Are some BCs just "not good" with other dogs?

[Lunabaluna23]

Hi Everyone!

I have a 3 1/2 year old BC named Luna who is honestly a part of the family. She is amazing with all people all ages! Especially with our toddler daughter. She is smart, pretty calm (for a BC!), and a major people pleaser. She is great with dogs she has grown up around and in the past has been great with other herding breeds and BCs. 

So to get to my main question I need help with: Are some BCs just "not good" with other dogs? 

Background: Luna used to be very hyper (like all BCs), had a hard time listening to commands, was super reactive on lease,  not great at the dog park with other dogs (when they interrupted her playing ball) and was honestly super anxious. We sought out an amazing trainer who worked with her and more importantly worked with us so we knew what to do and those issues disappeared 150%. Flash forward to last spring I was out walking Luna with my 3 month old daughter and 2 huge aggressive dogs dragged their owner down the street and across the road (the lady was literally laying on her stomach psychically being dragged and got pretty injured) to get to us. The dogs initially went for the stroller but Luna body blocked the stroller as I pushed it away into the grass. Not only did Luna take the brunt end of the attack (3 punctures on her throat that needed stitching and one that needed draining on her leg)  but  I was bite several time and broke a bone in my foot from a bite. Luna and I hadn't even noticed them coming until it was too late. Luna and I both needed medical treatment but made a full recovery. Mentally however I am still working on not being anxious when out around dogs we don't know. Luna seemed to perfectly fine mentally, but with my fears our time out and about became less and we stuck to more work outs and walks in areas I knew we would encounter very few dogs. 

With all that being said, today we took Luna to a polo match (my husband is not anxious with her whatsoever and is super calm). Luna did amazing on and off leash, stayed with us 100% did not bark, or pull once, was able to walk all around weaving in and out of the crowds horses and other leashed dogs without any issues. My fears were gone... until a younger pup came up to say hello to Luna. They sniffed each other, got nose to nose, she tolerated that for about 2 mins, and then snapped at him and started to follow him teeth bare as he ran to his owners. My husband was able to quickly correct her, she immediately listened to him and that was that. Our family has mixed reviews on the subject. Some saying that she just "isn't good with other strange dogs especially after the attack. Others think I am reading into what happened way too much and its normal for some dogs to just not "click".  Could this be from our attack still? Or has anyone else experienced similar BC behavior? 

Any advice would be greatly and deeply appreciated to help with my mental state and help me try to keep Luna and myself on the right track to healing. I want Luna to have the best life possible! Thank you in advanced! 

[GentleLake]

Background: Not all border collies are hyper.

I'm sorry to hear about the terrible incident you and Luna had. You say that you're nervous about other dogs, so it's quite possible that Luna's sensing that from you and acting accordingly.

As for the meeting with the puppy, you say Luna did well with the initial greeting. In the ensuing 2 minutes did the puppy do anything other than continue to sniff her? Or did he maybe try to elicit some play?

Either way, even just sniffing nose to nose for 2 minutes is a long time and Luna may have just been telling the puppy that the greeting was over and now it was time for him to mind his own business. My own dog, a registered therapy dog (IOW, tested for appropriate behavior with unfamiliar dogs), would probably have done the same thing only in perhaps a milder manner. He tolerates puppies only for a moment or two and then he's done. He'll give a slight lip lift and low growl to inform the puppy that he's had enough. If the puppy persists, he'll tell it a bit more forcefully with an air snap, which has always been enough to make his point.

Is it possible Luna also gave some very subtle warnings before the big show of teeth? Sometimes these warnings are pretty subtle and can be missed by humans, but they're almost always easily read by other dogs. Puppies may choose to ignore them at first, and require a second warning. Rarely will it go any further than that unless the puppy's particularly obtuse and/or very under socialized with other dogs. Do know, however, that if Luna had wanted to hurt this puppy, she would have. She was entirely in control of the situation and meant no real harm to the pup.

In answer to your original question, sure, some border collies are just "not good" with other dogs . . . just like any individual dog of any breed or mix may just not be good with other dogs. I really don't believe that border collies are any more prone to inter-dog aggression than any other breed or mix, although they may have limited tolerance for rude or goofy dog behavior and have different play styles from some other types.

[CptJack]

Honestly, I am of the opinion that MANY border collies are just not good with other dogs - if you mean 'are willing to play with strange dogs, put up with rough play and/or puppies and extended face to face greetings' as opposed to 'exist near them without starting crap'.  I don't think they're more likely to be outright aggressive, or seek out conflict, than other breeds - in fact probably (Much) less than many.  However, willing to growl, bark, and air snap to make very clear that they're not interested in playing and to protect their personal space?  Yep.  Very common. 

My dog spent all day at an agility trial today and was very polite, comfortable, relaxed and lovely. 

Until a wound up puppy came charging and zooming into her face.  At which point, you bet, my girl said 'get the 'eff' of of my face'' loudly.  Do I have a problem with that? No.  Do I view that as 'bad' behavior or aggression? Nope. I have a problem with a non-entered puppy,  owned by a non-competing human, allowing her wound up and over aroused tiny dog to zoom around at the end of an excessively long leash though! And I certainly consider that bad behavior!

[CptJack]

Also:  

Yes, as GL said, 2 minutes of nose to nose greeting is a lot and a good way to keep this from happening is to allow about 3-5 seconds if you're going to let a nose-to-nose or onleash greeting to happen, and then call your dog out and away from it.  Dogs face to face for an extended amount of time almost ALWAYS ends up with a warning from one dog that the interaction is OVER, now back the heck up.  Could be subtle, could be more overt, but it's not great behavior for more than a second or two, and rarely ends well.

[Lunabaluna23]

Thank you both for responding! This was so helpful and is helping put my mind at easy a lot! I am trying very hard to get my own fears under control. 

GL- haha I guess your right there are non hyper BCs out there! I should be specific and say Luna was a very hyper and happy BC puppy! No signs of play behavior were elicited (that we could notice) but the pup defiantly continued to keep its face in Luna's face. Luna did kind of turn her face away from the pup while keeping her eye on him, however when the puppy ran over to greet/play with Luna she was in "place" - a command that means she is to lay down in that spot until she hears her release word, my husband was about to start working with Luna running through her commands and fun tricks she loves so maybe she was ready to start working and the pup coming over messed up her flow. My husband did give her the release command from "working" and being in "place" when the pup came over- but Luna loves to "work" and people please. Yeah I wouldn't call her aggressive by any means that she is uncontrollable or trying to hurt other dogs. She can walk by countless dogs who are on leash and out of control (and off leash too) and stay by our side and mind her own business its only during some dog-to--dog interactions we see her air snap and advance to warn off the other dog when shes done I guess 

CptJack- Yes I meant exactly that: "if you mean 'are willing to play with strange dogs, put up with rough play and/or puppies and extended face to face greetings' as opposed to 'exist near them without starting crap'. After being trained and more importantly us learning what to do she never ever started anything but has a low tolerance for immature, hyper, noncontrolled, overly rough, dog to dog interactions. She can walk by lines of dogs who are barking and pulling at close proximity without even noticing! And I think thats a great point that we control the interactions to a quick hello sniff and then be on our way. 

[GentleLake]

7 hours ago, Lunabaluna23 said:

Luna did kind of turn her face away from the pup while keeping her eye on him

Then it sounds like Luna's very good at dog speak. She was telling the puppy she didn't want an altercation and that she was no threat. And that air snap she does with other dogs is also a communication that she's indeed done and doesn't want to interact with them in whatever way it is anymore.

7 hours ago, Lunabaluna23 said:

...she never ever started anything but has a low tolerance for immature, hyper, noncontrolled, overly rough, dog to dog interactions.

While I don't consider that as generally "not getting along with other dogs," yeah, it's very typical of border collies to not want to hang out and participate in that kind of rowdiness.

It's not even that they're not social with other dogs. It's just that they're more selective about which dogs they want to associate with. I'm also like that with people. I don't enjoy loud parties or being around people who are vacuous and goofy. It doesn't mean I don't get along with people; it just means I'm selective about the types of people I choose to engage with. Unfortunately for them sometimes, companion dogs don't often get to choose what other dogs they can associate with, especially when they're all on the other end of a leash.

Have you had an opportunity for Luna to spend some time with other border collies? I highly recommend it if you can arrange it. I suspect you'll see a very different dog socially than the one you see meeting random dogs when you're out and about. My socially-selective-with-strangers dogs have always been entirely different when they've had an opportunity to be with a group of other border collies. You can practically hear them say, yeah! This is my tribe! as they run off to play chase games with them.

BTW, it's also not that border collies are universally distant with puppies. They'll happily play with puppies, even puppies (and adults) of other breeds and types in their own homes and packs.

[urge to herd]

^^^ What they all said. This is repetitious, but dogs communicate through body language a LOT. Most of it is subtle and it's not that easy for us humans to read, unless we have a lot of experience.

Gibbs is very, very good with puppies, even seeks them out. He plays appropriately and corrects appropriately. The boarding kennels I've taken him to automatically put him in with puppies, if they have any, he's that good with them.

He's pretty good with small adult dogs, BUT if they're too rude, he appropriately corrects them, too. 

It sounds to me, Lunabalance, that Luna is well-trained and has a good basic 'character', too. Good for you! I wouldn't worry about it further. Just keep an eye on what the other dog is doing. You'll pick up more and more on what's ok and what's not in dog speak.

Ruth & Gibbs

 

[alligande]

I fully agree with what everyone has said and will add I have found border collies to breed snobs. None of my border collies have enjoyed playing with rough and tumble breeds, think labs and pit bulls. They do enjoy the company of other border collies and dogs who respect their style of play which is different. My current two will wrestle and get very physical with each other but would never play that way with a stranger not even a strange border collie. I believe it is simply a matter of trust.

[D'Elle]

I will toss in another agreement with the opinion that border collies can be breed snobs. My Jester was as good-natured a dog as one could find, but he did not suffer fools gladly. And according to him, any dog who got up in his face or tried to distract him from fetching (which was Very Serious Business) was a fool. He had many levels of saying "back off", starting with something very subtle and slowly escalating to snarl-snap. But, put him in a huge fenced-in enclosure with about 30 other border collies and he was fine with all of them. They "spoke his language", were his tribe.

[Lunabaluna23]

Thank you everyone this is super helpful! I have been on the look out for a border collie group of some kind here in Rhode Island where we are currently living! Thank you all again so much!