Help with my puppy

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

My pup will be 9 weeks old Thursday. I have had him now 3 weeks. I understand that a puppy taken away from his mom and sibling this young has not learned not to bite. This puppy is super super HYPER! There seems to be no way to calm him down. He is a maniac! Or maybe all puppies are this way, but I don't no how to handle him. He bites me and I howl like a puppy and put him in his cage. He then carries on in there growling and chewing on his toys and his bedding until he falls a sleep. When I take him out after he wakes up he is the most loving puppy and calm but it only lasts a minute or 2. He's  just so untrainable all the time because he is so hyper and those baby teeth are always bitting what ever he comes in contact with. He spends s lot of time in the crate for bitting. I also have a 10x10 kennel I keep him in during the day. He runs around in there playing with all his toys, digging holes and just having a blast. Every hour or 2 I go out there and let him out and let him run around the yard and try and find an opportunity to do a minute of training but he is just a hyper maniac all the time. Where do I start with this pup? Hopefully things will get better as he gets older but the bitting has to stop as well as he has to calm down.

[Baderpadordercollie]

First off: IMO, the videos of "Kikopup" on YouTube are a must watch for every new puppy owner. Helped me a LOT. 

I'd say with puppies, putting their food in a bowl is a wasted opportunity. I'm guessing you're feeding kibble? Lay it out on a towel and roll the towel up. Or soak it in water and stuff it in a Kong or other hollow toy. Or put it in a puzzle toy if you have one. Or some such thing. That might help with the crazy puppyness. And you can use meals as rewards for training too. 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

After reading your post a light kind of click on in my head. I have been feeding him 3 half cups of kibble a day. Plus trying to get him to eat treats. It never dawn on me the reason I could hardly get him interested in training with treats was he just wasn't hungry. I would just fill up his bowl and let him eat. Some of the reason for that was the vet said he was under weight for his age,  some of it was my own stupidity on training a pup. Thank you for making me a little more wiser. I have missed a lot of training opportunities!

[Baderpadordercollie]

That's a very common thing; people think their dog "isn't food motivated" because they won't take treats, but really they're just not hungry because they've already had a meal. Then there's my dog who will take any kind of food any time no matter how much she's already eaten, haha! 

Just remember, puppies will be puppies, and their attention spans aren't very long. Keep training fun and short. But most of all, have fun.

[urge to herd]

Try training him while he's in his pen outside. If he sits or lays down, toss him a treat, right through the fence. If he turns his head towards you, toss him a treat.

In waiting for him to calm down, you're not teaching him that he gets a nice little reward/reinforcement for calming himself down.

Try that a few times for the next few days. Particularly since you're cutting back on his rations, he'll be a bit more interested than he was before. You could also work with him the crate inside in the same way.

He might be frustrated at not having much interaction with you. Most dogs, and particularly border collies, need to interact with their humans. He can't, he gets frustrated & bites, chews, etc. He's like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he wants something, when all he has to do is ask politely. So he keeps up with the tantrum, it's kind of a storm of frustration. 

Seize any opportunity he's doing something  calm that you like to reinforce. He's not ready for a formal 'training session' yet. But you can help him get there.

Ruth & Gibbs

[GentleLake]

You might want to look into Emma Parson's Click to Calm protocol. While it was originally designed for aggressive dogs, it can be useful in other contexts such as over-arousal as well.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/click-to-calm-emma-parsons/1126865069

[dallasbc]

One thing I did with mine to help with puppy biting is anytime he'd bite me I'd go, "Uh-uh" and offer him a toy instead. It took a bit of time, but he caught on. Not sure if that would help yours just because mine was with his litter until he was 9 weeks old so he did have that extra time with his littermates, but might be worth a go. Good luck! Your pup is super cute!

With the training, do you try using his toys as motivation/reward instead of treats or food? He seems like he's always willing to play so it might help him be a bit more trainable!

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

1 hour ago, GentleLake said:

You might want to look into Emma Parson's Click to Calm protocol. While it was originally designed for aggressive dogs, it can be useful in other contexts such as over-arousal as well.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/click-to-calm-emma-parsons/1126865069

I did buy the book FIRE UP FRANTIC AND FREAKED OUT. I am working with him now on touch. I don't have a clicker yet, it will be here Monday, but he is doing good with touch. I also got THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH, but its hard for me to stay interested in because I don't care about monkeys, baboons and other things.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

2 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Try training him while he's in his pen outside. If he sits or lays down, toss him a treat, right through the fence. If he turns his head towards you, toss him a treat.

In waiting for him to calm down, you're not teaching him that he gets a nice little reward/reinforcement for calming himself down.

Try that a few times for the next few days. Particularly since you're cutting back on his rations, he'll be a bit more interested than he was before. You could also work with him the crate inside in the same way.

He might be frustrated at not having much interaction with you. Most dogs, and particularly border collies, need to interact with their humans. He can't, he gets frustrated & bites, chews, etc. He's like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he wants something, when all he has to do is ask politely. So he keeps up with the tantrum, it's kind of a storm of frustration. 

Seize any opportunity he's doing something  calm that you like to reinforce. He's not ready for a formal 'training session' yet. But you can help him get there.

Ruth & Gibbs

Thanks Ruth..........Its amazing what a difference a day can make. He's up at six o'clock want to go outside. So I put him out there in his kennel with no breakfast today. I know he's thinking hey wheres my food!  I got things ready so I could train with his treats for a few minutes in the house. I am amazed what a difference a day makes. The pup did good  today, of corse he was hungry and much more interested in training for treats. I am just teaching him touch now and when he lays down I treat him for being calm. He's been calmer than I have ever seen him today.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

42 minutes ago, dallasbc said:

One thing I did with mine to help with puppy biting is anytime he'd bite me I'd go, "Uh-uh" and offer him a toy instead. It took a bit of time, but he caught on. Not sure if that would help yours just because mine was with his litter until he was 9 weeks old so he did have that extra time with his littermates, but might be worth a go. Good luck! Your pup is super cute!

With the training, do you try using his toys as motivation/reward instead of treats or food? He seems like he's always willing to play so it might help him be a bit more trainable!

Yes I have been today because he is being calmer

[Baderpadordercollie]

1 hour ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

 I also got THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH, but its hard for me to stay interested in because I don't care about monkeys, baboons and other things.

I strongly urge you to stick with it. It is an excellent book for anyone wanting to understand their dog's behavior and body language, and how it differs from ours.

[urge to herd]

Re: The Other End of the Leash ~ look for the structure/principles of training, not the specifics. Most, if not all, animals can be trained using the basics: Reinforce what you want. Ignore what you don't want.  Of course, some of what you don't want you need to prevent entirely for safety's sake. Use punishment infrequently, if ever.

I think I saw something about lobsters being trained using the 'basics'?

It is hard sometimes to figure out HOW to reinforce/reward, or HOW to ignore/prevent. It can take a little while to get the specifics for your dog AND yourself clear. The more time you spend w/your pup, observing, noting what works what doesn't work for both of you, the more automatic all this becomes.

I saw a video many years ago by someone training a pup, can't remember if it was a bc or not. The trainer was having a heck of a time figuring out what was rewarding for the pup. Through some happy accident, the trainer discovered that the puppy went wild for an old cookie sheet or something similar. Went nuts with delight to be able to bang it around, bite it, pounce on it. If I hadn't seen the video of it, I wouldn't have believed. So the trainer was able to, in very brief increments, train the pup in some basic 'good manners' behaviors. And gradually substitute food or a ball or something a bit more run of the mill for a reinforcement.

Good luck!

Ruth & Gibbs, who really really likes bits of raw or dried fruit as a training reward.

[D'Elle]

I completely agree with taking every opportunity to train. Remember, training doesn't have to be all done in one formal training session that you schedule into your day. When I have a young dog in my care, I train all day long in little bits and pieces. Want to go out? Sit and give me your attention for 2 or 3 seconds first. Want food? You have to do things for me to get it. Want my attention? Sit nicely first, or lie down. And so on. Every little thing the dog does is rewarded. The consistent attention will also work to calm your puppy down. It sounds to me as if a lot of the hyper-hyper is due to his feeling as though he is left alone in his yard or kennel too much; he needs your attention. Take advantage of that, and make him work for it. Remember, mental stimulation is every bit as important as physical activity for wearing out a puppy. And a tired puppy is a good puppy!

To me, it sounds as if you have a typical border collie puppy. One thing that often is true is the dogs who were the most lively and challenging as puppies turn out to be the best companion dogs when they are older. You just have to channel that energy into the things you want the dog to do. And enjoy this time; it flies by all too fast. :-)

 

 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Thanks urge to heard and D"Elle.........D'Elle when you say Every little thing the dog does is rewarded do you me with treats or praise. I don't always have treats with me but I always tell him what a good boy he is and make a little fuss over him.

[GentleLake]

Praise is great but at this age I make a point to have a pocketful of kibble bits or tiny treats so I can reward with food as well a praise.

Remember too that every time he gets away with something you really don't want him to do, he's learning that he can do it. If he's playing and blows off a recall (or anything else for that matter) and you don't do anything about it he's learning that you really don't mean what you say and he doesn't have to listen when you say it.

They're learning all the time whether you're actually engaged in trying to teach them something at the moment or not.

[D'Elle]

Gentle Lake is right. My approach with a dog of any age, even my own dogs whom I have had with me for years, is that every interaction with them is part of us learning how to live happily with each other. For the dog, that means training.  For me, it means reading and listening to what they are telling me with their bodies and responding appropriately.

Your puppy needs to learn a lot. The most important thing is consistency, consistency, consistency. I cannot stress that enough. Never, ever let him get away with something you don't want him to do. Even though my dogs have been with me for years, I still do not ever let them get away with the wrong behavior. Times I have had a young dog or puppy in the house, I have had my pocket full of treats all the time, and am ready with one when something is done right. Praise is good, but use the treats. Every little thing you do with a puppy is being absorbed by the puppy and he is learning from it. Make sure he's learning what you want him to learn at all times.

 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

4 hours ago, GentleLake said:

Praise is great but at this age I make a point to have a pocketful of kibble bits or tiny treats so I can reward with food as well a praise.

Remember too that every time he gets away with something you really don't want him to do, he's learning that he can do it. If he's playing and blows off a recall (or anything else for that matter) and you don't do anything about it he's learning that you really don't mean what you say and he doenn't have to listen when you say it.

They're learning all the time whether you're actually engaged in trying to teach them something at the moment or not.

What would I do if he blows off a recall. I guess I don't understand what the consequences should be if he doesn't listen to me?

[GentleLake]

You go and get him and bring him back.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Seem like a stupid question now that I have seen the answer! 

[Baderpadordercollie]

2 hours ago, GentleLake said:

You go and get him and bring him back.

Yep. If Brèagha is off leash and I call her and she ignores me, I go to her, leash her up, (not saying a word, being matter-of-fact about it,) and she stays on leash for the rest of the walk. (If she does come I reward her of course.) As a result, she has a very good recall because she loves being off leash, so knowing she won't get to stay off leash if she ignores me is a good incentive. But, I never, EVER call her to me to leash her. If the dog associate recall with being leashed you can bet they will run AWAY from you when you call. 

[brihop]

Just a quick question on this point. If you are in your garden and he ignores a recall but then decides there is no way you are catching me when you approach him, what then? Do you wait for him to calm down then approach? ( will he have forgotten why you were trying to get him in the first place?) Do you distract him with a toy or treat to come to you? and if he still will not come because he is in run around crazy mode? Hope this isn't a silly question.

Brian

[gcv-border]

Have you put a good foundation on your pup before you allow him freedom and expose him to distractions? That is one of the secrets to a good recall. Start inside with no distractions until you have a high recall success. Then gradually increase distractions during training. If he is not returning when called, you will have to keep him on a long line until his recall is better.  AND, you may have progressed too fast in his training (ie. added too many distractions for his level of training), so I would return to the basics. It never hurts to go back to the basics.

And don't forget, to get a recall with distractions usually takes many months. (and sometimes longer).

 

Good Luck.

[GentleLake]

^^This.

If you have a situation where you may need to recall him, then he should be on a line. You don't necessarily have to be holding it, but it should give you the opportunity to be able to step on or grab the line if he tries to outrun you.

Many ppl I know, including myself, whether for puppies or adult rescues will let them drag a long line until they've got a proofed recall. . . . if they're not dragging the line, you just don't call them at all if there's any chance they'll blow you off. Every time he gets away with blowing you off, that's become a self rewarding event and has made your task in teaching him a recall many times harder.

 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

That brings to question at what age should you be teaching him recall and having him drag a line. Tucker is going on 10 weeks old and I have been have him drag a 6 foot line. If I was to pick the line up Tucker flops around like a wounded duck. It took him a few days to get use to a collar but a line maybe different. Am I asking to much to soon to get him to walk with a line or have him on a leash? I have a 30 line but haven't tried it yet. We need a thread as too what age to teach what for BC puppies.

[D'Elle]

In my opinion there is no age too young to start training a recall. If I got an 8 week old puppy it's one of the first things I would teach. That, and a good Wait, and a "watch me" or other attention cue are the foundations of all other training, because without those you don't have a dog to train. My dogs are never let off leash until I know that their recall is solid, and that usually takes more than a year, although mileage will vary. And then, I reinforce it daily on our off-leash walks.

If your puppy is running away it means you don't have a recall on the dog, and he has to be put on a line so that you can reinforce it, as the others have said. The biggest mistake a person can make (and I have certainly been guilty of it) is to rush through the stages of training. It is easy to forget and do it, because these dogs are so smart and eager to learn and fast to catch on. But don't rush. Do the reinforcement of what you want (both preventing the unwanted behavior, ie: with a long line, and rewarding what you do want ie: treat) over and over for months and months until the dog is conditioned to respond the way you want before you give the dog freedom off the lead.

Trust us, it will pay off in the long run.