High Volume Breeders

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

In my exuberance to replace my last border collie, I probably made a bad mistake. After purchasing my BC puppy I have found out the the breeder has been on the top 4 spots on the high volume breeder list 4 years in a row. Two of the last 2 years she has been in the number 2 spot in the nation. Boy, have I screwed up or what! Though I love my puppy and he seems healthy, all kind of things have been going though my head now. What got me looking was the puppies mother was all Import bred,  and I wasn't sure if that was good or bad. Then I was looking up the rest of what it said about the parents  

Full Panel Normal for CEA, DM, IGS, MDR1, TNS, NCL/NCL5 

and SN. So all of these pups will be Full Panel 

Normal By Parentage. All pups will be ABCA 

Registered, vet checked, come with all shots and 

wormings up to date per age, heartworm prevention

Seeing this person has registered 75 puppies or more for the last 4 years I don't believe she could be consider a reputable breeder,  and the high volume breeder list only goes through 2016 so she may be registering more the last couple of years. Can you really trust a breeder like this? I mean do they have all their shots and stuff and is what is being said about the parents true? It seems to me this is nothing more than a BC puppy mill with the end goal "money in their pocket" though I could be wrong. How is this allowed though the ABCA

[Journey]

Mill Iron? I've seen some of their pups, they work, some to a very high level. Take the HVB list with a grain of salt. If there's nothing wrong with your pup don't go looking for trouble. Enjoy him and enjoy the journey. Be appreciative they tested even if they produced numerous litters. Sure beats the ones that test and still breed those that shouldn't be bred.

[GentleLake]

Yeah, what's done is done. Just enjoy your pup and don't be looking for problems that may not be there. Take life as it comes.

Just chalk this up as being a learning experience. When we know better, we do better, and the next time you're looking for a pup you'll do much better.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Thanks Journey and GentleLake. I have been enjoying him and I am real happy with him. He does seem like a wonderful pup but what do I know he is the first BC pup I have ever had. He is 52 days old and all ready he is fetching the ball and bringing it back to me and he is sitting now. I work with him all the time with lots of praise and treats. He seems like a smart little guy. So even though he came from a HVB in Michigan he is just what I was looking for,  at this point anyway. 

[starry777]

Like GentleLake said, what's done is done so make the most of what you've got!

[Riika]

I see no reason to lose your trust in a breeder, just because they produce more puppies than you like. Speaking from a goat/cattle/rabbit breeder perspective, just because we make a business out of it and have a lot of breeding stock, doesn't mean we compromise the animals' health and wellbeing. Dogs are animals too, but if anyone turns breeding dogs into a business like other animals, most people suddenly see it as horrible-I don't see it that way at all, as long as they are breeding for the right reasons and take good care of their dogs, both mentally and physically. Small breeders can be just as bad as puppy mills-it's not the size that makes a puppy mill, in my book, but the quality of care the dogs receive-so you just have to check things out and not worry about how many pups they produce. 

 

If you like your puppy and he is healthy, I wouldn't worry one bit about where he came from.  

[GentleLake]

5 hours ago, Riika said:

Dogs are animals too, but if anyone turns breeding dogs into a business like other animals, most people suddenly see it as horrible-I don't see it that way at all, as long as they are breeding for the right reasons and take good care of their dogs, both mentally and physically.

What are the "right" reasons?

If you're talking about show or pet dogs, then I guess as longs as the dogs are well cared for, as you say both mentally and physically -- though I'd also add emotionally, which would include sufficient human interaction -- maybe.

But when you're talking about working border collies, the concern is that the dogs producing all these large numbers of pups can't possibly be being adequately evaluated and proven for their working ability. It's already been well demonstrated that the modified predatory behaviors unique to working border collies is genetically quite fragile and can be lost in just a few generations. And if you don't have that, then for working border collies at least (and I'm with whoever said in another thread that if it's not really a border collie regardless of what it looks like and what people call it) I don't see how anyone can consider these high volume breeders reputable.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

9 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

What are the "right" reasons?

If you're talking about show or pet dogs, then I guess as longs as the dogs are well cared for, as you say both mentally and physically -- though I'd also add emotionally, which would include sufficient human interaction -- maybe.

But when you're talking about working border collies, the concern is that the dogs producing all these large numbers of pups can't possibly be being adequately evaluated and proven for their working ability. It's already been well demonstrated that that modified predatory behaviors unique to working border collies is genetically quite fragile and can be lost in just a few generations. And if you don't have that, then for working border collies at least (and I'm with whoever said in another thread that if it's not really a border collie regardless of what it looks like and what people call it) I don't see how anyone can consider these high volume breeders reputable.

 

Thank you Gentlelake. When I went to pick that puppy up there were at least 50 other pups waiting to be sold, probably double that  . I don't see how you can give adequate time doing what is said here with that many puppies at once.

 "Our puppies are very well socialized, and raised with lots of tender loving care!! We spend a lot of time with our puppies, we handle them right from the day they are born until the time that they leave to go to their new homes". 

Seeing she seem insistent that I take that puppy at 6 weeks old it seem more about money than it did about the welfare of the pups. With all that said I still bought the puppy and happy I did.

What ready started all this is when I whet to the ABCA site and seen they to not recommend HVB and seen her name on the number two spot on the list. Does it make a difference now, No but I will be aware next time.

 

[Riika]

2 hours ago, GentleLake said:

What are the "right" reasons?

If you're talking about show or pet dogs, then I guess as longs as the dogs are well cared for, as you say both mentally and physically -- though I'd also add emotionally, which would include sufficient human interaction -- maybe.

But when you're talking about working border collies, the concern is that the dogs producing all these large numbers of pups can't possibly be being adequately evaluated and proven for their working ability. It's already been well demonstrated that that modified predatory behaviors unique to working border collies is genetically quite fragile and can be lost in just a few generations. And if you don't have that, then for working border collies at least (and I'm with whoever said in another thread that if it's not really a border collie regardless of what it looks like and what people call it) I don't see how anyone can consider these high volume breeders reputable.

 

Working, temperament, and health. I know a several of breeders on the HVB who are very strict in "evaluating" their dogs, in that they work every day and have placed well in cattle dog trials across the country. I'm not saying that I would be such a big breeder or that I personally like it, but I am saying that I see nothing wrong with it if they have good dogs and take good care of them. 

That said, I looked up the breeder in question, and I find her "breeding goals" very suspect, and there are no videos, or even pictures or information of them regarding work. They have some dogs with good bloodlines, but that's it-they appear to breed for pet and color. 

[GentleLake]

1 hour ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

...she seem insistent that I take that puppy at 6 weeks old...

SMH. Selling a pup that young's not even legal in many states anymore.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

56 minutes ago, Riika said:

 

Working, temperament, and health. I know a several of breeders on the HVB who are very strict in "evaluating" their dogs, in that they work every day and have placed well in cattle dog trials across the country. I'm not saying that I would be such a big breeder or that I personally like it, but I am saying that I see nothing wrong with it if they have good dogs and take good care of them. 

That said, I looked up the breeder in question, and I find her "breeding goals" very suspect, and there are no videos, or even pictures or information of them regarding work. They have some dogs with good bloodlines, but that's it-they appear to breed for pet and color. 

I believe this is true. She only has a few pups for sale on her web site but many more that are not even listed yet,  and every color that there is I believe.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

54 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

SMH. Selling a pup that young's not even legal in many states anymore.

Where would one go to find out the legalities of selling puppies in a state? It would be good information to no for the next pup I might buy.

[Riika]

1 hour ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

Where would one go to find out the legalities of selling puppies in a state? It would be good information to no for the next pup I might buy.

Just Google "selling puppy age in 'x' state" or something like that, and you should be able to find it.  In my state, WA, there is no law about the age of puppies before sale. 

[starry777]

Granted I come from other breeds, but I always heard that if you're doing all your health testing and proving your dogs worth by trialing in whatever venue you breed for, that it all costs so much that you don't make it back from breeding and thus can't make a business out of it. Is this also true of Border Collies?

[alligande]

I was going to get my puppy from a well known UK breeder that registers a lot of pups each year, in the end there was health issues with the litter ( a different story but nothing that reflects badly on the ethics of the breeder) so my pup came from a private breeder.  I gave it a lot of thought before I made the initial decision, in the end I decided they were only breeding for working ability, although as a business. In the UK ( and I believe the whole of the EU) there is a limit to 5 the number of liters a bitch can have in a lifetime which can be registered (applies to any register) so this particular breeder keeps pups from each litter to bring on, if they show promise and have serious potential that will keep them as part of their breeding and trial program and then sell them as finished dogs. If the dog doesn't show enough promise to be bred they sell the dog as a trained farm dog, they are well respected trainers and competitors so their trained dogs sell for far more than a pup. They do it right, dogs can be returned and they actively will find suitable pet homes for dogs not cut out to be sheepdogs. It is hard to make a living as a hill farmer so if breeding quality pups is a way to continue farming then I am fine with it. This is a very different to having 50 pups on the ground and breeding for other reasons than working ability. I also had a look at the breeders website and with what I have learned over my years hanging out on these boards I would not consider her as a breeder to get a dog from. 

 

[GentleLake]

13 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

Where would one go to find out the legalities of selling puppies in a state?

Check your state's dog laws. They should be readily available online. You may want to check local statutes as well, because sometimes they're more stringent than state laws.

Or here: https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-laws-concerning-minimum-age-sale-puppies

In some state it'll be illegal to "transfer" a pup younger than a specified age (usually 8 weeks), which applies to the person purchasing a pup as well. Exemptions for pups going to shelters and rescues.

While not all states have any regulations on this (shame on those that don't IMO), the vast majority that do limit transfer to at least 8 weeks; none permit it younger than 7 weeks.

Fortunately more states are enacting similar regs. And it has as much to do with understanding the emotional and behavior repercussions removing pups (and kittens) can have as any physical health concerns.