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TheWoman

Herding his people...

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"When I have a pup chasing after me as I go, nipping at my heels, I ignore it completely. If it gets intense, I'll give a firm 'NO!' and stop moving completely until he stops. Then I'll carry on to my destination. "  was what you said.  this leads me to believe the pup is only corrected when the chasing and biting gets "intense" not right away.  This sends mixed messages.  I didn't say you only trained with positive methods.  I said some do.

Different breeds do tend to have different tendencies.  hounds follow their nose, herding breeds get excited by movement ect.  The correction I believe needs to happen regardless.  I would not allow a herding breed pup chase, bite stock any more than than i would allow it to chase, bite me.  rude is rude, disrespectful is disrespectful.  working only happens after respect for us and our stock.  chasing is not working.

Of course this may not be needed if you have chosen to seek other advice.

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I'm more than a bit mechanistic in my approach to lots of things, dog training is one of them.  Why does the dog do something? I don't really care. If he's doing something I like, I reinforce it, in a variety of ways. 

If he's doing something I don't like,  then I a) Make Him Stop, in a way that is appropriate for that dog & that situation. Then I b) Reinforce the Behavior I want or approve of. 

It's that simple for me. The execution is sometimes challenging, my timing isn't perfect for one thing. Sometimes my early efforts don't have the desired effect, so I pick another approach. And ohhhhh, the consistency thing is sometimes my downfall.

I just Don't Care What the Dog is Thinking or Why He's Thinking It or How His Breed Affects His Behavior when I'm working with a dog. I know that different things work for different dogs. Breed sometimes has an effect in sensitivity or lack thereof, regard for their human's wishes, etc. But really, the training stuff is aimed at the behavior, not what's going in his furry little head. And not what his genetics aim him towards. Being aware of those genetics is helpful, but doesn't really solve any problems or create a 'lesson plan'.

As Denice says, 'rude is rude, disrespectful is disrespectful'. I don't give a rat's behind for WHY the dog is doing it. My job is to change it if I don't like it, for any reason.

Ruth & Gibbs, plus Tillie, Samantha, Shoshone & Buzz ~ each dog has taught me a lot. 

 

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Sorry to add to this heated thread but I'm struggling to find the helpful tips amongst the discussion.

When our puppy did the feet chasing/nipping thing in the garden we all froze and I'd pick him up, I think tired/ over stimulated did play a part because sometimes a little cuddle and he'd calm down, other times he didn't and I popped him to bed. We learnt to recognise that crazed look he'd get just before it started so could head it off.

He's bigger now and doesn't do it at all in the garden, but sometimes if we are out on a walk (maybe every few days), probably when he is tired/over stimulated he will jump at and go to grab lower legs. I give a voice correction and end our walk as quickly as I can but its not always enjoyable trying to get back to the car/home. Other than trying to recognise when he might be reaching that point, is there anything else I should be doing? We had one walk where we had to end it within minutes of starting because he went straight for the legs.

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17 hours ago, GentleLake said:

I'm sure I'm only speaking to the choir here and not to the OP because she says shes gone, but . . .

I'm always dumbfounded by newcomers to border collies who come to these Boards because they [say they] want to hear from people who know the breed, and then are unable to concede that we might know what we're talking about. :rolleyes:

Btw, @TheWoman should you actually come back to read responses, many of us have had as many (or more dogs) in our lifetimes and as many (or more) at one time as you have, and much, even most of that experience with border collies. But you who have only weeks of experience with the breed know more about them. :blink:

My feelings exactly. Some people cannot learn, because they are unable to accept that they do not already know everything there is to know. It's sad, really. But I always figure that the thread can and will be of assistance to others who are not taking that attitude, and it seems that is the case here, so we have not wasted our time.

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9 hours ago, jami74 said:

Sorry to add to this heated thread but I'm struggling to find the helpful tips amongst the discussion.

When our puppy did the feet chasing/nipping thing in the garden we all froze and I'd pick him up, I think tired/ over stimulated did play a part because sometimes a little cuddle and he'd calm down, other times he didn't and I popped him to bed. We learnt to recognise that crazed look he'd get just before it started so could head it off.

He's bigger now and doesn't do it at all in the garden, but sometimes if we are out on a walk (maybe every few days), probably when he is tired/over stimulated he will jump at and go to grab lower legs. I give a voice correction and end our walk as quickly as I can but its not always enjoyable trying to get back to the car/home. Other than trying to recognise when he might be reaching that point, is there anything else I should be doing? We had one walk where we had to end it within minutes of starting because he went straight for the legs.

Sounds like you are on the right track since you are seeing improvement. Don't expect to solve a problem behavior in one day, one week,  or even one month.  Just be patient.

If there was no improvement, you should consider altering your training strategy.

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Whoa, what the heck? I was shocked when I read this thread. I've been trying to figure out the group norms here in order to figure out what I need to do to fit in. But from what I read in this thread, a member isn't welcome here unless they change their views to be 100% the same as the ones you guys hold. 

Nope. Not the forum for me.

Bye guys.

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@starry777, no one asked her to leave or suggested in any way that she wasn't welcome here, just to consider the possibility that her preconceived notions weren't correct or helpful in understanding what was going on with her pup.

If you're reading anything different from this, I suggest you reread the entire thread.

 

 

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This forum is not one where everyone thinks alike, by a long shot. sometimes we have interesting debates, and we do it politely and respectfully for the most part. As 
Gentle Lake said, no one even implied that the OP was not welcome here, and I doubt anyone felt that way in the least.

It is simply frustrating at times when someone comes here to ask advice and then will only argue when the advice is offered. Everyone has the opportunity to learn on a forum like this, but a closed mind cannot learn. The OP could have simply said that she was going to agree to disagree with us; she didn't have to leave in a huff. I personally have come under heavy criticism on this forum.  I hung in there and learned a lot. This place is worth it. But no matter what group or situation a person is in, it comes in handy to have a bit of an open mind to what others are saying.

On the other hand, if a person is over so sensitive, perhaps this is not a good forum for that person. People here tend to be out spoken and blunt. It is one of the things I like about this forum, myself. I hate wasting time with someone who isn't just telling me straight out what they think. Works for me, here, but maybe not for everyone.

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11 hours ago, GentleLake said:

@starry777, no one asked her to leave or suggested in any way that she wasn't welcome here,

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone would come to the conclusion that she was driven away. I don't see that at all. If someone is looking for an echo chamber where everyone's just going to say "good job you're right," then they shouldn't come to a discussion forum and ask for advice. I've never understood why people will ask for different perspectives but become offended when they receive them. 

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On 7/30/2018 at 2:11 PM, TheWoman said:

 

I'll look for a community that better suits this perspective

 

 

In other words, "I'll look for an echo chamber where people will just agree with me despite the fact that I asked for advice because what I'm doing isn't working."

For some reason I am always surprised when people ask for advice from those whom they know to be more experienced than themselves, then get offended and try to trot out their own "credentials" as supporting evidence when they hear anything other than "what you're doing is perfect don't change a thing!" Do you want advice or not?

@starry777  - you don't need to analyze groups norms or try to fit in. It's pretty simple: if you'd like to discuss Border Collies and are capable of hearing differing opinions without leaving in a huff, then welcome! That feels like an awfully harsh way of wording it but honestly I couldn't think of another way to phrase it. This forum is rife with very experienced Border Collie owners who are great at patiently and kindly explaining why they hold certain views. I can't tell you how much I've learned from them, simply by keeping an open mind and listening. 

 @TheWoman all of this applies to you too, of course. No one is trying to run you off or wants you to leave. Everyone wants the best for you and your pup. There are very good reasons people are giving you the advice they are - and I'll throw another voice in saying it's not herding behavior, and yes it's an important distinction. Calmly putting the pup in time out won't make the crate a negative place, it simply reinforces your point. Also, timing and consistency are both crucial. Correct the behavior a second too late and the point is missed, which is probably what I struggle with most with training - it's tough to be that precise! Only correct the behavior once it's escalated and it's even tougher to get the point across. 

It really boils down to this: Did you come here for actual problem solving advice or simply to be pat on the back and told what a good job you're doing (in which case your problem will not resolve and will likely worsen)? Do you want to improve and learn or do you just want hollow platitudes?  If it's the latters, then you are correct that this is not the place for you. Regardless, I wish for the best for you and your pup. 

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19 hours ago, D'Elle said:

 

It is simply frustrating at times when someone comes here to ask advice and then will only argue when the advice is offered. Everyone has the opportunity to learn on a forum like this, but a closed mind cannot learn. The OP could have simply said that she was going to agree to disagree with us; she didn't have to leave in a huff.

This. ^^^^

But, guys, we occasionally get through to an obstinate thinker.  :-)  I remember one thread (IIRC), a couple of years ago, in which someone was complaining about their puppy destroying their belongings and even parts of their house. The collective wisdom advised appropriate use of a crate. The OP said she had owned dogs for over 25 years (although this was her first border collie) and had never had to use a crate, and wasn't going to start now.   A few months later, the OP showed up again with genuine thanks for our advice. Apparently, she finally did take our advice. She had the humility to put aside her ego and try a new tactic since what she was doing did not work. She also had the good graces to come back and thank the posters who had taken time to respond.

We shouldn't pat ourselves on the back too hard ( ;-) -- remember humility), but it does feel good to help a dog and their owner overcome issues.

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I can’t help thinking that if ‘crates’ had been known as portable or travelling ‘kennels’ from the get go then the negative associations wouldn’t be there. We call the crate the kennel and warmly invite our pup to go in there for ‘a rest’ or ‘bedtime’. We also use it for ‘time out’. Sometimes though when he’s monkeying about I put my hand on my hips and can be heard saying ‘do you want to go in your crate young man’ with the same tone that my Mum used to use with me when she’d say  ‘are you asking to go to bed young lady’! Oops :/ 

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4 hours ago, ShellyF said:

Sometimes though when he’s monkeying about I put my hand on my hips and can be heard saying ‘do you want to go in your crate young man’ with the same tone that my Mum used to use with me when she’d say  ‘are you asking to go to bed young lady’! Oops :/ 

Or you start using his full name when he is trouble! Me too, me too!

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My terrier behaves like that :( ! Definitely not just a border collie thing. It’s just rude predatory behavior. But getting the behavior to stop I swear was easier with border collies by redirecting to an appropriate item or a correction then it has been with the terrier who makes a split second decision and it’s made.

 

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