Nanda & Nelson Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hello! It's been a while since I've last posted. This forum helped me a lot when I got my first dog (an Aussie Shepherd x Maremma - first thought to be a border collie from the shelter), he had some male-dog agression, which in the end - just ended up being his bad trait that we learned to live with. We fostered street dogs for a year, of which many males, which improved his attitude greatly and interactions, even off leash, are rare. Because he loved having a friend, we got him a buddy.... for which I am looking for some advice. Three weeks ago we got a friend for our very social dog, I decided to get a 'purebred' border collie for a multitude of reasons. Meet June (photos attached), she is a 7 month old border collie from a working line of collies in Scotland, which is also where we got her. She lived on a farm before we got her (so until she was 6 months old). So far, it has been much easier then we thought it would be and she has been amazing. The 'big' issues we are having with her are: Barking at sheep and other dogs: the barking at other dogs is getting less and less as I putting in a lot of effort to go and meet other dogs. This barking is definitely coming from a point of being excited. The barking at sheep may be excitement as well - but how does one stop it? We are currently travelling through Scotland, so there is no avoiding sheep and avoiding them wouldn't solve the issue either. Obviously she is on a leash and absolutely not off the leash. Sled-dogging on the leash: she pulls on the leash. Our other dog did this too, but he was very food motivated and thus we could teach him, with him, getting a harness helped. He eventually grew out of it... but it took YEARS. We got her a harness too but I wonder if it actually just invites her to pull. We just started doing longer hikes with the dogs (our other dog was injured, so her first 2 weeks were spend outside, getting used to us / vanlife and shorter or offleash walks) and it is pretty much impossible to walk with her. Uphill is fine, downhill is downright dangerous. I've tried the method where I stand still and reward her when she lets the leash slack, but as soon as I set 1 step forward, it's sled-dog-mode all over. I've been doing the Kiko Pup method for a couple days, multiple times a day - taking her alone but so far it makes 0 difference, the leash isn't loose once. I know this is going to take time, but still wondering about other tips. Excessive drooling while driving: I got her a travel crate, which helps contain the drool to one spot. Is this just a 'have patience' thing? The drooling comes from anxiety when driving, she doesn't puke. She loves our van when it is not moving and jumps in and out of it all day. When it moves, she would like to run away into the mountains. In general... any tips on training a dog that isn't food motivated Few notes: She is not food motivated. She is 'love-motivated' (high pitch voices and such) She likes toys but isn't super obsessed with them. She loves sheep shit more, should I start using that as treats? (Haha). She doesn't have fulltime acces to toys, but still finds barking/pulling/sheep shit more important then Praise seems to work as the biggest reward for her (our other dog could care less about cuddles, she wants them all x 1000) We are travelling in a campervan (en decent size one), so leash practice in the yard won't happen I put on our other dogs martingale collar (we are currently on Isle of Mull, no pet stores) and will try this Would love to ask the community for help once again. Further... She is amazing. She is super sweet, loves people and kids, likes going for walks, she is amazing inside the van (when its not driving) and gets along with out other dog as well. He is learning her how to play and she likes to give him a 1000 x kisses a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 If you are only going to be around sheep a short time, it may or may not be worth it to you to train her out of the barking, but if it were I, I would do it. I recommend the book "Control Unleashed", and the "Look At That" game. Look At That This is a good one for the dog to know in any case, as it applies to anything to which the dog is reactive. As for pulling on the leash, when the dog pulls, turn around abruptly and go the other direction. This may mean you go two feet in one direction, then three feet in the other, then three feet again and so on. But as soon as the dog is not pulling, he can go forward. Reward with praise when he is not pulling, immediately stop and go the other way when he pulls again. This may take a long time. All you can do is continue to be consistent. There is no magic wand with a dog who wants to pull, but eventually they learn that there's no forward motion unless they walk nicely. I am not a fan of martingale collars, as they can injure the dog's neck if the dog hits the end of the leash and gets jerked to the side. You could try an Easy Walk or other front-attach harness, but it works for some and not for others. The stress drooling is a problem. Normally I would invite you to do a complete desensitization protocol, but if you are currently traveling that isn't possible so you will just have to live with it, although it pains me to think of the dog being stressed out so much of the time. If she is not food motivated but loves praise, consider yourself lucky. You can train all the same things and save money on buying treats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 Send her to me ... I will fix all that but you might not get her back....Yikes she is a cutie. I have a DEEP soft spot for tris. Seriously if you have a friend with sheep who will allow you to get up and personal with them I bet that will fix it. I put quiet dog broke sheep in a small pen, 1/2 the size of a horse stall, walk her around them on a leash. let her figure out what they are and get comfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, D'Elle said: You could try an Easy Walk or other front-attach harness I've been hearing that the Easy Walk harness can cause shoulder problems on dogs who continue to pull. There are other front-attach harnesses designed not to put stress on the shoulders. The Balance harness (https://www.blue-9.com/products/100000000000063-balance-harness-buckle-neck) is one of them and has the advantage of having both a front and back attachment, as well as 2 versions for better fit. There are others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted July 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 We actually have a Ruffwear front range harness, which also allows the leash to be clipped up the front. I took her on a hike with the martingale anf it was 100% better, she didn't pull at all and the leash was loose, she got.lots of praise. I think we will use it and train walking her on the harness. I think you are right about the sheep as it was the same with other dogs. Once she met them all was good. We have adjusted our travelling to her needs, we don't travel everyday and no more then 1.5 hours - we would never let her be stressed for more then that. Last week we rented accomodations to give her a break and we are teaching her the van means funtimes. She really likes her travel crate. Since 2 days she jumps into it as well, with wagging tale and loves to curl up next to me while I am working. There is some improvement for sure... though this one pains me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 8:22 PM, D'Elle said: If you are only going to be around sheep a short time, it may or may not be worth it to you to train her out of the barking, but if it were I, I would do it. I recommend the book "Control Unleashed", and the "Look At That" game. Look At That This is a good one for the dog to know in any case, as it applies to anything to which the dog is reactive. As for pulling on the leash, when the dog pulls, turn around abruptly and go the other direction. This may mean you go two feet in one direction, then three feet in the other, then three feet again and so on. But as soon as the dog is not pulling, he can go forward. Reward with praise when he is not pulling, immediately stop and go the other way when he pulls again. This may take a long time. All you can do is continue to be consistent. There is no magic wand with a dog who wants to pull, but eventually they learn that there's no forward motion unless they walk nicely. I am not a fan of martingale collars, as they can injure the dog's neck if the dog hits the end of the leash and gets jerked to the side. You could try an Easy Walk or other front-attach harness, but it works for some and not for others. The stress drooling is a problem. Normally I would invite you to do a complete desensitization protocol, but if you are currently traveling that isn't possible so you will just have to live with it, although it pains me to think of the dog being stressed out so much of the time. If she is not food motivated but loves praise, consider yourself lucky. You can train all the same things and save money on buying treats. Hi D'elle, we are going to be in one location for about 2 weeks at my parents house. This would be an opportunity for the desensitisation. Do you have any tips on this? Her behaviour has improved. She gets excited about sheep but no more barking and she snaps out of it quickly. The pulling has not improved at all, though I train everyday. She seems to just pull like a sleddog as soon as we go on a real walk. She now loves the camper. She will go in and out of it all day, is happy and really, really likes it. Until, we start the engine though even then she still wants to jump in her crate and be inside. It is anxiety, not sickness, she doesn't puke, just buckets of drool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Nanda & Nelson said: The pulling has not improved at all, though I train everyday. She seems to just pull like a sleddog as soon as we go on a real walk. Are you stopping and turning around to head in a different direction each and every time she does this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeskyDogs Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Our Easy Walk harness has made all the difference in the world for training our bcs to walk politely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 18 hours ago, D'Elle said: Are you stopping and turning around to head in a different direction each and every time she does this? I do that during our training sessions, but we have another dog and he must walk 2 hours a day to get tired. And thus she has to come. We mainly walk through grazing fields and I won't let her off leash there so onleash is the only option. I know this is a problem, because I am allowing her to pull. She has a Ruffwear harness with a front clip, but it doesn't make a difference. I looked in at least 5 different stores here for an Easy Walk harness (this is what we used with our other dog and worked well, he now is perfect on the leash, no matter what he wears). I did find a head halter, though I know not everyone likes it here, she walks very nicely with it and doesn't seem to bother her. I am using it (only since 4 days) because if I need a way of excersizing / walking her... It is not my intention to use this as a training method or to keep using it at all. I just don't want to allow her to pull in the harness and think that that is OK, if you understand what I mean. She knows the command 'Look' and when we walk and I say it, she looks at me and waits, but then pulls again after. I found a treat she likes a couple days ago, because toys get her too excited almost to train with it. Her recall is great, if there is a toy around to reward her with. We probably just need to do much more and longer 'heel' / loose leash training sessions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 M. Shirley Chong's method for teaching loose leash walking is time consuming but she claims to have some pretty amazing results: http://shirleychong.com/keepers/LLW/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 If you allow her to pull some of the time you are undoing all the training effort you are putting into this. I would walk the other dog alone and then only take her out when I am prepared to train. Remember that mental stimulation is as tiring as is physical. If you continue as you have been she is unlikely to learn not to pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 38 minutes ago, D'Elle said: If you allow her to pull some of the time you are undoing all the training effort you are putting into this. Yes. Remember the concept of intermittent rewards being more powerful than consistent, predictable ones? If you let her pull some of the time, then it's its own reward, achieved intermittently. It's a terribly frustrating thing to deal with in this context because, as we all know, sometimes we just have to get to where we're going and don't want to have to be in training mode every second. But we have to or it just prolongs the process and makes it that much harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 On 8/17/2018 at 4:29 PM, D'Elle said: If you allow her to pull some of the time you are undoing all the training effort you are putting into this. I would walk the other dog alone and then only take her out when I am prepared to train. Remember that mental stimulation is as tiring as is physical. If you continue as you have been she is unlikely to learn not to pull. Hi D'Elle, this is so true and I know this too and after writing about it here as well I realised this even more. And thus I have told my partner that, until she walks properly on the leash, I do all the walks. This will allow me to enforce consistent loose leash walking (the dogs are kinda 'mine', by choice. He loves them, walks them, but I initiated them and am responsible for training). So, for the past 3 days, I have done multiple long hikes with both dogs but have not allowed her to pull at all. Pull = stop, this meant one of our hikes was 4,5 hours haha. I must have done this for about 8 hours if not more in the past couple days, she gets it though and also knows the command 'heel'. The big difference is she is not being allowed to pull ever right now. She doesn't do it 100% of the time yet, but she now just goes to the end of the leash and isn't sled dogging anymore. When she goes to the end of the leash, I stop and she knows she has to come back. So, we are going to keep doing this and if she understands this much in a couple days... I am sure progress will be even better a month from now. Also, I put her on a different harness. I think she associated the harness we had with pulling. Now... if there was also a magic trick for the drooling then I'd be so happy. She is such a happy, quick learner. She LOVES being in the camper, it is just the driving part she doesn't enjoy. The amount of drool is really no fun. We will be going home in a week for 2 weeks or so, and I home I can do some desensitization then (have a week to learn about it). I am also curious to see how she would do with other vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 18, 2018 Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Nanda & Nelson said: ...she gets it though and also knows the command 'heel'... Are you also rewarding or otherwise reinforcing her when she's in the correct position? This can also be a tremendous help. 1 hour ago, Nanda & Nelson said: Now... if there was also a magic trick for the drooling then I'd be so happy. From what you describe in the earlier post, I really wonder if it's not nervousness but an actual physical reaction such as nausea. I know you said you don't think it's sickness, but it might be worth talking to the vet about trying an anti-nausea med to test that hypothesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 58 minutes ago, GentleLake said: Are you also rewarding or otherwise reinforcing her when she's in the correct position? This can also be a tremendous help. From what you describe in the earlier post, I really wonder if it's not nervousness but an actual physical reaction such as nausea. I know you said you don't think it's sickness, but it might be worth talking to the vet about trying an anti-nausea med to test that hypothesis. Ok thank you. I will call my vet on Monday and discuss with them. When she heels she gets praise or a treat and every now and then we stop for a full cuddle. So it is a loooot of interaction during our hikes right now. She isn't much food motivated but really loves praise and cuddles, it is a higher reward for her then food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jami74 Posted August 18, 2018 Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 @Nanda & Nelson I'm following your thread with interest because my boy likes to pull like a sled dog. Except when he's bouncing and trying to grab the lead out of my hand, but I think we're mostly past that stage. If I stop he just carries on leading into the harness. He'll sit if I ask him to but as soon as I release him from a sit he's right back into it. Changing direction doesn't help either, he just speeds past me to get back into his leaning position. I've actually stopped lead walking for the moment, I drive to places where we can walk free and if I need to put him on the lead we either stay still or I carry him (he's small). Today I started M. Shirley Chong's method as I've seen it recommended a few times here. It feels like it's going to be a slow journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted August 18, 2018 Report Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, jami74 said: @Nanda & Nelson I'm following your thread with interest because my boy likes to pull like a sled dog. Except when he's bouncing and trying to grab the lead out of my hand, but I think we're mostly past that stage. If I stop he just carries on leading into the harness. He'll sit if I ask him to but as soon as I release him from a sit he's right back into it. Changing direction doesn't help either, he just speeds past me to get back into his leaning position. I've actually stopped lead walking for the moment, I drive to places where we can walk free and if I need to put him on the lead we either stay still or I carry him (he's small). Today I started M. Shirley Chong's method as I've seen it recommended a few times here. It feels like it's going to be a slow journey. Remember that this takes time. Sometimes it takes a long time. Some dogs get it and it becomes their behavior in a few weeks, some take months, some take even longer. Just be 100% consistent for however long it takes! Think of it this was: this amount of time, whatever it is, will go by anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog who walks nicely on a leash or you will have a dog who never walks nicely on a leash. It's clear which you would prefer. Sometimes it just takes persistence, You have to outlast the dog. Stopping your walking on the leash is not the best way to handle this because ultimately you need to have a dog with leash manners. I suggest continuing with the leash and simply do the turning around and going the other way as many times as you need to. Hundreds of times. thousands of times, whatever. Eventually the dog gives up on trying to pull. I have done this with a dog who didn't want to learn leash manners, and all we did for a half hour every day is go one way for 2 seconds, then the other was for 2 seconds, then back again. This gets boring for the dog, and at some point they decide to try something else. Be sure to reward the dog if he takes even a few steps on loose lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 11 hours ago, D'Elle said: Remember that this takes time. Sometimes it takes a long time. Some dogs get it and it becomes their behavior in a few weeks, some take months, some take even longer. Just be 100% consistent for however long it takes! Think of it this was: this amount of time, whatever it is, will go by anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog who walks nicely on a leash or you will have a dog who never walks nicely on a leash. It's clear which you would prefer. Sometimes it just takes persistence, You have to outlast the dog. Stopping your walking on the leash is not the best way to handle this because ultimately you need to have a dog with leash manners. I suggest continuing with the leash and simply do the turning around and going the other way as many times as you need to. Hundreds of times. thousands of times, whatever. Eventually the dog gives up on trying to pull. I have done this with a dog who didn't want to learn leash manners, and all we did for a half hour every day is go one way for 2 seconds, then the other was for 2 seconds, then back again. This gets boring for the dog, and at some point they decide to try something else. Be sure to reward the dog if he takes even a few steps on loose lead. I think you are right: consistency is key. Also, for me, putting on a different harnass was important. As I allowed her to pull on her Ruffwear harness, it was associated with it somehow. I am also not allowing anyone else to walk her right now as that way she doesnt get to chance to pull with someone else. Different harness now and she is absolutely not allowed to pull ever, meaning we stop often. I think I have talked more to the dog then to my boyfriend the past couple days haha and while spending a lot of time we haven't covered much distance. After doing this for only 3 days (and doing it for hours and hours a day), the big thing I am starting to notice is, is that she now checks in on me during the walk instead of booking it forward. We've got a long way to go but I am happy to see change, as for 2 months there was none. She also does not bark at sheep or other dogs anymore. Gets excited, but I can control her now, we can walk past other dogs and through a field of sheep quietly and well behaved. It is a huge improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jami74 Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 11 hours ago, D'Elle said: Think of it this was: this amount of time, whatever it is, will go by anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog who walks nicely on a leash or you will have a dog who never walks nicely on a leash. Thanks, that's a nice way to think about it. It's a little frustrating because everyday I see all sorts of dogs, including grown-up border collies trotting along nicely next to their owners. I knew puppies weren't born knowing the right way but I imagined that ours would do the same. Once he can do it nicely it'll get him an extra walk a day as one of my teenagers will take him out while I'm at work. 11 hours ago, D'Elle said: I have done this with a dog who didn't want to learn leash manners, and all we did for a half hour every day is go one way for 2 seconds, then the other was for 2 seconds, then back again. This gets boring for the dog, and at some point they decide to try something else. Be sure to reward the dog if he takes even a few steps on loose lead. I know I must be patient, but can you remember how long it took? Are we talking weeks? Months? Years? 3 minutes ago, Nanda & Nelson said: Also, for me, putting on a different harnass was important. As I allowed her to pull on her Ruffwear harness, it was associated with it somehow. I am also not allowing anyone else to walk her right now as that way she doesnt get to chance to pull with someone else. After doing this for only 3 days (and doing it for hours and hours a day), the big thing I am starting to notice is, is that she now checks in on me during the walk instead of booking it forward. Ooh great that you're seeing progress! We've done a similar thing to you in switching. Our boy wears the harness when we are out but for practicing our nice leash walking (still only at home) we use the collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 5 hours ago, jami74 said: ...one of my teenagers will take him out while I'm at work. Be prepared for the possibility that your teenager(s) may have to train the dog to walk nicely for them as well. Dogs aren't always, or even often, very good generalists, so learning not to pull on the leash while you're walking him won't necessarily mean he won't pull when someone else is. And if he pulls and gets away with it, he'll learn that he can pull when other people are walking him. So once he's better at loose leash walking and before you hand him over to the teenager(s) to walk by themselves, involve the kids in the training and show them what you do so they know how to handle it. 5 hours ago, jami74 said: I know I must be patient, but can you remember how long it took? Are we talking weeks? Months? Years? Whatever the answer is with her dog, understand that it may be different for yours. Probably better not to compare and just accept that it will take as long as it will take. Remember that in your case, you're undoing previously self-rewarded pulling, so for that reason alone it may take longer than if you'd buckled down and been consistent from the start. (Not a criticism. We've probably all been there. This is one of the most challenging things to teach IMO.) Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 22 hours ago, GentleLake said: wonder if it's not nervousness but an actual physical reaction such as nausea. I know you said you don't think it's sickness, but it might be worth talking to the vet about trying an anti-nausea med to test that hypothesis. Oh and another reason I think it ia anxiety; she stargs drooling before we go. As soon as she realizes we will be travelling, drool comes out. Even if she is outside and not in the car yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 That's still not proof that it's not nausea. If she gets sick to her stomach she could be anticipating it and start drooling from nervousness. There's really no way to know for sure unless you try an anti-nausea med to see if it makes a difference. And even that could take a little while till she stops anticipating it. Or you could teach her how to talk so she can tell you herself. LOL If it's simply anxiety and it's that bad, I'd consider an anti-anxiety med if it were my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jami74 Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Nanda & Nelson said: Oh and another reason I think it ia anxiety; she stargs drooling before we go. As soon as she realizes we will be travelling, drool comes out. Even if she is outside and not in the car yet... There are medications (eg Piriton/chlorphenamine) that in humans would address all issues (used for kids travel sickness, it's an antihistamine so would help dry up excess secretions and it also causes a little bit of drowsiness so could be helpful in anxiety). I am definitely not suggesting you give this to your dog, I don't know if it is safe for dogs or what the dosage would be but a discussion with a vet might find a dog specific product like that which would help. 4 hours ago, GentleLake said: Be prepared for the possibility that your teenager(s) may have to train the dog to walk nicely for them as well. Dogs aren't always, or even often, very good generalists, so learning not to pull on the leash while you're walking him won't necessarily mean he won't pull when someone else is. And if he pulls and gets away with it, he'll learn that he can pull when other people are walking him. So once he's better at loose leash walking and before you hand him over to the teenager(s) to walk by themselves, involve the kids in the training and show them what you do so they know how to handle it. Yes absolutely, I was thinking this might be the case. I have to learn myself first and hopefully once me and the dog have figured it out we'll be able to share it with others and hopefully it'll be a quicker process for the subsequent humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 10 hours ago, jami74 said: know I must be patient, but can you remember how long it took? Are we talking weeks? Months? Years? I answered this in that same post. It takes how long it takes. Not trying to be flippant, really. But it is better not to think about how long it is taking at all. Just do it every single day consistently until it is fully ingrained in the dog. Have patience. Have persistence. Think of all the time you are spending with the dog not as something you want to rush and hurry up and get it over with, but as bonding and learning time with your companion. The dogs I have trained have all taught me more than I have taught them. If you are constantly thinking about how long it is taking you will miss the opportunity to learn from your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanda & Nelson Posted August 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2018 We travelles for 8+ the other day aa we had to go back home for a couple weeks. I decided to not put her in the crate but she was allowed to sit with our other dog. She didn't drool at all... back home, she has now been in two different vehicles and also did not drool. So odd! We are seeing the vet next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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