14month old girl getting snappy

[Salty the bordercollie]

Hi there,

just wanting some help or tips about my girl Salty. She’s 14months old, was spayed after her first heat at around 8months old. She has been taken to the beach and socialised with lots of different types of dogs when a puppy. The dog beach is quite busy with a lot of people dogs , bikes, etc. Salty would go pretty crazy when off lead as expected. But at around 6months old started to bully other dogs when she was all amped up, initially small dogs. she’s never hurt another dog but doesn’t back down when the other dog is saying no and creates a lot of noise, snapping etc and it seems like she’s being a bully. This has slowly gotten worse and she now gets in a tiff pretty much every time, so we stopped taking her. Have been trying on lead walks keeping her calm to continue socialising her through adolescence but she now snaps at every second dog!! I am very disheartened.  have been reading lots of articles, trying to work out what I’m doing wrong. I take her to K9 training every Sunday for extra socialisation and training where she is fine but won’t play with dogs afterwards. I can never have her off lead at the moment and I’m becoming an anxious dog owner it’s horrible. She also chases cars, bikes, birds anything that moves fast she wants to chase ! I understand this is the herding instinct but I feel like other bc owners I speak to have this under control, Im trying positive reinforcement training but she’s seriously very stubborn. Could this be some adolescent phase or is she being protective? Spoilt? Please help!! I love my Salty pup so much. 

 

[Riika]

First off, chasing things is not herding instinct-don’t let her do it. 

[Lawgirl]

It is difficult  to diagnose without seeing the behaviour in question, but it does sound as though she may have learned bad doggy behaviour, and not been corrected for it by another dog who won't stand for it.

I agree with Riika, chasing is not herding instinct, although it can be a style of play.  It is not a style of play that all, or even many, dogs enjoy.  If it is unwelcome, it can lead to a fight.

I have found that with my dogs, although they were quite happy to play with all sorts of dogs as puppies, as they grew older, they really only like to socialise with other similar breeds of dogs, herding breeds like other BCs, kelpies, Aussies and koolies.  My dogs seem terribly breedist.  These dogs seems to enjoy a chasing, keep your distance style of play.

It does not sound like your dog is keeping her distance, but that she is going in and nipping and being somewhat aggressive towards these dogs, especially smaller dogs.

You are trying to do everything you can, and I can see that you want to do right by your dog, but I think you need to get some professional help with this one.  If you are getting tense and upset, this will not be helping, as the tension will be getting transmitted through the leash.  There is no shame in getting help when needed.

[Salty the bordercollie]

Yes thank you for the responses!! 

Wow I thought the chasing cars and bikes etc was her trying to round them up, I must have read that wrong somewhere!! I have tried to curb the chasing cars, bikes etc and she’s now at the stage where she doesn’t lunge on lead but if she’s off lead and one goes past she locks on and goes for it. Very nerve tracking behaviour!! The ball, frisbee, high value treats etc are no match for the fast moving objects... she will always come back but after she’s run off , is she thinking she’s doing a good job by chasing these things away? Salty doesn’t chase other dogs just to be clear on that part!!

Yes I think you’re right in regards to her not being corrected by another dog when she’s displaying bad dog behaviour, playing too ruff and not backing off when the other dog has obviously had enough. Maybe she needs to be regulated a few times to understand it’s not ‘fun’. 

I also agree with the breedist comment, as she’s getting older she has definitely only got time for other working breeds where as when she was a puppy she would play with anyone. 

I’ve been taking her to a dog trainer since she started the car chasing at around 5 months, she has said that changing a dogs personality is very hard and going to the beach with all different dog personalities is difficult to come out with no problems. 

I understand Salty is also still quite young so I’m hoping if I keep on with the training and socialisation on lead she might improve over time. I just thought asking some other people on this forum might shed some light on our situation from fellow bc lovers. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. 

 

[jami74]

6 hours ago, Salty the bordercollie said:

Wow I thought the chasing cars and bikes etc was her trying to round them up, I must have read that wrong somewhere!! I have tried to curb the chasing cars, bikes etc and she’s now at the stage where she doesn’t lunge on lead but if she’s off lead and one goes past she locks on and goes for it. Very nerve tracking behaviour!! The ball, frisbee, high value treats etc are no match for the fast moving objects... she will always come back but after she’s run off , is she thinking she’s doing a good job by chasing these things away? Salty doesn’t chase other dogs just to be clear on that part!!

Yeah people say that to us too, and I've been told when I've been out with family that when he trots back and forth between us it's because he's trying to herd us

We're a long way behind you, our puppy is only six months, but we've also been working on the lunging after cars and bikes etc. I've resorted to keeping him on a long lead which he trails behind him anywhere I think there might suddenly be something to chase. It's a pain and he doesn't like it but a couple of times he's started to take flight and I've jumped on the lead and either called him or shouted after him to go down. The first couple of times he did a sort of backwards somersault as he reached the end, but it broke the chase. Now, he's more likely to slow down and listen before he gets to the end.

Edited to add: Your dog is beautiful

[D'Elle]

15 hours ago, Salty the bordercollie said:

Yes thank you for the responses!! 

Wow I thought the chasing cars and bikes etc was her trying to round them up, I must have read that wrong somewhere!! I have tried to curb the chasing cars, bikes etc and she’s now at the stage where she doesn’t lunge on lead but if she’s off lead and one goes past she locks on and goes for it. Very nerve tracking behaviour!! The ball, frisbee, high value treats etc are no match for the fast moving objects... she will always come back but after she’s run off , is she thinking she’s doing a good job by chasing these things away? Salty doesn’t chase other dogs just to be clear on that part!!

Yes I think you’re right in regards to her not being corrected by another dog when she’s displaying bad dog behaviour, playing too ruff and not backing off when the other dog has obviously had enough. Maybe she needs to be regulated a few times to understand it’s not ‘fun’. 

I also agree with the breedist comment, as she’s getting older she has definitely only got time for other working breeds where as when she was a puppy she would play with anyone. 

I’ve been taking her to a dog trainer since she started the car chasing at around 5 months, she has said that changing a dogs personality is very hard and going to the beach with all different dog personalities is difficult to come out with no problems. 

I understand Salty is also still quite young so I’m hoping if I keep on with the training and socialisation on lead she might improve over time. I just thought asking some other people on this forum might shed some light on our situation from fellow bc lovers. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. 

 

Chasing things is dog behavior, has nothing to do with herding.

You are letting her get away with things you don't want her to do by letting her off leash before she is fully trained. This is an easy mistake to make, but unfortunately will make the training now take longer. Until you have her completely trained out of her chasing behavior, do not ever allow her to be off leash, not just for your nerves but for her safety.

You can definitely train this dog to be the dog you want, but it will take 100% consistency. You cannot let her off lead and allow her to self-reward by going after things or you will undo all the work you are trying to do to train her. 

What I would do is work with her until her behavior is very solid on leash in the back yard, then let her off leash in the back yard, but not elsewhere. Make sure the behavior is solid there and don't take her on walks outside the yard for a while so she doesn't have the chance to behave badly.  Then, take her out on the leash, and work with her in very short sessions in a place where very few cars or other triggers will go by, and do this  until the good non-chasing behavior is solid, but never let her off leash. Take very gradual tiny steps up in the training. It will take time, but it is well worth it. She may not ever be a dog who can be allowed off leash, but if you work hard with her and let it take the time it needs, it can probably be trained out of her.

[Salty the bordercollie]

3 hours ago, D'Elle said:

Chasing things is dog behavior, has nothing to do with herding.

You are letting her get away with things you don't want her to do by letting her off leash before she is fully trained. This is an easy mistake to make, but unfortunately will make the training now take longer. Until you have her completely trained out of her chasing behavior, do not ever allow her to be off leash, not just for your nerves but for her safety.

You can definitely train this dog to be the dog you want, but it will take 100% consistency. You cannot let her off lead and allow her to self-reward by going after things or you will undo all the work you are trying to do to train her. 

What I would do is work with her until her behavior is very solid on leash in the back yard, then let her off leash in the back yard, but not elsewhere. Make sure the behavior is solid there and don't take her on walks outside the yard for a while so she doesn't have the chance to behave badly.  Then, take her out on the leash, and work with her in very short sessions in a place where very few cars or other triggers will go by, and do this  until the good non-chasing behavior is solid, but never let her off leash. Take very gradual tiny steps up in the training. It will take time, but it is well worth it. She may not ever be a dog who can be allowed off leash, but if you work hard with her and let it take the time it needs, it can probably be trained out of her.

Great advice thank you 

yes we let her off lead when she was a puppy thinking it was good for her to be able to get exercise. We should have done what we are doing now initially with the long line etc. good point about the self rewarding behaviour.

 Thank you so much for the advice . 

[Salty the bordercollie]

11 hours ago, jami74 said:

Yeah people say that to us too, and I've been told when I've been out with family that when he trots back and forth between us it's because he's trying to herd us

We're a long way behind you, our puppy is only six months, but we've also been working on the lunging after cars and bikes etc. I've resorted to keeping him on a long lead which he trails behind him anywhere I think there might suddenly be something to chase. It's a pain and he doesn't like it but a couple of times he's started to take flight and I've jumped on the lead and either called him or shouted after him to go down. The first couple of times he did a sort of backwards somersault as he reached the end, but it broke the chase. Now, he's more likely to slow down and listen before he gets to the end.

Edited to add: Your dog is beautiful

Thank you so much for the reply, yes we are on a long line now!!! At least you are starting early with your pup , Salty has definitely stopped lunging and slowly losing interest in the cars on walks But it did take time. All the best with your pup who I’m sure is also beautiful!! 

 

[GentleLake]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:13 AM, Salty the bordercollie said:

She also chases cars, bikes, birds anything that moves fast she wants to chase ! I understand this is the herding instinct...

No! This is predatory behavior.

Herding instinct is a modified version of predatory behavior, but it's still based in predation, not "herding" itself that are modified predatory behaviors that are selectively chosen though human intervention.

This has been discussed in further detail in a couple of threads recently. You might want to try searching using keywords like "predators," "predatory," and/or canids, all of which I think were used.

D'Elle's response was a great one. I agree you gave her too much freedom too soon, and now it's going to take longer to undo it but it can be done. Use the 3 Ps -- patience, persistence and practice.

 

[Salty the bordercollie]

2 hours ago, GentleLake said:

No! This is predatory behavior.

Herding instinct is a modified version of predatory behavior, but it's still based in predation, not "herding" itself that are modified predatory behaviors that are selectively chosen though human intervention.

This has been discussed in further detail in a couple of threads recently. You might want to try searching using keywords like "predators," "predatory," and/or canids, all of which I think were used.

D'Elle's response was a great one. I agree you gave her too much freedom too soon, and now it's going to take longer to undo it but it can be done. Use the 3 Ps -- patience, persistence and practice.

 

Yes I will check out the threads around predatory behaviour, thank you !! 

[ShellyF]

We trained Merlin early on to ‘lie down’ when cars or bikes go past. When he sees things moving (like his ball) he instinctively lies down so we essentially decided to work with that. 

If your dog prefers to ‘sit’ or ‘stand’ then that’s another option. The first few days we would treat reward every lie down and keep our foot on the leash just in case. We no longer have to treat (we just say good boy). We don’t feel the need to keep our foot on the leash all the time now but for large trucks (which seem to make him anxious) and cyclists in close proximity, we still do. 

I can see that this may not be an option for those that have to walk by busy roads but it works for us in our residential area

[D'Elle]

Best of luck with Salty. Let us know how the training goes. :-)

[reploidphoenix]

I started training the "leave it" and "here" in the house. I started with throwing a ball or toys and having her not chase. Then I moved it to the yard and did the same thing as she became successful. Then on a long lead, I would practice the same commands with cars. I started with the "here" and told her to stay or leave it. I'd keep slack in the leash so she felt she wasnt being held, but enough if she lunged I had a good hold. If she lunged I'd correct and and tell her no or leave it again.

Now at 11 months i can have her off leash. Now she sees or heres a car and looks at me immediately for direction, or starts automatically walking towards me. I tell her "here" and she lays at my feet and watches the car go by. Once the car has passed she jumps back to her feet and awaits me to throw her ball as I do on our walks around the block.(I know I should use a command for her to break, and I used "ok" in the beginning with training. Now she  understands what I want of her)She knows if she misbehaves,  our game ends and she goes back on her leash for a "boring" walk.

[Salty the bordercollie]

On 10/8/2018 at 6:36 AM, D'Elle said:

Best of luck with Salty. Let us know how the training goes. :-)

Thank you!! Yes I will, thanks again for the feedback. 

[Salty the bordercollie]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:29 PM, reploidphoenix said:

I started training the "leave it" and "here" in the house. I started with throwing a ball or toys and having her not chase. Then I moved it to the yard and did the same thing as she became successful. Then on a long lead, I would practice the same commands with cars. I started with the "here" and told her to stay or leave it. I'd keep slack in the leash so she felt she wasnt being held, but enough if she lunged I had a good hold. If she lunged I'd correct and and tell her no or leave it again.

Now at 11 months i can have her off leash. Now she sees or heres a car and looks at me immediately for direction, or starts automatically walking towards me. I tell her "here" and she lays at my feet and watches the car go by. Once the car has passed she jumps back to her feet and awaits me to throw her ball as I do on our walks around the block.(I know I should use a command for her to break, and I used "ok" in the beginning with training. Now she  understands what I want of her)She knows if she misbehaves,  our game ends and she goes back on her leash for a "boring" walk.

Thank you for the response. Yes Salty is now at the stage where she often looks to me for direction when a bike, car or other distraction approaches. Which is a great improvement, the three P’s are paying off!! We’re not at the stage where I trust her off lead but I do believe we will get there. Thanks for your input to the chat.