in the video.

4 classes was $700...over an hour away. Dont think I took this decision lightly, and I'm sorry if it disgusts you.... I remember when crates were considered inhumane..

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2 hours ago, CptJack said:

I wish  this forum had an option for ignoring users. 

It does. Locate your cursor on the user name or avatar pic. At the bottom of the box that comes up is an option to "Ignore User." 

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