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Why do so many Border Collies have these problems?


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6 hours ago, starry777 said:

Just to clarify, when I threw out the examples of "OCD" and "aggression" I meant when it's bad enough to be a major problem and isn't merely caused by the dog being in an unsuitable environement. I was thinking dogs that are really disabled by their obsessions or are so aggressive that just owning them puts you in danger of a lawsuit--what if they get a hold of somebody? 

I think the problem is that it can be hard to separate the problem from the environment, although we all know dogs that people have done everything right and the dog still has issues. If you take these boards the questions come from people struggling not those who are getting on well.

One of our foster dogs is a good example of a dog who ended up with an obsession that was completely debilitating for her. She was our foster dog twice, the first time she was a nice young bitch, motion reactive but nothing that could not be managed, the rescue thought they had found her a lovely home and on paper it was. She came back to us two years later when the husband had died, a messed up individual. She could not ride in a car, she attacked the TV, and shadow chased .... we believe she had been entertained with a laser pointer, she went to live with the founder of the rescue as she was impossible to place, we made some progress but it was going to take much more time and effort than we had and most adopters are not willing to take on such a difficult dog. 

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This reminds me of the group I am on that is about the type of camper I have. Someone wrote that they were considering that type of camper but "with all the problems people post about" they were reluctant to purchase one. Well, it seems like a lot of problems because that's what people write about, to get help and advice! So if everything goes on a camping trip but one thing, that's what gets written about - not the many, many things that went perfectly well. No one writes to say that this, that, and the other thing worked as they should but that something was a problem and how do they fix it. And so it seems that people have nothing but problems. 

With these dogs, there are certain things that must be understood about the breed that are due to its unique characteristics - understood, worked with, and problems avoided. But most people don't get a dog really understanding the background of the breed (the "whys") and how to train and manage to avoid problems in their particular circumstances. 

In general, we are talking about workaholics; high energy dogs; noise and motion sensitive dogs; dogs that have a desire to control livestock (or children or shadows or whatever they might fixate on if they are allowed); dogs that are both biddable (which too many people equate with "most intelligent") and independent (which too many people equate with "stupid" or "stubborn"); dogs that may be on the go so much that they put themselves and their bodies or minds at risk; and so on. If you don't recognize these characteristics, or if you try to avoid potential problems incorrectly, you may easily wind up with dogs that can't stop being busy; dogs that react obsessively to noise and motion; dogs that "work" your children, shadows, cats, passersby, etc.; dogs that learn easily but not necessarily learn what you want them to learn; dogs that injure themselves because they overdo it; and so on. 

Many of us don't post much here unless we need advice, and so those with questions and problems seem to be a majority. How about the many who don't say much because they've got it covered? They've been educated and dealt with potential problems proactively, so they've never become problems? 

This forum is a great resource for Border Collie owners, novice and not-so-novice, to share stories, get assistance, and socialize. The problems people face with their dogs just seem more noticeable, that's all. 

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And another funny thing - today I have Celt at the vet for some age-related discomfort issues, and in walked a man with two Salukis. Now, when I was young, I wanted a Saluki (or an Afghan Hound) so much (thankfully, I never got one). His two dogs were shaking with anxiety which is not uncommon for many dogs at the vet office, while Celt was sniffing and chilling. He asked if Celt was a Border Collie, and I said he was. He said that the only dog who had ever bit him was a Border Collie. Well, what do you say back? I said nothing. 

But when I repeated that story to my vet and tech, they said, "How rude!" and the tech proceeded to tell me that this man's dog (or dogs) have been known to bite. Meanwhile, no one in that practice ever worries about one of my Border Collies biting...it just doesn't happen. 

I have been at trials where dozens of working-bred dogs, the vast majority intact and virtually all off-leash, have been racing and romping around, and never seen a dust-up. I guess they are not all "bitey" as that man assumed from his limited exposure to them. ;)

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11 hours ago, starry777 said:

Just to clarify, when I threw out the examples of "OCD" and "aggression" I meant when it's bad enough to be a major problem and isn't merely caused by the dog being in an unsuitable environement.

The problem is that people use these terms inappropriately all the time in contexts where they're not really accurate. It undercuts useful discussion of the real disorders and dramatizes less serious problems in the minds of people who then blow them out of proportion, often to the detriment of the dog.

True CCD (OCD is never the correct term for it when speaking of dogs) and true aggression are far too serious conditions for the terms to be bandied about indiscriminately IMO. It can lead to a lot of misunderstanding, the implications of which can be serious on occasion.

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I agree with Sue R and Gentle Lake in their above posts. It is true that many people who post here do so when they need help, including those of us who have some experience with the breed, as I do. I don't post much just to say how wonderful my dogs are (although I have made a brag or two over the years). A lot of people who post here with problems are newcomers to the breed, and it is great that they find this forum because it is probably the best tool out there for learning about the breed. 

As a trainer, I have often helped other people with problems with their dogs of all breeds. They come to me with the problem behavior that the dog has. Most often, when I ask them a series of pertinent questions, it is revealed that the owner created the problem by handling the dog inappropriately, however well meaning they may have been, and the solution is for them to change their approach. Rarely does the problem truly originate with the dog.

This goes double with border collies. They are a highly specialized breed and it is of great importance to know what their common characteristics are and how best to respond to them. Ignorance of these things leads to problems. I know....I have been one of the ignorant myself and learned a lot from this forum. You will not find experienced border collie people having to deal very frequently with serious issues in their dogs. It can happen, but not often. The problems result from expectations inexperienced people have of the dog without knowing what expectations are reasonable, and how to achieve the results they want and curb effectively the behaviors they don't want. This breed has no more problems than any other breed and fewer than some. But they are not Golden Retrievers; not a breed that almost anyone can have as a pet.

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We've made it our mission to meet as many people and dogs as possible with our puppy. All the people who have had border collies have told us how lucky we are to have one and how we're in for lots of exercise and work :). One beautiful old male seemed more focussed on his ball than playing with the younger mix of dogs bouncing around him, but this wasn't a problem for his owner and another older female 'doesn't really like puppies' so we made sure our puppy didn't get to close to her, other than that we have stroked plenty of friendly border collies, watched younger ones race around frolicking and older ones potter along happily near their owners.

The dogs we do find a bit scary are the smaller breeds who don't seem very focussed on their owners and can look quite threatening, but it would be wrong for me to stereotype based on just a few experiences.

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6 hours ago, alligande said:

One of our foster dogs is a good example of a dog who ended up with an obsession that was completely debilitating for her. She was our foster dog twice, the first time she was a nice young bitch, motion reactive but nothing that could not be managed, the rescue thought they had found her a lovely home and on paper it was. She came back to us two years later when the husband had died, a messed up individual.

This is a perfect example of a dog who clearly exhibited warning signs. When recognize early and managed appropriately the CCD was kept to milder levels, but when allowed to to get out of hand it pretty much destroyed the dog's quality of life.

So very sad for this dog, but a great example of how important early recognition and effective management are.

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18 hours ago, starry777 said:

Just to clarify, when I threw out the examples of "OCD" and "aggression" I meant when it's bad enough to be a major problem and isn't merely caused by the dog being in an unsuitable environement. 

Then in that case I would say that there is no "so many BCs". I think that the majority of BCs labeled "aggressive" or "OCD" don't actually have anything wrong with their brains and can be helped with training. 

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