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AKA the long down. http://sanityshome.blogspot.com/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html

I have searched for information on this exercise on here, but have not really found any thing. I am more interested in peoples opinions and thoughts about it. Good or bad. It seem fairly simple and straight forward. 

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Meh. Lost me at dominance. 

It also seems a very clear-cut way to train the long down, which is useful in a lot of situations. If you take your dog to work, for example, and want it to stay  no matter what you do, get started with this.

If you have a dog who is constantly seeking attention, the long down is also good. Teaches them they aren't the center of the universe. 

Ruth & Gibbs

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I have done that with my dog and have found it helpful. Perhaps not surprisingly, in the rooms where I have tried it (namely: office) she goes in on her own now to lie down and relax. In rooms where I haven't done it as often (e.g. living room), she's more apt to want to play or run around. Could be coincidental, but I've started working more on her long down in the living room. 

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That is just a word. I can imagine this could be helpfull for dogs that are kept at home, visit office environments, pubs etc.

Think personally its a bit farfetched to call it an "exercise" though, but that just depends on how you want to define that term.

Won't do it myself for the simple reason I have no need for a "long down" in the daily life of my dogs.

If that would change I think I wouldn't reserve special  "training" for it, just something a dog would pick up on the fly. They seem to make such a big thing out of it, sitting for an extended period with your dog on a leash beside you. Difficult to imagine anything simpler to do with your dog.

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16 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Meh. Lost me at dominance. 

Same here. Not an appropriate attitude toward the dog or dog training.

But I have done similar things,,,, putting one foot on the leash, for instance, to encourage the dog to get used to the idea of lying under the table at a restaurant, or under a desk.

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For those of you that don't like the word dominance maybe this is a better explanation.

The “sit on the dog” exercise often feels like you are “not doing anything” with your dog, and people are sometimes tempted to not do it. To skip this exercise is to deny your dog the gift of self-confidence, self-control, and “doggy zen.” It teaches your dog how to calm himself down by choice, it teaches him to defer to you when you are not able to pay attention to him, and it teaches him that yes, he is fully capable of relaxing quietly, something puppies can have a hard time learning. “Sit on the dog” is an excellent exercise for achieving the overall leadership role you should have with your dog.

 

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I couldn't see the bit that mentioned dominance :unsure:. I didn't think it looked too horrible, although I am no expect in dog psychology.

I suppose we do a similar thing when we sit on a bench for a rest during our walks and expect our puppy to lay quietly at our feet, but this looks like a deliberate way to train it. I'm not sure if I could sit still for a whole 30 minutes though. And I wonder a little bit if any of the dogs started chewing the chair legs.

4 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

It seems as if it is a fairly good off switch. He sure is easier to train afterwards.

Yes! I've heard about how it is so important to teach an off switch, but not really understood how with my puppy. We tried to train it at puppy classes but only for about 5 minutes at time which wasn't long enough for him to get the idea before the next exciting activity.

My last dog came everywhere with me, I don't know if he was super relaxed or just exhausted because we worked long hours, but pretty much if I stopped moving then he would too. If I sat at a desk he'd lay under it, if I needed to attend to a horse he would lay outside the stable, when I visited people he would settle nearby or outside the door if he wasn't allowed in, when I went home to sleep then he would sleep too. This puppy isn't a 'come to work with me' dog so isn't on the go all day, he is expected to spend periods of time at home relaxing, I suppose that's why he has two super active periods every day.

 

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2 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

 To skip this exercise is to deny your dog the gift of self-confidence, self-control, and “doggy zen.” 

 

Wow, I didn't realise what a horrible dog trainer I was, skipping this "exercise" ( sitting on my behind for at least half an hour doing nothing with the dog tied up next to me wasn't it?), that really really jolted my consience. No selfconfidence, no selfcontrol, and -gasp!- no zen. All that denied to my poor dogs,. My eyes are tearing up you know...Ah well,  I am off to do some stockwork now and I'll make sure to apologize to them...

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2 hours ago, jami74 said:

I couldn't see the bit that mentioned dominance :unsure:. I didn't think it looked too horrible, although I am no expect in dog psychology. 

 

4th paragraph, 1st line: "This is an exercise in dominance and leadership."

The activity itself is not horrible. I don't agree with what the writer is saying. Dominance theory, IMO, places too much emphasis on the human's need to point out that he/she is the one in control All The Time For Everything. And I've not read one word about partnership between human and dog from the 'dominance & leadership' folks.

For me, I know and act like I'm in charge. I've got the car keys, the $, etc. My life is largely centered around me and my needs/wants.  I need/want a dog as a partner and companion. If I ever find Gibbs walking out the door with one of my credit cards, I might re-think that. 

My training skills can always be better. I spoil him. He sleeps on the foot of my bed. I buy him special treats and take him with me a lot. I go to a restaurant that allows dogs on the patio and have a beer once a month or so with friends. And they bring THEIR dogs. Guess what, when I tell him to do something, he does it, even if he doesn't want to. He's only allowed on the bed when I ask him.

My point is, I make the decisions about how any dog of mine behaves. I train it in. I prevent what I don't want/don't like/is unsafe for me or him.  If there's a behavior I'm having trouble with, I've got a ton of resources, both here and in my 'real world' community. And I've very clear, I'm the one responsible for the dog's behavior.

As I said earlier, the long stay is a great behavior to teach, and for some might be necessary, and this technique seems reasonable to me. It's not a NECESSARY behavior in the way that sit/down/here/stay are, for me. I bet a lot of people don't need this behavior, have never thought about it, and both they and their dogs are doing just fine, thank you.

I'd add in make sure the dog & the human have peed, etc, before you start this one!. 

Ruth & Gibbs

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4 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

For those of you that don't like the word dominance maybe this is a better explanation.

The “sit on the dog” exercise often feels like you are “not doing anything” with your dog, and people are sometimes tempted to not do it. To skip this exercise is to deny your dog the gift of self-confidence, self-control, and “doggy zen.”  “Sit on the dog” is an excellent exercise for achieving the overall leadership role you should have with your dog.

 

I react strongly to the above words because I have literally seen people screaming at their dogs, yanking small dogs around on leashes, etc in order to be 'dominant'. And there are other ways to teach your dog self-control. Not better ways, just different. Perhaps better suited to other situations or other owners' needs.

Again, the method outlined would be one I'd use in a heartbeat if I had a need. I react strongly to any suggestion that there is only one way correct way to teach a dog xyz. Or only one way to do anything else, for that matter. I have some friends who train service dogs, real service dogs. I'll ask them how they teach a long down and report back.

Ruth & Gibbs

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9 minutes ago, urge to herd said:

4th paragraph, 1st line: "This is an exercise in dominance and leadership."

I need/want a dog as a partner and companion. 

As I said earlier, the long stay is a great behavior to teach, and for some might be necessary, and this technique seems reasonable to me. It's not a NECESSARY behavior in the way that sit/down/here/stay are, for me. I bet a lot of people don't need this behavior, have never thought about it, and both they and their dogs are doing just fine, thank you.

Ah yes, see it now, thanks.

I agree with absolutely everything you said. :)

Reading the back history bit I got the impression that this 'exercise' was aimed at people with pet dogs who had probably struggled with teaching the sit/down/here/stay etc. rather than trainers and owners who already had dogs who behaved appropriately according to their trainers/owners requirements.

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On 9/10/2018 at 6:01 PM, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

AKA the long down. http://sanityshome.blogspot.com/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html

I have searched for information on this exercise on here, but have not really found any thing. I am more interested in peoples opinions and thoughts about it. Good or bad. It seem fairly simple and straight forward. 

 

7 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

For those of you that don't like the word dominance maybe this is a better explanation.

The “sit on the dog” exercise often feels like you are “not doing anything” with your dog, and people are sometimes tempted to not do it. To skip this exercise is to deny your dog the gift of self-confidence, self-control, and “doggy zen.” It teaches your dog how to calm himself down by choice, it teaches him to defer to you when you are not able to pay attention to him, and it teaches him that yes, he is fully capable of relaxing quietly, something puppies can have a hard time learning. “Sit on the dog” is an excellent exercise for achieving the overall leadership role you should have with your dog.

 

I was just curious on what everyone thought about it. The last quote was from http://doggiefunandfitness.com/2016/12/sit-on-the-dog/.  

I am having problems with Tucker and was looking for answers. I just got back from obedience class. Tucker is afraid of people, all people. When they try to play with him he tries to bite and get away. Even when I try to interact with him he tries to bite me. When I pick him up he tries to bite and is just uncontrollable. I do have a vet appointment Thursday to get him checked out. I have tried this _sit on the dog" a couple of times and the interaction between us seems to be much better. The instructor said I need to be more firm with him and not let him get aways with this. She is not advocating that I hurt him or use any kind of aggressiveness with him just be firm and not tolerate his behavior.

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If Tucker's afraid of people, don't let them approach him. Step between your puppy & the approaching human, and say something like, "Please don't try to pet him. I'm training him right now and need to keep his focus on me."  If they persist, (and some people will) turn and walk away with Tucker.

I've never had a puppy, so have no experience to offer. I have dealt with very, very fearful dogs, and keeping strangers away is one thing I got very good at.

Glad you're taking him to the vet, I hope you get some answers. 

Ruth & Gibbs

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We had a dog that was fearful of people (and dogs). She was an adult though. What helped her was teaching her that not all people "wanted something from her".

So we made sure no one approached her on walks, like urge to herd said. We also asked some friends to walk around and not look at her and just go about their business,  both inside the house and outside. First from quite far away and getting closer and closer each session at a pace that the dog found comfortable. This made her more relaxed around people, she just didn't feel comfortable being touched by strange people. Eventually she started to like some of our friends, not all, and felt good about ignoring everyone else.

 

I think a long down or "sit on the dog" can be really helpful in a lot of situations. We used something like it to teach the fearful dog to be around our cat. I think it could be one of many ways to teach your dog to "just be with me". 

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19 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

It seems as if it is a fairly good off switch.

I wasn't planning on following this exercise, for a start I don't have the right sort of chair :lol: but I read lots and lots of articles and take from them what I can. This morning we had got back from our morning walk/training outside (I've suddenly figured out how to do loose lead walking! Like a whole ten minutes of actually walking around with a dangly lead and a puppy next to me! OMG, how did it take me so long?), spent another 5-10 minutes playing ball, pottered around the garden together doing jobs, sniffed out some treats and had breakfast. After an hour of attention it was time for me to sit down and puppy to do his own thing, which unfortunately consisted of running outside barking at every tiny noise, jumping on the sofa and trying to sneak off with things he's not meant to have. So I put the lead on him and sat down in my comfy chair. Within a minute he had laid down. He didn't bark at the outside noises which were bothering him before and now he's gone to sleep :o. I'm sure the seasoned owners here will be scornful that I hadn't managed to teach an instant off switch before, but I honestly needed someone to explain how in simple terms like this.

8 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

I am having problems with Tucker and was looking for answers. I just got back from obedience class. Tucker is afraid of people, all people. When they try to play with him he tries to bite and get away. Even when I try to interact with him he tries to bite me. When I pick him up he tries to bite and is just uncontrollable.

Our puppy got odd about people, despite being super friendly and meeting loads of people when he was smaller. He looks like he wants to meet them, wags his tail, creeps over to them etc but as soon as they go to interact with them he gets snappy and backs away (he doesn't bite them, just snaps his jaws). The best meetings are when we meet someone who ignores him completely, while he does his creeping over to sniff and tail wagging thing, and then eventually offer him a hand to sniff but don't bend over him or try to fondle his head. (Interestingly these people seem to be more likely to have border collies). Someone explained to me on another thread, he doesn't have to like everyone, he must just know not to bite them. We've since practiced meetings and greetings with family members, a sort of run through of how to behave if we have to say hello to someone but with people we know and trust. And we make sure it's a quick greeting and then move away before he gets snappy. I don't mind if our puppy doesn't play with people he doesn't know, just because he looks cute it doesn't give people an automatic right to handle him.

I can't remember exactly how old Tucker is, but we had a definite turning point around 4/5 months. It suddenly started to feel like we were on the same side, he became more of a family member and less like a spoilt guest. Maybe I started to treat him more like a family member and placed expectations on him. I know some people are against reprimands but I certainly gave him a couple of harsh verbal telling offs and then ignored him until I was ready to interact with him again. I'm not suggesting that's the right thing to do but it's the way I'd react if any of my family members bit me and I felt that I'd been patient about his mouthing/teething/puppyness for long enough. We have moments when I think he's growing into the perfect dog, and moments when I think getting a puppy was the stupidest thing I've ever done, but the latter are getting fewer. Are you having good moments?

Oh, and our puppy had a few mis-behaviour days where his gums looked particularly sore so I tried to be more patient and offered chew toys and ice cubes frequently.

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6 hours ago, Flora & Molly said:

she just didn't feel comfortable being touched by strange people.

I believe this may be more of what Tucker objects too more than anything. He don't like to be touched. People at my obedience class will get down to his level and try and call him over with treats in hand. Tucker wants to go see them and sometimes he does but when the treat is gone and they try to touch him he runs like crazy. If they do get to pet him he rolls over on his back with his legs kicking like crazy and starts bitting to get away. He does the same with me to a lesser extent, except I will not tolerate any more. I just hold him them until he calms down and tell him no bite, when he stops I tell him what a good boy he is while petting him. Whether it be right or wrong I have to do something.

Tucker is 15 weeks old

 

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We sort of did this inadvertently since I work from home. We didn't use a collar and leash, though. I taught her "get in your bed" which can move around the house, wherever I want her. (That was easy: just treat in the bed. 3 times and she had it.) Then, when I want to work, I just put the bed by my desk and tell her to, "get in your bed." If she gets up to move, and I want her to settle down, I just tell her to get back in her bed. At some point, I'll get up and walk around, she'll get water, play, etc. I'll sit back down, and usually she'll get in her bed out of habit. If not, and she's not being crazy or harassing the cat, I'll just let her wander and do her thing. But when she's starting to get antsy (by this time, I usually am, too) I'll take her out for a while, then tell her to, "get in your bed" when we get back. It all sort of evolved naturally, no dominance required. (But she's naturally a bit submissive anyway, and a real mistress-pleaser.)

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1 hour ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

I believe this may be more of what Tucker objects too more than anything. He don't like to be touched. People at my obedience class will get down to his level and try and call him over with treats in hand. Tucker wants to go see them and sometimes he does but when the treat is gone and they try to touch him he runs like crazy. If they do get to pet him he rolls over on his back with his legs kicking like crazy and starts bitting to get away. He does the same with me to a lesser extent, except I will not tolerate any more. I just hold him them until he calms down and tell him no bite, when he stops I tell him what a good boy he is while petting him. Whether it be right or wrong I have to do something.

Tucker is 15 weeks old

 

It sounds a little bit like my dog when she was a pup. It might not be the same thing though.
She used to be a nightmare to pet when she was young: she was too excited. Like your dog she would bite or flop down, thrash around and made me really not like petting her. (And I am used to whole litters of puppies crawling over me and biting me :lol: )
This stemmed from excitement rather than fear or a dislike to be touched and I don't remember if she did the same thing with strangers.

But she learned to calm down and we could pet her more and more. We just started slow and would pet her a couple of times when she was relaxed. We didn't do the "sit on the dog", but we asked her to lay down when we were relaxing on the couch or told her to lay in her basket.

 It was a struggle! She was a very determined little pup. Back then we did not think she would be the lovely calm dog she is today. I can hug and kiss her all I want and she is happy, but enjoys it quietly. Your pup is still young so with training some calm he might just grow out of it, or some of it at least. 

As far as the holding him goes: I have seen mother dogs do this with overly excited pups, so I don't think it is wrong to do. I believe the energy behind it is important though. If you are upset or agressive I think it won't help one bit (and you might hurt the dog). But just determined and calm it might do the trick.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Flora & Molly said:

We had a dog that was fearful of people (and dogs). She was an adult though. What helped her was teaching her that not all people "wanted something from her".

So we made sure no one approached her on walks, like urge to herd said. We also asked some friends to walk around and not look at her and just go about their business,  both inside the house and outside. First from quite far away and getting closer and closer each session at a pace that the dog found comfortable. This made her more relaxed around people, she just didn't feel comfortable being touched by strange people. Eventually she started to like some of our friends, not all, and felt good about ignoring everyone else.

This is exactly it! Thank you for fleshing that out ~ I really like 'not all people want something from her'. And the process of people getting a little closer over time while ignoring her is perfect ~ thanks again. It's easily about training humans as well as the dog.

Gibbs is like that, particularly with men. If ignored, he does fine. If a man closes in on him, he retreats. I've learned to step between him and any one who does that and say 'no thanks'. 

With women, he is more likely to approach w/tail wagging and sniff fingers happily, accept a scratch on the head sort of thing. Still, he moves away when he's had enough. 

He's basically an introvert, like me. It works for us.

Ruth & Gibbs

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1 hour ago, urge to herd said:

This is exactly it! Thank you for fleshing that out ~ I really like 'not all people want something from her'. And the process of people getting a little closer over time while ignoring her is perfect ~ thanks again. It's easily about training humans as well as the dog.

Gibbs is like that, particularly with men. If ignored, he does fine. If a man closes in on him, he retreats. I've learned to step between him and any one who does that and say 'no thanks'. 

With women, he is more likely to approach w/tail wagging and sniff fingers happily, accept a scratch on the head sort of thing. Still, he moves away when he's had enough. 

He's basically an introvert, like me. It works for us.

 

The trainer I have at class tells me the opposite. She tell me I need to encourage more people to interact with him. The more I socialize him the better he will become. Not forcibly I might add. Most people there have some dog sense. They just don't bend over and try to pet him. They stand at a distance and try to get Tucker to come to them, and they ask me first. There are 7 classes on Tuesday night so there are a lot of dogs and people. It is a big place. They teach agility, dock diving, obedience, etc. Its all gear toward positive reinforcement. As Tucker is a young puppy and there is a lot of things going on there thats new to him, I am sure he is some what scared and has a little anxiety. Hopefully it will get better. There are 5 other dogs in his class. Tucker being the youngest.

This is where I take him for training.....http://www.tntdogcenter.com/home.html

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That can be an appropriate approach with a dog who is shy ~ if the dog slowly becomes more comfortable as the process goes on over a period of time, perfect! A shy dog might turn it's head, might back away a bit.

However, if the dog is stiffening up, the dog is afraid, even terrified. You say that Tucker is trying to bite people, that says fear to me. Going even more slowly, letting the dog make the decision to approach or back away or even leave after a scratch or two, is much safer. 

Please continue with the Tucker updates ~ love reading them.

Ruth & Gibbs

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1 hour ago, urge to herd said:

This is exactly it! Thank you for fleshing that out ~ I really like 'not all people want something from her'. And the process of people getting a little closer over time while ignoring her is perfect ~ thanks again. It's easily about training humans as well as the dog.

 

:) You're welcome. It is definitely about training humans too. Not everyone wants to listen and some people think they are ignoring the dog when they aren't (they keep looking at the dog, which doesn't always help)... I don't understand why (some) humans want all dogs to be the "typical" happy go lucky "everyone is awesome" type. I actually had someone tell me my mother's border collie was boring, because she was calmly laying beneath my chair while I was with a group of friends. I'd say she was the perfect dog, because she was happy to be with us like that. 

All dogs have their own personalities and I think that should be celebrated :) and respected. Although of course rudeness should and can be trained out. 

1 hour ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

The trainer I have at class tells me the opposite. She tell me I need to encourage more people to interact with him. The more I socialize him the better he will become.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the opposite. Interacting for me would be the next step. Having people walk about is socializing too, I'd say. He can watch them and smell them and get comfortable that way. This is what we did because our dog was a rescue and very very fearful. We had to teach her how to play by playing with a ball ourselves and laughing and pretending to have a lot of fun (which was hilarious to do) so she would eventually want to join in. Of course you know your dog better than we do and can assess what he is comfortable with and, also very important, what you are comfortable with. Your trainer might just be right, especially because he is still young. But it is definitely an option to slow things down for him, if you feel that is necessary. I hope you find something that works for you and your pup!

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21 minutes ago, urge to herd said:

However, if the dog is stiffening up, the dog is afraid, even terrified. You say that Tucker is trying to bite people, that says fear to me. Going even more slowly, letting the dog make the decision to approach or back away or even leave after a scratch or two, is much safer. 

Yeah, depending on the dog you can definitely push things too fast for his comfort level.

What the rescue I volunteer with does with extremely fearful dogs that come in is to have a group of people sit in a big circle on the ground or floor with a bunch of tasty treats. No one looks at the dog, no one talks to it. All we do is toss treats into the center of the circle towards the dog. Once the dog becomes more comfortable, we'll toss the treats a little less far from us and maybe have one or 2 people take a short glance in the dog's direction. How long all this takes is entirely up to the dog. You can't force a dog out of fear. If the dog starts shutting down, people start backing away, taking the pressure off until the dog can be taken away. Rinse and repeat as many times as it takes for the dog to be less afraid. Baby step all the way.

 

 

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