Jump to content
BC Boards

Recommended Posts

AND SPAMMING BUT OH MY GOD THAT GROUP IS LOCAL TO ME and I just noticed who they are (I skimmed the video and skipped the intro splash page).  They have two locations near me. 

RUN AWAY. Don't walk, RUN. 


It's not just the collar, though that's bad.  It's that they 'certify' people as  trainers after 2 weeks (ie: their trainers know nothing), use e-collars on ALL dogs, even those who just need to learn how to sit or are 8 weeks old, give them out as part of every package.  They're a chain, they are a bad chain, they are a terrible chain, they know NOTHING and are associated with dogs DYING in their care. DO NOT GO NEAR THEM, HOLY CRAP NO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Run from those so-called trainers, as Gentle Lake said.

That video you just posted doesn't change my mind one bit. Look at the dogs in their own video! If you do not see clearly how stressed out they are, how afraid, then it would be advisable for you to learn about dogs' body language and stress signals. There is a lot of info out there about that. Nothing wrong with not knowing what you don't know; this is not a criticism of you. but please take the word of those of us who have been training dogs for decades, and do not subject your dog to this kind of treatment or to those people who call themselves "trainers". They clearly do not know what they are talking about. I hope for your dog's sake that you can listen to what we are saying and take it in, and avoid those people.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Former-Patriots-Player-Jerod-Mayos-Missing-Dog-Found-Dead-490164731.html

 

Can I repeat:  THIS IS A CHAIN THAT HAS BEEN IMPLICATED IN THE DEATH OF AT LEAST ONE DOG? 


Forgot the e-collar thing for the time being, though I can't think of a worse application of one than this, these people are a chain, who hire people who are barely trained at all and THEN combine it with an e-collar.


FFS, find a real trainer!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you so determined to use an e-collar that you're just going to keep posting links about using them? 

Listen to what these folks are telling you. Quick fixes aren't really fixes at all. Despite all the explanations and concerns expressed here you're still determined this is the solution to your dog's issues? If so, I feel very, very sorry for your poor dog.

 

And just FYI, I am a trainer who will use "positive punishment" (is that the right terminology?) when necessary (it's rarely necessary) when training a stock dog. But I'd never use an e-collar except in the most desperate situation if the dog's life depended on it. 

J.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used an e-collar for two types of situation:

 

1-) Snake training.  Ie: When I desire to create a negative association/fear in the dog.  It is very rare to have this kind of thing come up. 

 

2-) As a reward marker for my deaf dog when she was younger and less senile.  This is obviously not traditional usage as it meant GOOD THINGS for her. 

 

I have used punishment of various sorts for other things, but never e-collars. 


Otherwise, no.  Are you paying ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to what people are telling you about the stupidity of what you're trying to do in general, or these chain places in particular?  If not - maybe just stop and come back when your dog is now actively dangerous or having more trouble.  Because that's the only thing going down this path is going to lead to.


the place you are looking into has *actually killed dogs* and their training isn't. 

You know nothing about this type of training.

People who are actually good trainers and usee things like e-collars will not use them for fear or aggression issues because of the risk, so none of them are going to help you with this.


For the love of your dog LISTEN TO PEOPLE  before you get someone hurt and your dog dead. /

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you considered the fact it may not be harmful to you, however, you're placing this on your dogs neck. Close to the brain, the eyes, the mouth...

If you must..use these methods w/o the collar. Use food, use rewards, use a long line. Set your boy up to succeed. Not fail. Start with baby steps, don't expect him to know anything. 

It's not stimulation. It's a correction when the dog actually doesn't even know what you are asking. Don't assume he knows, he doesn't. Switch up your command words, start fresh. Start clean, start new. Make it a game and make yourself the best game in town.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, CptJack said:

Compare her body language and general demeanor to what's in the 'demonstration'  video above.

Molly's showing some stress signals like sneezing and lip licking in that first video, but combined with the rest of her body language it's pretty clear that it's the excitement of anticipation of performing whatever the next cue is that CptJack's going to give.

Very definitely a totally different dog than the Molly CptJack used to tell us about when she was a puppy.

And very definitely a very different dog trained with positive methods to the ones we saw in the other videos. Molly is having fun. The other dogs most definitely were not. Which do you want for your dog?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look up the science of stress and how it relates to learning, stress is not necessarily a bad thing at all when training. Also, you have to take into consideration what the dog was like before, and determine if the slight stress signals it’s showing now are better than the reactions it was having before. (I haven’t watched those specific vidoes, so am just basing my comments off of what was said.) I am not opposed to positive reinforcement training, but am opposed to purely positive-I personally have not seen that type of training result in the dog behaving how I would want it to. I would actually rather go to someone who does use e collars(correctly, coupled with clear communication and positive reinforcement) than positive only trainers when dealing with any type of issues with my dogs. I’ve seen fantastic results of good trainers using e collars on fearful dogs, as partially explained by the OP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

Heres a link on e-collars. Has anyone actually had a good experience with them? 

https://thegooddog.net/training-tips/the-e-collar-myth/

Why are you even posting things like this?

Are you determined not to listen to what all of the good, knowledgeable and highly experienced people and trainers here are telling you over and over?  If that is the case, then why are you even here? We do not need to look at any more links about e-collars. We all know what they are and what they do. We all know how the use of one will affect a dog who is fearful, most especially one who is fear aggressive.  

There are ( very rarely) appropriate uses for an e-collar.  THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM!

Use of this kind of thing in this circumstance will not improve the situation, and most especially in the hands of people who are not in any way qualified to use it correctly has a high probability of worsening the dog's attitude, fear, and behavior to the point that your dog cannot be rehabilitated. Usually this means the death of the dog, which could have been prevented with the right kind of training. You say you love your dog, and yet you are refusing to listen to the advice you are getting here which is overwhelmingly against the route you are taking?  I do not understand this at all. 

I agree with Julie: If you refuse to listen to our advice (after coming here and asking for advice) and continue on this path and with these so-called trainers, I feel intensely sorry for your dog, who in no way deserves this kind of treatment, and may end up being killed because of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, GentleLake said:

Molly's showing some stress signals like sneezing and lip licking in that first video, but combined with the rest of her body language it's pretty clear that it the excitement of anticipation of performing whatever the next cue is that CptJack's going to give.

Very definitely a totally different dog than the Molly CptJack used to tell us about when she was a puppy.

And very definitely a very different dog trained with positive methods to the ones we saw in the other videos. Molly is having fun. The other dogs most definitely were not. Which do you want for your dog?

 


Thank you. 

 

I mean, everything else here aside, having what I was pretty danged sure of confirmed makes me feel good.  Been a long road but as I said, no regrets in taking it.  Because that dog gets excited and anticipatory and loves, loves, loves to play - and by play I mean 'train', but lbr:  it's all a game for us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

Heres a link on e-collars. Has anyone actually had a good experience with them? 

https://thegooddog.net/training-tips/the-e-collar-myth/

 

And here are some other links you might find instructive:

"The risk of harm and misuse is admitted even by the Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association (ECMA)" who state that they are 'Not recommended for dogs with existing fear or aggression problems'." https://onekindplanet.org/uploads/publications/electric-shock-collars.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

Heres a link on e-collars. Has anyone actually had a good experience with them? 

https://thegooddog.net/training-tips/the-e-collar-myth/

Here's one snippet from this article:

"-E-collars are like electrocuting your dog. Actually, e-collars are much the same as a tens unit that us humans use frequently for physical therapy. There is no harm done to your dog. Every owner we train with has to first put the collar on themselves to feel what it’s like. They’re always surprised by what it ACTUALLY feels like."

As someone who's used tens units in treatment extensively and has also put an electric fence collar on my arm to test it, let me tell you, there's no comparison whatsoever! Even with the tens unit turned up, it was never painful. Stimulating yes, but not painful. It never made me cry out in pain. The e-fence collar zap (which, BTW, is less intense than many of the training collar settings) HURT! And I was pretty vocal about feeling it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with everything that has been said. Border collies are highly trainable and usually very sensitive, I would not dream of using one unless it was a life depending situation. Find a different trainer. I had a lovely little foster dog that left me sane, or as sane as any motion reactive border collie and she came back two years later crazy and unadopatable, we found out the adopters had been using an invisible fence in the house. 

Consider that in the UK they have been banned for training purposes. (in england and wales they can still be used for fencing) 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in favour of a balanced approach to training, to setting boundaries and using appropriate corrections (i.e. least effective correction, preferably a good stern OI!) only when necessary to protect your dog or others and using positive rewards to shape correct and desired behaviour at all other times, however, I must join in the chorus against the e collar.

Please find another trainer.

In my state in Australia, any device capable of or designed to transmit a shock to an animal is banned, even if it not used to do so.  Invisible fences, e collars - all are illegal.  I am not unhappy with this.

This is not a personal attack, this is our combined desire to protect you and your dog!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the others here. The last thing you want to do to a dog that is already jumpy and insecure (I watched the video of your dog barking) is administer a shock. The dog is already having a problem feeling secure in his environment. Administration of shocks for whatever reason will only reinforce his feeling that the world is not a safe place. That is not a productive way to go about getting the dog’s attention. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2018 at 10:07 AM, Riika said:

If you look up the science of stress and how it relates to learning, stress is not necessarily a bad thing at all when training. Also, you have to take into consideration what the dog was like before, and determine if the slight stress signals it’s showing now are better than the reactions it was having before. (I haven’t watched those specific vidoes, so am just basing my comments off of what was said.) I am not opposed to positive reinforcement training, but am opposed to purely positive-I personally have not seen that type of training result in the dog behaving how I would want it to. I would actually rather go to someone who does use e collars(correctly, coupled with clear communication and positive reinforcement) than positive only trainers when dealing with any type of issues with my dogs. I’ve seen fantastic results of good trainers using e collars on fearful dogs, as partially explained by the OP. 

Thank you! I've honestly been doing alot of research on the subject. I think everyone is so against them..

Apparently it's hard for dogs to know when they've done something we ask wrong, and the collar gives a clear communication (that's not supposed to hurt), that they got what we asked wrong. It's a faster way of learning.  It's very similar to using a clicker to mark a certain behavior rather than a word to mark it.

Apparently the issue comes into play where you have ppl that just buy these collars offline or in a pet store that cant properly utilize the tool. Whether their timing is off or they use it as a punishment tool rather than its intended purpose.

Shock collars are unable to deliver a "shock" that can physically harm a dog. Most wounds seen by vets are from contact necrosis by leaving the collar on too long(like a bed sore)

I'll do research on the facility in question and may look for another facility if these rumors are true. There is another facility on nj called sit means sit.

Telling me you feel bad for my dog..or that I'm terrible for looking into this method isn't helpful. This decision wasnt made lightly, and other options are failing with very little progress if any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh..and the dog that died in their care was in a trainers home. Was a bulldog left in his crate. She came home from somewhere and he had passed away unexpectedly, possibly from a food allergy.

Nothing to do with whatever training method they use. No injuries sustained or anything like that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say other options are failing how long have you tried any of them? Training is a process and not an instantaneous one. Most people who turn to ecollars do so for expediency--they want change and want it now. Yes, training involves stress, but the stress of using the pressure of my voice or body presence is way different than the stress of giving a dog an electric shock.

At any rate it seems you've already made up your mind and really came here seeking validation rather than being open to opposing opinions. Personally I think giving your dog time and space to get over fearfulness is *always* a better option than trying to force lack of fearfulness (how does that even work?) through aversive training.

So if your dog gives a fearful response to something you "punish" it with a shock. Can you explain what, exactly, the dog learns from that? You may extinguish certain behaviors or reactions, but I wouldn't trust that you'd have actually somehow increased the dog's stability in situations that make it fearful. In fact, I'd posit that all you've done is teach the dog not to exhibit the fearfulness that it is assuredly *still feeling.* How does that actually help the dog to feel safe and comfortable in its environment? Rather than more fearful that the things that scare it will also result in punishment if it shows fear?

For example, if you have a fear of spiders or heights and someone hits you every time you exhibit fear behaviors in those situations can you explain how that gets you over your fear? You may stop exhibiting the fear behaviors to avoid being hit, but I'd bet you'd still be afraid of those things--but just more afraid of being hit. Wouldn't an approach that actually helps you get past your fear, even if it takes five times as long, be the better, more productive approach to ensure that you could better enjoy your life, even if you can't eliminate all spiders or high spots from your activities?

J.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not actually, for the record, opposed to e-collars. 


I have a great deal of respect for some people who use them.  *I* have used them (both for snake aversion training and as a reward marker - yes, with 'stim' function' for the deaf dog in her youth ).  I even admire and respect some people who use them pretty traditionally, though they're not for me.   People who have more than 2 weeks experience before training other people's dogs and selling e-collars, for example. 


Those people pretty consistently agree that using them for fearful dogs is stupid. 


Michael Ellis is EXCELLENT.   He'd no more use corrections or a shock collar on your dog than he would suggest you light it on fire.  Because he uses e-collars and prongs and corrections but he knows dogs, he's experienced, and he's fair to the dog.

So no, I'm not anti-e-collar. 

I'm anti 'incompetent trainers, anti-'chain training places that are actually pyramid schemes' and REALLY anti-those things + using a tool that can destroy a dog and lead to long term negative consequences to the dog.   There are incompetent trainers who are also part of pyramid schemes and use cookies and clickers, too, but at worse they tend to be ineffective and consequences can be reversed without any lasting damage.


Not so true of shitty e-collar training and use. 


So, let me repeat: FIND A COMPETENT TRAINER rather than going for fast, easy, and damned chain who doesn't actually train their people and pays them primarily based on sale of e-collars *and* hires people who are so incompetent that they kill dogs and so morally shady they lie about it. 


Or keep making justifications and excuses to do what you want,  regardless of risk or harm to your dog.


But I seriously doubt you're going to find a single ounce of validation from people here and it's not because we're hippy, dippy, pure positive trainers OR moralistic idiots who don't know anything and can't train dogs.  It's because you're WRONG.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, juliepoudrier said:

When you say other options are failing how long have you tried any of them? Training is a process and not an instantaneous one. Most people who turn to ecollars do so for expediency--they want change and want it now. Yes, training involves stress, but the stress of using the pressure of my voice or body presence is way different than the stress of giving a dog an electric shock.

At any rate it seems you've already made up your mind and really came here seeking validation rather than being open to opposing opinions. Personally I think giving your dog time and space to get over fearfulness is *always* a better option than trying to force lack of fearfulness (how does that even work?) through aversive training.

So if your dog gives a fearful response to something you "punish" it with a shock. Can you explain what, exactly, the dog learns from that? You may extinguish certain behaviors or reactions, but I wouldn't trust that you'd have actually somehow increased the dog's stability in situations that make it fearful. In fact, I'd posit that all you've done is teach the dog not to exhibit the fearfulness that it is assuredly *still feeling.* How does that actually help the dog to feel safe and comfortable in its environment? Rather than more fearful that the things that scare it will also result in punishment if it shows fear?

For example, if you have a fear of spiders or heights and someone hits you every time you exhibit fear behaviors in those situations can you explain how that gets you over your fear? You may stop exhibiting the fear behaviors to avoid being hit, but I'd bet you'd still be afraid of those things--but just more afraid of being hit. Wouldn't an approach that actually helps you get past your fear, even if it takes five times as long, be the better, more productive approach to ensure that you could better enjoy your life, even if you can't eliminate all spiders or high spots from your activities?

J.

 

The bottom line reality is: 

 

Punishment decreases behavior through desire to avoid what follows- ie: some level of fear of it.    I use some punishment.  I'm not saying that being afraid of consequences is inherently bad. My dogs don't do some things because they're afraid of the consequences, though with my dog and their levels of softness, handler sensitivity and biddability, those consequences are most often an 'eh'.  

I AM saying that if the dog is effectively freaking out afraid and acting out as a result of that fear, adding more fear is not the answer.   It is not a good idea.  It is not fair.  It is not effective. 


If my dog is confident and happily raiding the trash and finds that rewarding because he gets to eat the trash, applying something aversive enough that the dog is unwilling to risk that consequence even to get to the reward of food scraps makes sense to me.  You balance the aversive/punishing factor so it's JUST strong enough to overcome the reward value of them doing the thing, and lower the value to start with so you can use milder punishment and be effective (take the food out of the trash for a while).   May or may not be what I'd do, but it's reasonable and *fair*

If my dog is freaked the crap out by other dogs, is barking and lunging and losing their mind because they are freaked out, my job there is to increase the dog's confidence and comfort.  As the dog gets more comfortable and stops freaking out, you reward the behavior that emerges (calm, quiet, doing obedience behavior, looking at you, whatever). 


In BOTH of these scenarios you reduce the motivating factor (reduce the fear of dogs, reduce the food they can find in the trash) and then you deal with the behavior that is left - either punishment to reduce undesirable behavior, or reward to increase desirable behavior or, in real life, some of both.


What you do NOT do is add more fear when what is motivating the dog's undesirable behavior is fear, or more reward when what is motivating the dog's undesirable behavior is (self)rewarding.  That's counter productive - and honestly doesn't even make any sense.


(And I did not mean to quote all of this Julie - I know you know this. I'm adding to it, but that is to say: Yes, agreed.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

There is another facility on nj called sit means sit.

Another franchise based chain. <sigh> 

There are positive reviews online, but please also consider the reviews here: http://zeebyrd.com/dog-training-reviews/real-sit-means-sit-dog-training-reviews/ and here:  https://sit-means-sit.pissedconsumer.com/review.html

And, again, please try some of these shock collars -- at different settings, because inexpert trainers who don't get the results they want on lower settings are pretty likely to increase it to try to achieve the results they want -- on yourself before believing they don't cause pain.

Would these places allow you to observe some actual training sessions before you commit -- especially sessions with dogs that have issues similar to your own?

It might also be helpful to ask some positive trainers and/or applied behavior consultants or vet behaviorists to see them at work. I believe you're a lot closer to Dr. Reisner in Media (http://www.reisnervetbehavior.com/) than to any of the Sit Means Sit franchises.

I just did a quick search on IAABC's behavior consultant locator: https://iaabc.org/consultants and there are a number of folks within 45 miles of you. I'd be willing to be money I don't have that just about any of these folks would be willing to allow you to observe some classes, even if they're not specific to your specific needs, just so you can see their techniques.

And guess what. Remember the book I suggested you look into -- Bringing Light to Shadow by Pam Dennison, a diary of her experience rehabbing her own aggressive border collie? Well, she's only about 45 miles from Jim Thorpe. Honestly, if I were still that close to her (I used to live in your area and she's probably closer to you than where I used to live) and were having to deal with what you're dealing with, I'd be calling her so fast it'd make your head spin.

I've been in some pretty frustrating situations with dogs in the past, and to answer an earlier question, yes, I did use a shock collar on a car chaser once. I'd never do it again. It was painful for him (and for me when I tried it), it made him nervous and insecure in ways he never was before for a long time afterwards, and it only worked short term. When he started chasing cars again I wasn't willing to do it to him again.

I guess I just don't understand is why this seems to be the only option you're considering when it doesn't seem like you've tried any other kind of professional help first. Like others have said, I can see how there might be situations where a shock collar might be necessary in an extreme case, but only after I'd exhausted and failed with other more humane approaches.

I truly wish you and especially your dog the best.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:42 PM, reploidphoenix said:

 When i bought him, it just added to the insecurity and instability in his life. From what they could tell at the training facility, they said i have to show him that i can be the leader he needs and nothing bad will happen in my presence..that i have to take charge.

They use e-collars to get his attention when he goes over threshold to have him refocus on me and look to me in situations that scare him, and reward his attention to me. They said he's honestly just insecure and needs his confidence lifted. 

 

wellington.jpg

The above quote makes no sense to me in context of using an e-collar. If the point is to show him that 'nothing bad will happen to him when he's in my presence' then hitting him with even a low level 'stim' with you standing right there is hardly 'nothing bad will happen to him'. You're standing right there. Out of the blue, something stung or prickled his neck that he's never felt before. That wouldn't make ME feel safe in your presence. And 4 prongs rather than 2, to spread out the stims? This is bizarre thinking, at best.

I used a TENS device on some soft tissue injuries I had. I could control the level of stim. I knew it was coming because I turned the darn thing on and off. And I still jumped when it started up. And it still felt a little bizarre. It did help my damaged muscles, though. I can't imagine how freaked out I'd be if someone else had been in charge of the device, stimming me when I had no way to understand what was happening or why.

I don't believe anyone here is going to give you the green light on e collar training for basic manners/obedience. Find a basic obedience/manners class and Work With Your Dog. Repeat your brief training sessions a few times a day. Reinforce when you catch him doing something right. There is no substitute for consistency, time, and repetition. There's no magical way to communicate with the dog other than consistency, time, and repetition. Expect this process to take a few months to get really solid on basic manners and obedience. An e collar will not magically make the way smooth and fast.

Ruth & Gibbs 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...