Serendipity or red flags?

[Abroz]

Dear BC people, I could use your expertise, feedback and advice on my situation.  I tried to keep this short, but it's still kinda long, sorry.  Thanks for any comments!!!

I just lost my dear boy Zorba a few weeks ago at age 17 and my heart is broken.  While I'm not looking for a new puppy immediately, I've been trying to get something lined up for say 2-6 months out.  I have been trying to do everything "right" to find a breeder who is breeding for work and who does health tests on the pups.  However, despite a few promising contacts, I don't have anything lined up yet.  (See my other post for what I'm looking for and please PM if you have leads.  EDIT here's the link http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/topic/40777-iso-abca-pup/ )

Meanwhile... an acquaintance of a friend of a friend has a litter of border collie puppies who are 4 weeks old and he's looking for homes for them in a month.  I met the pups, the dam, the sire and a grandfather the other day.  The smell alone of the pups was a salve to my heart.  But I want to use my brain to decide whether to adopt one of them.

Pros.  On one hand, this could be serendipity, the path of least resistance, what was meant to be, etc etc (even though it's sooner than I wanted, the timing would be OK).  I am weary of justifying myself to working breeders, some of whom have been quite condescending (encouraging the likes of me who seek a "mere companion" to support one of the vanity breeders instead??? but that's another topic...)  The pups are being raised with gentle care and lots of attention and socialization.  I really liked the sire who had great BC energy and intensity and who was really quick to figure things out.  It was harder to get a feel for the dam -- she was nice enough though a bit standoffish with me (understandable and fine, especially given that she's nursing) but was very attentive to her owner.  Grandfather was low key, especially around all the commotion and as an older dog, so it was also hard to get much sense of him.  I liked one of the puppies, though it's hard much to tell at 4 weeks, I could see them again weekly for the next month.  The owner said the sire as well as both of the dam's parents were/are registered and he's supposed to be digging up the papers from a storage locker for me...

Cons.  On the other hand, I have some concerns: 

First, this litter was not specifically bred for work.  I really really want a dog with all the BC traits that I believe come with working lines, even though I don't intend to work my own dog on stock. However, it's possible that there are working lines quite close back to this litter.  When (if) I see papers, I'll be able to tell if the sire is from a working line (apparently he was brought over directly from Scotland, though not by this owner) and how far back work is on the dam's side (owner said the grandfather, the dam's sire, came from a ranch someplace around Meeker, which could even be good). 

Secondly, there are no health or genetic tests. This is a particular worry because of the three pups, one is totally white and another is a mostly-white piebald.  As I understand it, a litter like this is at increased risk for deafness and other maladies.  However, I may get some hints from the pedigrees and in lieu of paying for a puppy, I could just get the CEA and BEAR tests and even genetic tests myself for the one puppy I'm considering.  Although in that case if the info is not good, then I'd just be out the expense for testing someone else's puppy.

What do you think? Thanks!

Edited October 13, 2018 by Abroz
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[GentleLake]

1 hour ago, Abroz said:

(See my other post for what I'm looking for and please PM if you have leads.)

Always a good idea to link to the post rather than expecting ppl to go out of their ways to find it.

Among the cons I notice you don't mention that this litter is 4 weeks old and apparently(?) not spoken for. This begs the question of why these dogs were bred in the first place. Well bred litters are often spoken for before the mating even takes place or at least soon after the pups are whelped. What's the reason or criteria for having bred these dogs? There are plenty of backyard breeders and puppy mills with so called "working lines" a generation or 2 back available all over the place, so what makes this litter any different from any of them?

Is this a first time or a repeat breeding? If a repeat would you be able to see any of the older pups to see if you like them?

Imported dogs are no guarantee of quality. I've seen a number of lackluster imported dogs whose original owners saw an opportunity to unload a mediocre dog to an unsuspecting Yank with money to spend. Sometimes the buyer's a broker never intending to keep said dog, or the dog doesn't live up to expectations and gets sold on to someone wanting to add "imported working lines" to their own dogs who've never proven themselves either. If the grandfather was imported by someone other than the current owner, how/why did they happen to end up with him?

Just some further food for thought.

Otherwise, all I can say is you have to decide for yourself which of your criteria (I'm not going to search to find them) you're comfortable ditching and which are nonnegotiable. No one else can do that for you.

[Abroz]

GentleLake, thanks for your reply.

Good suggestion to link to my other post, ISO ABCA pup (didn't think of it cuz I'm new here).  Here it is: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/topic/40777-iso-abca-pup/

To answer your questions... No the litter is not spoken for -- the owner said he planned to keep one pup and give the remaining ones to family members or friends but the people fell through somehow.  The owner just bred his dogs because he wanted a pup from his bitch to continue the line he's had for many years, but it is not a repeat breeding.  I agree that just because the sire is is imported it's not necessarily good (though also not necessarily bad).  The owner came by the sire from someone who gave it up.  I got the impression it was a family friend, perhaps with health issues, and I don't know why the dog was imported in the first place.

I think "Backyard Breeder" is exactly correct for this situation. I'm definitely not endorsing this guy or his behavior, was just wondering whether it *might* be an opportunity for me.  But you are right to remind me of my own criteria and I appreciate your comments.  I feel like I should pass on this litter, as not exactly what I'm looking for, but I still feel a twinge of reluctance because there isn't anything definite on the horizon and the prospect of life without a dog for a year or more is too grim to bear.

[terrecar]

First, I want to offer my condolences to you for the loss of your companion dog.

Second, I am glad the all white pup in this litter gave you pause. It doesn’t necessarily mean the pups are double Merle with the resulting problems, but if that were the case I’d pass on them and look elsewhere. Since you saw both sire and dam, you should notice if they both have the Merle pattern, with a caveat; a cryptic Merle might not be so obvious. Here is more information about white factored pups: http://www.bordercollie.org/health/kpwhite.html

And a discussion:

I did look at your original post. Amy (I think) offered a great suggestion. If you can make it to the sheepdog trial, you might find a more suitable breeder. Additionally, since it is being held within a couple of weeks, you might still have the option of going with a pup from the litter you’re posting about if you don’t find someone who could steer you in the right direction. I think it is worth the wait.

I roll my eyes at condescension as well, but here is another way of looking at that. If someone is that concerned about you as a puppy buyer, that might also indicate they’re a good steward of the breed and conscientious about where their pups go. Personally, I am willing to let a bit of condescension roll off my back in that case!

Finally, kudos to you for looking in the direction of the working Border Collie community rather than the conformation bred pups. You’re at least headed in the right direction there.

 

[Abroz]

terrecar, thanks for your thoughts. 

Neither sire nor dam of the litter is a merle, but both are white factor.  (I did read up on that; I'm a scientist and I find the genetics fascinating.)  However even if there weren't white pups, health tests are important in general.

Regarding the trial amc (Amy, I guess) mentioned that is listed on the USBCHA Sheepdog trial page in Colorado Springs for Oct 27-29 https://usbcha.com/sheepdogs/upcoming-trials-sheepdog/    I would love to go!  However I cannot find any information about location or times.  I emailed the organizer a week ago, but got no response.  (If anybody knows anything, will you please send information my way! Thanks!)

The thing about the condescension is that some people make judgements and decisions based on assumptions without any information.  I'll just say that reducing what I do to most people's idea of "hiking" is akin to reducing trialing to chasing sheep. 

[amc]

Hi, and thanks for keeping us in your pup search loop!

Lise Andersen, host of the Fall Tower trial in Colorado Springs, is a pretty busy veterinarian.  She lists a phone # on the USBCHA website which you might want to try instead of email.  You might also get in touch with Bob or Irene Stoller at runagroundranch@gmail.com or 303-651-2039.  They host events for the Mountain & Plains Border Collie Association at their ranch, and they may have access to specific info about the trial.  It would be a shame to miss out on a trial so close to home!

I think if you have any reservations at all about the 'litter of convenience' near you, you should pass.  Although picking any pup carries a lot of uncertainties, you will increase your chances of getting what you want if you stick closer to your original criteria.  That being said, I don't necessarily see a plethora of health testing as being a 'seal of approval' either, but it's good to have parents hip scored, CEA, perhaps IGS, and the EOAD test when it becomes available.

Good luck!

Amy

[Abroz]

Amy thanks for the additional info about the trial. I'll follow up with a call and I'll contact Irene again too.

I agree that there's never going to be certainty about the future health of a puppy but I definitely want to improve the odds and avoid known problems.

Cathy

 

[islandboy]

I spent hours learning what I could prior to picking our pup.  In the end we chose a pup from an unexpected working dog litter.  The farmer raised sheep, horses and bred BC's (for 40+ years as needed).  She thought her last bitch was dry, so purchased a male pup to continue working.  In time a surprise litter.   After meeting with her and seeing the parents we opted for a pup.  Upon discovering one of the two red & whites were available we simply accepted the one that would be unchosen.  All the preparation and research out the window.

Merlin is almost two and is a wonderful pup.

[Abroz]

Islandboy, thanks for sharing your story.   How did you find out about the unexpected litter where Merlin came from?  Did the farmer do health checks like hips, eyes, ears, or in the end did you just figure that the parents were healthy and so the odds were good? 

BTW I love your bicycle side car.  Did you make it?

I've about given up on trying to arrange anything in advance for my next pup.  I am just biding my time, trying to trust that things will work out when I am ready.  It's interesting that I've found pups that are ready right now (a bit too soon for me and my grieving process), possible litters for 6-8 months from now (a longish time and uncertain; just have to wait to see what happens), or else long waiting lists with mandatory deposits for a year or more in the future (an impossibly long time to live without a dog; and how can they be certain enough of pregnancy and number of pups to accept a deposit now anyhow?). 

[gcv-border]

2 hours ago, Abroz said:

.....and how can they be certain enough of pregnancy and number of pups to accept a deposit now anyhow?). 

Pups can be spoken for before the breeding happens - particularly if the dam or sire is an impressive dog. It is not unusual to hear someone tell the owner of a dog "If you plan to breed X, I want a puppy." There is no guarantee that the owner will remember that statement, so usually the 'buyer' may check back with the owner every so often. Also no guarantee that the bitch will get pregnant with a breeding or the # of pups to pop out. As an 'outsider' to the sheepdog industry, I probably would not be able to reserve a pup in this manner.

IMHO, deposits given to a reputable breeder (and one who has been breeding quality dogs for a # of years) wouldn't worry me. I trust they would refund my monies. (Note: I do rely on a few people who are in the sheepdog industry to advise me on the reputation and honesty of a breeder I might be interested in buying a puppy from.) Having said that, in my very limited experience, if the breeder knows you or a mutual friend can vouch for you, sometimes verbal interest is enough.The breeder may keep a list of people who have expressed interest in the upcoming litter. They may ask for a deposit once the bitch is bred or once pregnancy is confirmed by U/S. Be prepared to put down a deposit ASAP once pregnancy is confirmed.  Again, this is a general example. Every breeder has his/her own policies, and you should ask up front.

The breeder may accept deposits for an average size litter. If there are fewer than expected, those buyers added later to the list will not get a puppy. If there are more pups, more buyers can be added to the list. It is a very fluid situation.

In my case, my first real working bred dog came from a breeder who was willing to take a chance on me. Then, I asked her to help me find another puppy 4 years later. I must have sent her about 20 internet posts advertising various pups or litters, and I kept getting back a 'No'. :-)  Then one day, a post popped up on her FB feed for the last puppy in a litter, and she forwarded it to me with a note that she thought this was a good breeding. (pedigree and health clearances and working ability)

The breeder asked me for references because she didn't know me. I was a bit taken aback, but had to laugh. 'I' am usually the one to ask for references because I foster for a border collie rescue, and was not used to being on the opposite side of the equation. I passed and soon welcomed a lovely little bitch puppy, now 8 months old. I must say that the availability of a puppy seems to coincide with a period in one's life when you may not be 100% prepared.

 

[Abroz]

Gcv thanks for your comments. I like that you said a responsible breeder would return a deposit on a litter if there weren't enough pups (which could happen for understandable reasons). I'm totally on board with putting a deposit down the second I'm ready to commit. That's best for everyone - - the breeder doesn't hold pups for people who flake out and I know that if all goes as expected I can count on one. 

But I've had some breeders say the deposit is not refundable under any circumstances and they would just roll it over to their next litter if they don't have as many pups as expected.  That does not seem reasonable to me because the next litter usually wouldn't be the same parents and it could be a long wait.  So I've decided against breeders with that policy.

[islandboy]

On 10/26/2018 at 9:55 AM, Abroz said:

Islandboy, thanks for sharing your story.   How did you find out about the unexpected litter where Merlin came from?  Did the farmer do health checks like hips, eyes, ears, or in the end did you just figure that the parents were healthy and so the odds were good? 

BTW I love your bicycle side car.  Did you make it?

I was browsing Kijiji - another of the red flag warnings.  Actually the deciding factor was the farmer's personality, knowledge and commitment to her livestock.

The sidecar is a Chariot Sidecarrier for children.  No longer in production.  You can find them used online.

Edited November 1, 2018 by islandboy
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[Eileen Stein]

21 hours ago, Abroz said:

 

But I've had some breeders say the deposit is not refundable under any circumstances and they would just roll it over to their next litter if they don't have as many pups as expected.  That does not seem reasonable to me because the next litter usually wouldn't be the same parents and it could be a long wait.  So I've decided against breeders with that policy.

Good decision, IMO.   I would not consider buying from a breeder who had that policy.  

Just FYI, any deafness that may be associated with extreme white factor (higher risk of deafness has been found in other breeds, not definitively in border collies) will be detectable by the time the dog is 8-10 weeks old.  Since you're concerned about this, you might want to give a BAER test or less formal hearing test if you decide you are interested in one of these pups.  Be aware that a pup may be deaf in one ear only -- harder to detect without a BAER test but at the same time not likely to be a big problem in a companion dog. 

[Abroz]

Is there an adequate informal test for unilateral deafness? I've tried just softly snapping my fingers near each ear but it is hard to get a reliable response.  Since I need to communicate over long distance and in very windy conditions in the mountains, deafness in one ear is still a concern.

[Eileen Stein]

3 hours ago, Abroz said:

Is there an adequate informal test for unilateral deafness? I've tried just softly snapping my fingers near each ear but it is hard to get a reliable response.  Since I need to communicate over long distance and in very windy conditions in the mountains, deafness in one ear is still a concern.

No informal test is as good as a BAER test in detecting unilateral deafness, that's for sure, so the more critical it is for you that the dog is able to hear from both ears, the more reason there is to opt for a BAER test.  I don't like the snapping fingers deal because it seems to me you might get a reaction from just the disturbance of the air next to the ear.   One thing you can try is having someone make a small, interesting noise several feet or more away from the pup on one side and then on the other side, and observe how the pup reacts.  Does it appear to hear the sound?  Does it turn its head toward the sound, or does it seem to have trouble determining where the sound is coming from?  Does it locate the sound as readily from both sides, or does it have more trouble locating it from one side than the other?  Bear in mind that the people (or pups) making the sound must be stationary -- if they' or you are moving around the pup will likely turn toward the moving person/pup.  This test works best if the pup is in a drowsy phase rather than an active phase.

But tests like this are makeshift compared to the BAER, and if I felt I absolutely needed a dog that had hearing in both ears I would BAER test the pup or keep looking.

[Abroz]

6 hours ago, Eileen Stein said:

... if I felt I absolutely needed a dog that had hearing in both ears I would BAER test the pup or keep looking.

Should the BAER test be my responsibility or the breeder's?  It's not about the cost of the test per se.  It just that it seems unfair for me to test someone else's pup because if it doesn't work out and I walk away then I'm just out that investment.  Personally I am more comfortable if the breeder does the testing up front but I essentially pay for it in the final cost.  [Aside: To be clear, I consider the cost of a puppy to be completely negligible compared to all the years of joy.  I only get around to asking the price to be sure it's within the typical range as an indication that the breeder isn't in it for money.]

[Eileen Stein]

That's kinda up to the breeder.  Your argument that putting the responsibility of testing on the buyer is unfair makes sense, and your approach makes sense too.  But BAER testing is pretty specialized and expensive, and the frequency of congenital deafness in border collies is not that high.*  When it comes right down to it, this is a commercial transaction.  If the breeder doesn't think a BAER test is essential, s/he can either say to buyers that they can do it at their expense, or s/he can hope that there will be enough buyers who agree that the test is not essential to buy the pups without a test.  There are a whole lotta tests that can be done on puppies, and more are coming along all the time as DNA research progresses -- so many that it is not practical or sensible to do them all.   It comes down to risk analysis.  Most people make their decision -- and the ABCA makes its recommendations -- based on the prevalence of the disease or the disorder in the border collie breed.  Beyond that, if the disease or disorder is known to be present in the breeding line, then it makes more sense to test for it than if it's not. 

*I should say that although there is no research showing that deafness is more prevalent in border collies who are white-factored, there is one study suggesting that it is higher in border collies with white faces/ears.  Don't know if these pups have white faces/ears, but I would be more concerned about deafness if they did than if they didn't.  

[GentleLake]

2 hours ago, Eileen Stein said:

...there is one study suggesting that it is higher in border collies with white faces/ears. 

And isn't there some evidence that deafness is more common even in normally colored dogs from litters where some puppies have white heads/ears? Or am I mis-remembering?

But, yeah, whatever tests would be done if the breeder isn't already doing them would be a negotiation between the breeder and (potential) purchase. You could always offer to pay for the test and buy the puppy if it's clear, and perhaps get an agreement for the breeder to reimburse you if the pup end up being deaf. Some breeders might be amenable to that, though others would probably consider it a double loss and not entertain the idea. But it never hurts to ask.

[terrecar]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:14 PM, GentleLake said:

And isn't there some evidence that deafness is more common even in normally colored dogs from litters where some puppies have white heads/ears? Or am I mis-remembering?

If I am remembering correctly, Malcolm Willis reported in his book Genetics of the Dog that merle (Mm) dogs from a litter that has produced double merles (MM) have an higher incidence of auditory issues.

I would not believe this is the case for non-white factored dogs in a litter of white factored dogs unless I saw some evidence. I think the evidence was even weak for the merles (Mm).

Having said that, I would still do the testing, since hearing is vital in the OP’s situation.

[GentleLake]

I wasn't referring to merles. When I have more time later I'll see if I can't find the reference I'm thinking of.

[Eileen Stein]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:14 PM, GentleLake said:

And isn't there some evidence that deafness is more common even in normally colored dogs from litters where some puppies have white heads/ears? Or am I mis-remembering?

 

The study I was thinking of that found higher rates of deafness in dogs with white faces/ears can be found here: https://www.bordercolliesociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/bcdeafness.pdf.  There was no attention given in that study to whether normal colored dogs from litters containing some white head/ear pups might have higher rates of deafness.  Also not addressed, unfortunately, was the question of predominant white:

"Coat color was recorded as one of the following possibilities: black and white; black, white, and tan; red and white; red, white, and tan; blue and white; blue, white, and tan; blue merle; red merle; predominantly white; and any other color. For the purposes of analysis, coat color was classified according to the dominant color: black, blue, red, or merle. Dogs who had white as the dominant color were allocated to the color group of their existing pigmented areas."

perhaps because of the authors' belief that

"all Border Collies are homozygous for the Sw and Sp alleles so that the S locus [i.e., the white-factor locus] is not thought to be involved in the regulation of deafness in Border Collies."

Of course, this study is 12 years old now, so the one you're thinking of might be more recent.

[Abroz]

I remembered seeing this post supporting the idea that deafness may be more common in all pups in a litter where some have lots of white

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/topic/31981-white-head-pups/?do=findComment&comment=398835

 

[GentleLake]

Thanks, Abroz. This is one of the references I was thinking of.

I think I've seen others as well -- one was a study about frequency of deafness in border collies related to coat color that may have been in a discussion about merles, or at least that had gone onto a tangent about merles. I remember it because I'm fond of merles and merle often comes up as a risk factor for deafness. I'd noted that the risk of deafness in heterozygous merles is less than it is for all pups in a litter that have white or white headed pups, which doesn't seem to concern people as much, though it's been coming up here lately.

[Abroz]

Lots of anecdotes.  Not much actual data. 

Eileen, is coat color, eye color, or white factor noted for dogs that are BAER tested at trials?  I didn't see it on the consent/questionaire form.  Although asking people might not be very accurate anyhow (for example definition of white factor isn't widely agreed on).  Might be better to take a picture of each dog tested so color could be scored off line according to consistent criteria.

[terrecar]

4 hours ago, GentleLake said:

 I'd noted that the risk of deafness in homozygous merles is less than it is for all pups in a litter that have white or white headed pups

Do you have any actual data (or even logic) to support this claim that the risk of deafness in double merles is lower than it is for “all pups in a litter that have white or white headed pups”? 

I read Mark’s comments. It seems clear that his idea that there is an increased incidence of deafness in ‘normal’ colored dogs from a litter of extreme white factored is a hypothesis. He also pointed out that his sample size was small. 

It seems to be a reasonable hypothesis, but I’d like to find this elusive study before even considering unqualified statements like the one quoted above.