Pup being assessed for behavior modification

[reploidphoenix]

On 10/5/2018 at 4:56 PM, denice said:

I have no problem with correction.  I think it provides dogs with valuable info - that behavior is not accepted- simple.  BUT you need to correct at the right time and appropriately for the individual dog and 'offense.'  Every time he successfully does unwanted behavior without some sort of interruption/correction, something, it will be harder to break.  Yes some dogs are sensitive, shy, submissive... that does not give them permission to do as they wish.  They still need to know what is and is not appropriate.  I still correct I just do it differently for every dog.  Does he need a prong collar most likely not.  He needs a clear set of rules with someone he respects and trusts to let him know what those rules are.

IT IS NOT THE CORRECTION THAT WILL FIX THINGS IT IS THE FREEDOM GIVEN FOR HIM TO SORT OUT WHAT IS AND NOT THE ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. If the relationship is right the behavior modification will be tons easier. He is ultimately responsible for his actions YOU need to GUIDE his actions and teach him what he needs to know to be a well adapted, functioning member of the family.  Dont give yourself or him excuses for bad behavior.  IF he needs to stop doing something ask him to stop doing it.  Putting him in a crate does not teach him to not do it, it may prevent him from doing it but he is not learning other options or what is wanted.

Not saying I am an expert, each dog teaches me plenty.  What I do know for sure if you are clear on your expectations they will rise to meet them.  You have to be calm, confident, understanding but consistent.  Many, Many dogs are reactive because their owners are nervous and reactive.  

I dont know where you are in PA but I have had bcs for 18 years and dealt with a ton of dogs in vet clinics as a tech as a groomer and as a trainer for 25.  I would be happy to have you bring him by and work with you and him.  I am having friends here next saturday the 13th to work dogs on sheep, would be perfect time.

Thanks for the offer! I live in jim thorpe pa. I may be working next Saturday the 13th, but I'll keep you updated. 

The breeder kind of blames me for his bad behavior since he didnt show signs until a week after I had him.. trainers are telling me its probably genetic and he may always be this way. They also said the litter mates trying to kill eachother at 6-7 weeks old Is a big red flag and I should have passed.

I've wasted about $300 in assessments trying to figure out what to do with him. The breeder offered to take him back, but I'm afraid what would happen to him.

[denice]

In my 18 plus yrs with Border Collies both genetics, their start in life and their home/training come together to affect the dog.

I sold a pup to some folks years ago.  Sounded like a great home and great people.  The family did not have much dog experience but were pleasant, educated, professional...The pup was a nice, calm, female middle of the litter pleasant pup.  In two weeks she was growling and would not let them take her bone.  I would have no problem correcting that pup, taking the bone and then everyday working on that behavior and others when they arise as a natural product of a dog maturing.  They did not do that, they did not bring her down so I could help them.  A year later they called with more problems - lunging barking at people and dogs, unable to board because she was 'aggressive', had bit the vet...On meds was told it was genetic...

Well I had the parents and littermates from 2 litters.  The problem was they did not ever teach her what was acceptable and was not.  She was allowed to do anything and uncomfortable having a lead role.  They were going on vacation and had no idea what they were going to do.  I said bring her down, I will keep her and work on training.  

Well she was a shit -tried that barking, snarling stuff with me and I flipped a big towel at her, backed her down the drive way on lead till she thought I had lost my mind.  Never hurt her of course, it was a bath towel after all.  Yes I scared her, heck she scared me too.  BUT she learned I was not going away, I was the one calling the shots and that crap didn't fly.  She was here for 10 days, took her into my vet clinic twice.  She growled once, I corrected verbally, she submitted, done.  Never any more trouble with me or strangers at my place, no drugs needed. I offered to take her back but they wanted to keep her.  Her people came back to a different dog.  I showed them how to correct effectively, what to look for, suggested changes at home.

It is easy to say problems are this or that.  Dogs will tell you what they need if you listen.  Most relax with a clear set of rules and someone they trust in charge.  Some take a bit to change behaviors and get them on a good path.  It is likely a combination of things.  I have learned there are dogs out there in the wrong homes - no ones fault just not a good fit.  Find them the right home and everyone is happier.

My offer stands I can help but you would have to come here for me to do either of you any good.

 

[ShellyF]

Interesting! 

I have a question, if you had a pup that wasn’t bad enough for the bath towel routine but started with the snarling barking nipping - what would your correction be? A calm ignore, a firm ‘no’ or something else? 

[NCStarkey]

Shelly, I am not Denice, but in my opinion, the correction and the intensity of the correction that it is used is never a "one size fits all".   For a young puppy that is resource guarding for the first time (i.e. grumbling over food), a mild verbal correction may be all that is necessary to change the pup's behavior.  If that wasn't enough to change the pup's mind, then the correction should gradually increase until the pup learns that grumbling isn't allowed or necessary.  The pup that Denice described had been displaying increasingly inappropriate and dangerous behavior for a year, therefore she needed quite harsh correction from the start.  Ignoring inappropriate and potentially dangerous behavior is exactly what caused that pup's issues.  Denice also mentioned the need for us to be a leader for our dogs, as they need us to set clearly defined parameters (rules).  That, along with our love and affection (and in the case of a Border Collie, a purpose), our pups will thrive.  

[reploidphoenix]

I was blaming it on genetics because his relatives in the area have fear related issues. One acts as denise described.

I did speak with another trainer and set up an appointment for Wednesday.  They set a program to fit the dogs needs, but I dont know the extent of what he needs. I was a bit reluctant because they use prong, e-collars along with positive training..

I'm going to see what they have to offer. When I spoke with them, they seem to think he just has confidence issues.

He did have food aggression when I got him.  He got his butt smacked which I was told I should have never done because it can make him bite without warning in the future..but it fixed the issue. Haven't had a problem since

[denice]

Shelly I don't ever have a dog or pup do that kind of thing twice because I nip it in the bud first time they THINK about it.  Not uncommon for a young dog to test the waters and see how far he can push things.  Resource guarding, food aggression is normal I think.  Just look at pups eating, everyone is trying to get their share.  The more aggressive, dominate,scary the more food you get.  Fine for a pack of dogs, not fine for a dog living with people.

The correction must fit the situation.  Least amount of correction to make them think twice and decide it is not worth repeating.

If the pup is growling or snarling over food or objects I would have a leash and collar on it. verbally correct harshly enough it looks up at me, reach down calmly and take the object matter of factly.  Like sorry bratty little kid, if you cant be nice you can't have it.  Then sit down wiith the pup and bowl and either feed him by hand or just be around while he ate, snarl correct take it and give it back.  I would want the pup watching me and giving me some sign that I am in charge. Dropped ears, tail, backs off...An ok I give up you can have it.  Once that happens it should be fine.  But with that dog I would ask others to be around while he ate to make sure he didn't try to be bossy with them.

The dog I talked about had gotten away with being a jerk for a year, had bitten people and everyone was afraid of her.  I needed her to know right away that Crap was different here and I made the rules not her.  I had to get in her head fast or I was concerned she would get worse.

I had a great pyr pup growl once over food, did a similar thing, backed him down a drive way with my hat in hand slapping my leg telling him off.  Done, could open his mouth and take food from him every day of his life.  He was going to be a 100 lb dog, I could not let him get away with it.

Dogs know when you are bluffing, when you are serious and Authentic.  You have to get to the place where you are clear what is allowed and not and set rules firmly.  Any behavior that could grow to biting I see as life threatening for the dog.  Behavior/ biting gets dogs killed.  if fixed first time they simply do not go there again, at least not with me.  It is not that I hit them or threaten them or worse just put them in a crate and expect that to fix it because it will not - it avoids it - I deal with it firmly, done over we move on.  Don't hold it against them or avoid it, check back and make sure we have it covered but they understand I am serious and it is unacceptable behavior. FIRM< FAIR CONSISTENT.

You have to think LONG TERM, not that it is a pup doing puppy things but that one day soon it will be an adult dog with bone crushing jaws...be faster and stronger than you...is the behavior going to ok then or not.  If not it is not ok now either.  you can't have two sets of rules.

Again not the correction that works it is giving the dog the freedom to choose and think, allowing him to know the rules and expectations.  Most pups will growl over food, they are dogs not people, most kids will have a temper tantrum...it is what happens next that sets the tone.  A matter of fact knock it off in a gruff voice, a waterbottle squirt, a hand clap, a foot stomp, a hat tossed...every dog is different but it is the determination and authority YOU have that makes him think - better not go there again.

[ShellyF]

Thanks  

Ours is fine with food and possessions and he’s very polite most of the time. He just doesn’t know how to ask to play nicely (he nips and growls) and I know I need to teach him the right way to ask l. i’m fine if I can pre empt the situation (I can go into training mode) but when he catches me unawares I can’t ignore him (he bites more), crating him ends up being a game to him and verbal correction winds him up. I know I need to be consistent. I remain unconvinced that i’m Dealing with this properly although trying to follow the advice I receive on these boards. 

He’s always had a tendency to get cranky when overtired but my family think he needs more exercise. 

[reploidphoenix]

18 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

Thanks  

Ours is fine with food and possessions and he’s very polite most of the time. He just doesn’t know how to ask to play nicely (he nips and growls) and I know I need to teach him the right way to ask l. i’m fine if I can pre empt the situation (I can go into training mode) but when he catches me unawares I can’t ignore him (he bites more), crating him ends up being a game to him and verbal correction winds him up. I know I need to be consistent. I remain unconvinced that i’m Dealing with this properly although trying to follow the advice I receive on these boards. 

He’s always had a tendency to get cranky when overtired but my family think he needs more exercise. 

How old is your dog? Sounds like an overly tired pup or over-arousal(the cranky). As far as being nippy, I would make a loud noise or stomp my foot, smack a table hard and say no. Only thing that ever got mines attention 

[ShellyF]

He’s six months. 

[reploidphoenix]

I used to shove a toy in their mouth. Say no firmly. Mine used to try to nip feet. I'm not really sure quite what stopped it. I would push through her biting and tell her no, sometimes I smacked her butt. She eventually just grew out of it, but I noticed it got alot worse when she was tired. She refused to lay herself down and I would have to force her to take a nap in her crate. 

[denice]

Make sure you are using appropriate tones - deeper, slow, harsh for correction.  If verbal correction winds him up he is not thinking it of a correction.  Either your tone is wrong or intention is wrong or attitude that he is not 'believing' you.  Some people tend to get higher tone and faster speech

 when upset so dogs interpret that not as a correction