juliepoudrier Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hi all, I did a search on the topic and didn't find a whole lot, but I know there are some of you out there who use alternative methods so here's a scenario/question for you. Here's the problem: My dog has since about April had a tendency to quit out on the trial field. Only once was this so bad that I had to retire him. The other times I managed to "beg" him through the course. After the incident in April, he was diagnosed with a bad UTI and treated. He did seem perkier for a bit and then went back to quitting on the trial field (but not necessarily at home). I had a recheck this week and once again a significant amount of blood was found in his urine. He is being treated for that now. The vet also X-rayed to see if any stones were present. Well, he didn't see any stones, but we had a nice view of Boy's spine and he has some serious arthritis (spondylosis) in several of his vertebrae, including rather long spurs on the lower side. I have not seen any obvious pain indications from Boy, although in hindsight I can say that when he's on the bed (and, no, I don't want any comments on the appropriateness of allowing a dog on the bed)--a rather tall antique bed--he's very hesitant to get off and lands with a loud "oomph" or grunt (as oppposed to Willow who sails right off). And he is on glucosamine because of very occasional lameness on his front end (not noted since he's been on the supplement). I should also say that Boy has had bloodwork done (normal profile) and a Lyme test but not a full tick panel. So, does anyone have any thoughts as to whether his back could be causing him enough pain to cause him to quit at trials but not necessarily at home (maybe because of much longer hours being crated while travelling and trialling)? Could he have enough pain to affect his performance but me not noticehe's in pain (excpet for his altered behavior at trials)? And if I can't tellfor sure that he's in pain then how do I go about treating his condition? I spoke with someone whose dog had a disc problem (I think) and she said she had similar problems on the trial field when he injurd himself. But she is apparently able to tell when he is sore. She used a chiropractor, acupuncture, and maybe Adequan and had significant improvement. So does anyone have any thoughts as to whether it's worth pursuing chiropractic or acupuncture with a dog who has vague symptoms of not being himself and just happens to show some serious arthritis in an X-ray (I've already received a couple or recommendations for a person who can do this, so I don't need that sort of thing--rather I'm wondering how I would know if I need her services and how I'll know if the dog has actually improved)? By the way, I am also discussing this with my vet, but I thought I'd pick your brains as well because sometimes I think vets don't consider differences between working dogs and pets (as in many working dogs will work through pain, etc.). Thanks for any comments or suggestions. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 I am not in the herding world but I figure it can't hurt to answer. I don't necessarily believe in chiropractors but I did go a couple times....It did nothing for me. But my husband is full blown addicted to going to the chiropractor....and I know many people who believe in it... Now regarding dogs...I know a few people who take their dogs to the chiropractor religiously.....they think it really helps.... So basically, you will probably get 20 different point of views but only you can make the decision......personally it can't hurt to try it out....you can also try a doggie massage therapist. My dogs love the massage therapist especially after a full day of flyball....yes I am a doggie sport geek, please forgive me. Seriously, it can't hurt to try some homeopathic treatments.....I have even thought of taking my dogs to the chiropractor just have not done it yet. Kim Centreville, VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Julie, Unfortunately I have become something of a dog spine expert. I had a weimaraner that because of an injury had servere disc problems..surgery..the whole nine yards and then some. What part of the spine are the spurs located? That will have a lot to do with what signs your dog will show or not show. Limping off and on without a known cause would raise a BIG flag for me. My weim limped on several occasions for no apparent reason..xrays were done. Vet just thought that she had a soft tissure injury. Until the morning she ran towards me and hit the ground sreaming in pain. Also if you suspect that jumping off the bed is a source of discomfort then jumping in and out of crates while traveling could be hurting him. MSM is great for back problems..my dog was on it till she died. Orth surgeon said that with surgery I would get two more years out of her if I was lucky. She lived nine more and just died last year at the ripe old age of 3 months short of 16 years. My best advise it to find the best orth surgeon in your area and go to him. Will be glad to help in any way I can.If you want more info just ask. Oh yeah about the bed thing..I've had a dog in my bed on occasion.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Julie, I have taken several dogs to the Chiropractor and in for acupuncture for many years. The first was a PWC shich appeared to have a stiffel problem (3 vets later he was found to have a broken kneecap). Anyway, the PWC was on accupuncture and some sort of hololistic anti -inflamitory which did wonders for him til he finished his title. I have taken several others in for chiropractic and I do see an improvement when they get things 'fixed'. currently I have a young bitch which injured her back (foolish young dog stunt) and I can tell she works better after treatments. Between treatments I can keep her better with massage. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 I had cats with "gravel" for years - sort of kidney pebbles rather than stones. One 50 mg vitamin C tablet ground into the morning and evening food did a great job. And it can't hurt if that isn't the problem. Just quit if it doesn't make a difference after a month. I'd also try glucosamine for the spine. My chiropractor says to skip the condroitin because the body had to reconvert it to glucosamine anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Julie, I'm so sorry to hear about your dog,hope everything will turn out alright with him. I have an old girl here,her name is Indy and she was diagnosed with degenerative disks when she was about 5 years old. One disk was replaced at Texas A&M but they didn't want to touch the second disk fearing it may leave her paralyzed. On her bad days,she'll hold one leg up and she's also reluctant to do any running or walking for that matter.Half a baby aspirin if she was in great pain but was told not to give or make a habit of giving any type of pain killers. She was on glucosamine for many years,only time when she relly had a hard time was,if she gained even a pound. I didn't look into acupuncture or chirotherapy,in her case,it would not have helped out. Hope your Boy will be alright. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 I have a friend whose bitch was lame off and on for several months. Lots of veterinary treatments were tried, none worked. There was talk about putting to dog on Rymadyl long term, and the side effects scared her enough that she sought alternatives. She ended up taking her to a chiropractor, and after a single adjustment the dog showed marked improvement. I think there were maybe three treatments, and the dog hasn't been lame since. I think chirotherapy can do wonders (it has for me) for some things, but it is not a cure-all. Given the fact that you already have OA in the spine, I think your dog may be at the point where you're going to have to manage pain. Chiropractic may help prevent further damage, but I don't think you can realisitcally hope to reverse OA with any method. They tell me that accupuncture is an excellent part of a pain-management regime, but I don't know enough about it to tell you how it might fit with your dog's situation. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMalazdrewich Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 Julie, So sorry to hear that your Boy is under the weather. As you know, I'm a horse doc and not a small animal vet, but I do have a couple of observations to make. 1. Spondylosis is a common incidental finding in MANY clinically normal dogs. Unless the radiographic abnormalities are pretty spectacular/incontrovertible (and your vet would be the best judge of that), I personally would not jump to the conclusion that this is what's causing Boy to quit on you at trials. It is certainly possible, but I would be more convinced if he were also showing some stiffness or reluctance to work in contexts other than trial competition. 2. The history of recurrent urinary tract infections in parallel with the quitting problem makes me particularly skeptical. I personally would not pursue alternative therapies for the spinal problem until (a) I was satisfied that I knew what was going on with the urinary tract problem, and ( I had resolved it to my satisfaction. I might consider acupuncture if the quitting problem persisted beyond resolution of the urinary tract problem. Before reaching for the needles, though, I would try a course of anti-inflammatory/analgesic drugs (aspirin, Rimadyl, etogesic, what have you) to see whether or not they improve Boy's performance. Note that it would be best to postpone this test until after the urinary tract problem has resolved, as it would cloud your ability to interpret the results. 3. I would be VERY careful about using chiropractic to manage spondylosis. Attempts to manipulate segments of the spine that are partially or completely fused could potentially make matters much worse. My own 15-year-old BC, for example, has advanced spondylosis that was completely asymptomatic until one year ago, when he fractured a small chunk of bone off a fused part of his spinal column during strenuous activity. Since then, he has suffered progressive hind limb weakness, muscle atrophy, muscle spasms, and back pain that make athletic activity impossible. If you choose this route, I would (a) make sure that the chiropractor sees Boy's radiographs before doing ANYTHING, and ( question the chiropractor closely about his/her proposed strategy. I believe that acupuncture would be a safer route, as it would be unlikely to exacerbate the problem. 4. How certain are you and your vet that Boy really has a urinary tract infection (as opposed to another urinary tract problem)? You noted the presence of blood in his urine, but didn't mention additional diagnostics like urinalysis, urine culture, etc. The only reason I ask is because of a weirdo case that I saw as a veterinary student more than 10 years ago. The dog was a middle-aged Lab used for agility whose performance was off (like Boy) and who had been treated for recurrent UTIs that were diagnosed empirically on the basis of blood in the urine. When the problem failed to resolve after several courses of antibiotics, the dog was referred to the university. After a long and expensive diagnostic safari, we discovered that the dog had severe spondylosis with long bone spurs that appeared to be jabbing one of his kidneys during exercise, causing renal hematomas, hemorrhage into the urine, and quite a bit of pain. Please note that this is a very unlikely scenario. I am probably crazy to mention it as it will cause unnecessary worry, but it is a theoretical point of intersection between Boy's two medical problems. Your vet will hate me for this. Please extend my sincere apologies to him/her for being the internet crank that planted such a crazy idea in your head! Best of luck to you and Boy whatever you decide. Cheers from muggy Minnesota, Christie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 What a great post Christie. Also, Julie, The Chiropractor that I took tuck to did mention that the space in his spine that was rubbing would probably fuse in two to three months and she is a board certified vet...(I gather that not all are, some ppl take their dogs to human chiropractors???? Not sure but at any rate...) And the Ortho guy that I had him to was Dr. Bradley...he is in Manasis (if you decide to go that route after checking more on the UTI) I was told by several ppl that he was the finest ortho doc on the east coast.... Anyway, Hope Boy is improving. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Dr. Bradley in Manassas is considered one of the best on the East Coast. I live near Manassas, VA and know many people that have gone to Dr. Bradley and they all say he is a great ortho vet...... Kim Centreville, VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Christie, Thanks for the thoughts. Actually I have had that discussion with my vet (whether it's the UTI or the spine) and he seemed to lean toward the spine, but then we are still discussing things, so who knows? I will definitely mention your scenario to him because it can't hurt to do so (and it may help). I guess my basic question was how do I tell what is causing him to be off? The $64,000 question! After the first incidence and diagnosing the first UTI, I thought we had found the problem. But his performance never really improved back to "normal." I was the one who suggested the follow-up urinalysis once his Lyme test came back negative (because other dogs at the kennel Boy came from have had problems with recurring UTIs). Otherwise, we might not have detected the blood in his urine this time as he once again wasn't showing any obvious symptoms around the house. So, what my vet has mentioned as next steps: to obtain a sterile urine sample directly from his bladder for culture and because of the other dogs I mentioned, he has also suggested the possibility of doing another test on Boy, which apparently is a fairly new test that supposedly can detect early signs of renal failure or disease (this may be a bit garbled because I got this from the vet via a message, not in person. I'm not sure if it would detect other renal problems as well, but we haven't discussed that more thoroughly because the vet is still looking in to it). Have you heard of such a test? Would it detect the kind of thing you were describing with the spondylosis? How did y'all determine that the kidney was hemorrhaging as a result of being "stabbed" by bone spurs? After reading up on spondylosis, I had pretty much decided that it may not be a major factor in his poor performance, but I don't want to rule anything out at this point. Sam, I have talked with Dr. Schwabe about Boy. Kay had recommended her to me back in January when Indy had injured himself pulling out of his collar and had "dropped jaw" (some of you will certainly remember my questions on here about that). The word I have heard about her is that she is board certified but that she is knowledgeable about and willing to use alternative methods like acupuncture, chiropractic, or nutritional supplements. After talking to her, I really don't think she would choose either of the first two treatments methods for Boy. She also mentioned the possible connection between the apparent UTI and his back. Anyway, I'm really just trying to make sure that I can get and keep Boy healthy. He'll never be an open trial dog, but he has been a good first dog for this novice, and I owe him happiness and a pain- and illness-free existence to the best of my ability. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions. I will pursue all of this further with my vet and possibly with Dr. Schwabe. I'm not to the point of taking him to an orthopedic specialist because I'm just not sure that his spine isthe problem, which is why I asked my original question about how I can tell what the real problem is.... And, really, I don't abuse my dogs or anything. I think they have a conspiracy going to make sure I never have any extra money because I'm always spending it at the vet's! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMalazdrewich Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Julie wrote: "I'm not to the point of taking him to an orthopedic specialist because I'm just not sure that his spine isthe problem, which is why I asked my original question about how I can tell what the real problem is...." I'm sorry if I was unclear in my earlier message. Unfortunately, there is no simple and definitive way to determine whether or not spondylosis seen on x-rays is clinically significant, particularly when the picture is complicated by another disease process. Things are reasonably straightforward when dogs are obviously lame, stiff, or exhibit neurological deficits, but much trickier when symptoms are subtle (as in Boy). I guess I was trying to say that the best way (perhaps the only way) to determine whether Boy quits because of his back problem or because of a urinary tract problem is to diagnose, treat, and resolve the urinary tract problem. If the quitting problem resolves along with it, you can be reasonably sure that the spondylosis is not to blame. If the quitting problem persists despite resolution of the urinary tract disease, or if your diagnostic efforts reveal no significant evidence of urinary tract disease, then the spondylosis becomes a much more likely candidate as the underlying cause. The alternative approach, of course, is to just treat the spondylosis (NSAIDs, acupuncture, chiropractic, nutritional supplements, whatever) and assess the clinical response. While this approach has some merit (and you may have to go down this road anyway if/when you determine that urinary tract disease is NOT a contributing factor) it completely ignores the urinary tract problem. Another consideration is that spondylosis is not a life-threatening disease, whereas renal/urinary tract disease certainly can be. If you don't get around to diagnosing/treating Boy's spondylosis for a while, the worst that will happen is that his trialing performance will remain poor. By contrast, the blood in his urine may signal a significant disease process that could progress if diagnosis and treatment is delayed. Overall, I think that you will arrive at a definitive diagnosis (for both problems) faster with Strategy #1, and will probably spend less $ in the long run to boot. Just one woman's opinion! Recently I learned first-hand with my own young bitch that "simple" UTIs often aren't very simple, at all. Because the dog was out at my trainer's farm and I was reluctant to interrupt her training, I treated her empirically with two courses of antibiotics that failed to resolve the problem. After smartening up and getting serious about diagnostics, we finally seem to be making some progress. Today is the final day of a 2-month (!) course of Baytril, and I will repeat her urine culture in about a week to make sure that we have truly killed the bug. I mention this to show that even internal medicine purists are susceptible to the temptations of corner-cutting! While such "cheating" does save time and $ in many cases, in my case it prolonged the course of my dog's infection by at least 1 - 2 months and cost me about $200 in wasted antibiotics, not to mention an unnecessarily long period of anxiety about my dog's welfare. Your vet will be the best judge of specific diagnostic tests for Boy. In both small and large animals, urinary tract structure and function are commonly assessed with the aid of a combination of tests including urinalysis (chemical and microscopic evaluation of the urine and urine sediment); urine culture (the most definitive test for urinary tract infection - requires that urine be drawn directly from the bladder with a needle); blood and urine chemistry; various types of x-rays for kidney/bladder stones, kidney size and shape, bladder wall lesions, etc.; and ultrasound of the kidneys and bladder. On occasion, advanced techniques (e.g. bladder endoscopy, excretory urograms, and even exploratory surgery) are required to arrive at a diagnosis. The minimum database for blood in the urine is usually routine bloodwork (blood counts and serum chemistry), a urinalysis, a urine culture, and abdominal x-rays to look for kidney/bladder stones. Selection of additional diagnostics is guided by the results of those tests. Anway, now I'm rambling. Good luck and keep us posted about Boy's progress. Christie. **Addendum: Julie, without more information I'm not sure what the "new test" your vet mentioned would be. With respect to the Lab I mentioned earlier - ultrasound of one of his kidneys revealed abnormal cystic structures and a combination of needle aspiration and exploratory abdominal surgery confirmed that the cysts were big hematomas immediately adjacent to some nasty spinal bone spurs. Surgery was performed because the owner wanted to have the suspect bone spurs ground down so that they didn't gouge the kidney. At the time surgery was performed, the whole thing seemed pretty weird and none of the vets were at all convinced that the bone spur was really the cause of the problem. They went along with the owner's request mainly because "tincture of time" didn't seem to be helping and they didn't have any better ideas. There was a great deal of heated debate about the ethics of treating the owner at the expense of the patient. But the dog's problem resolved post-operatively! [This message has been edited by CMalazdrewich (edited 07-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rtphokie Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 Julie, My girl Casey has a lot of back problems, including spondylosis. Vets disagree whether spondylosis actually causes pain or not. I think it probably depends on the dog. My Casey has gold bead implants (permanent form of acupuncture) from the top guy in the country, but I don't recall her getting ones specifically for her spondylosis. I take my dogs to a holistic vet in Lynchburg, VA, where they get their chiropractic adjustments and any other holistic evaluations/treatments. The vet is wonderful; her name is Dr. Regina Schwabe. FMI on holistic vets and treatments, check out http://www.altvetmed.com/ There is also a directory on that site to find local holistic vets in your area. My suggestion is to try a couple treatments and see how your dog responds. Laura Slusher Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 Hey Laura, Boy actually has an appointment with Dr. Schwabe next Wednesday. I spoke with her last week and was quite impressed with what she had to say and with her whole approach. She comes to Varina, VA, (east of Richmond), which is where I'll see her (it's about 2 hours from where I work). I'm hoping to get her and my regular vet working together to solve Boy's problems. You are among several others who have had nothing but good things to say about Dr. Schwabe. I'll let everyone know how things go. I really don't think his back is the source of his problems, but I won't rule it out entirely. I am much more concerned with the recurrent (never cured?) apparent UTIs (given his whole history). It was actually Dr. Schwabe I had in mind when I started this thread. I expect that there won't be any chiropractic or acupuncture any time soon, but I am looking forward to her suggestions for a more holistic approach to getting and keeping Boy healthy. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rtphokie Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 Dr Schwabe is *amazing* to me. I'd love to hear if she helps you out or not. Everyone I've referred to her has not been disappointed. I just took two of my girls in to see her monday and she immediately told me where one was hurting just by putting her hands on the dog...first time she's even seen the dog. She's worth the 2.5 hour drive for me! She does help me with their diets too, along with doing the chiro. adjustments. I also like the fact she in involved in flyball and agility with her dogs, so understands the physical stress I put my girls through in training and competing. And to top it all off, she's very reasonably priced! Laura Raleigh, NC [This message has been edited by rtphokie (edited 08-01-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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