Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 I have had quite a few litters of pups, I think about five or six. I know some of you have brought myriads of lambs and calves into the world and your fair share of pups, foals, piglets, chicks.... Sometime in the next few days (probably today), I'll be whelping my 3 year old russell bitch Sasha (her first litter). I'll be going to her house, (she lives with my buddies Travis and Chuck). So, I won't have my vet nearby. Over the years, I have started to get more involved with my bitches' whelping. I get right in and support the contractions, adjust feet and so on when pups aren't moving through the birth canal in a timely fashion. I go with the contractions carefully, try to hold both front feet or both back feet so as not to hurt the pup. First, I wonder what is a "timely fashion for a pup in the birth canal?" I have operated on the assumption that if the sac is still intact then I have a good 15 minutes. If the sac is broken my sense is that I need to hustle. Am I right? I have never had to push a pup back in to free up a foot that is caught or to bring a head down although I know it is done. As I understand it, this is done with the contractions as well, but in reverese of bringin them out: as the contraction eases one pushes the pup back and works around with a finger or two to bring the head or foot down. Also, I'm wondering if folks who have had to do some obstetrics, feel it's necessary to give an oxytocin shot after the pups are all delivered with their placentas. And, if one has to fiddle around in there, should the bitch get antibiotics as a matter of course? Any discussion of the above would be much appreciated. Or for that matter any tips on birthin' babies are more than welcome. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 18, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hmmm.... hope this isn't an inappropriate post. Maybe you all don't run into this much with bigger breeds or are worried about liability? Thanks to Pam and Bill for the emails, your advice and support is much appreciated. The empty feeling in the pit of my stomach before a whelping is reason #2,500 for NOT breeding Jack Russells! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Well, Margaret, have you read Don McCaig's "Emminent Dogs, Dangerous Men"? I think it's in that book he details the story of the pregnant bitch moving sheep from one village to another and whelping on the way - then going back to pick up the pups when her job is done... Admittedly, I don't do that, but I will work my bitches (in an open field with space to move about) up until a week or so before they are due...and I'll get them right back out while they are heavy with milk - they simply would NOT forgive me if I didn't... Now, while the story above may be apocryphal - I think it is that kind of "hardiness" that has made this breed what it is - and why many of us haven't any birthing issues the few times we may breed - also keep in mind that many of us aren't "profesional breeders" and may only breed 6-8 litters in our entire life, so don't have the "expereince" some of the "other" breeders do... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 18, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Ack! Do I sound like a professional breeder? God Forbid! Just so you don't think I'm flooding the world with pups: the biggest litter I have had was six, two weren't litters at all (singletons in both). One had four and the other had two. Sasha's litter marks the end of my breeding career and she's not really mine anymore (we had her x-rayed and saw 4 little skeletons). Is 18 puppies in eleven years of breeding a lot? I always thought (wrongly?) I showed a lot of restraint compared to some other folks. This was especially true since I never had enough puppies for the calls I got and haven't had any trouble finding excellent homes. It never occured to me that six litters was a lot but I guess if I had 9 or 11 in each litter it would be a different story. Thanks for the reply Bill, even though it was a bit of a wake up call. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Margaret - Years ago, when I was "in" the world of GSD and coon hounds - many of the "breeders" had puppies nearly all year round from one bitch or the other - and some Border Collie people I know are the same way - you can call them practically anytime and they have some pups from one breeding or the other... Those are the folks I consider "professional breeders" - and unfortunately they are in any breed... I just think that some working breeders - if not most - breed to bring along a dog they want - so tend not to have as many litters...it takes the bitch out of circulation for at least awhile, and the time I'm spending with pups I could be spending on working my poor underworked dogs... So anyway, the point is that many of us don't have a ton of expereince with litters... Several of the ads about working dogs state "occasional pups or started dogs"...for just that reason. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 07-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 18, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Bill, Yes, after your reply, I got to thinking about those litters I bred. Each one was for me. I always kept a pup or sold one with the agreement that I would get one back. When my kids were real little and I lived in a tiny house in town, I had to resort to breeder's agreements, but the main point was always the same: to breed a nice little working terrier for myself. Thanks for taking the time, Bill! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Well sometimes the human race surprises me...with its courage and generosity. For those of us who have gotten a wee bit jaded in our dealings with the veterinary profession: here is a corrective. http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/reproduction.htm All four of the whelping articles are highly informative and intelligible. Kudos to Dr. Hinkle for sharing this information with concerned breeders! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 07-21-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Thanks for the links, Margaret. How's your little mama coming along? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 She's doing great! She didn't get what was going on with the first one. But by the second she was pushing like a trooper. Three little toughnuts already fighting over the optimum teat. Two girls and a boy. The male was born on his side, butt first. That's a new one for me! WHEW! AND WOOHOO! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Contrats on your litter--and as much as I need a 'rat dog' no way--bad past history eith the little terrors! Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Hey congratulations on the puppies. I love Jacks. If I didn't have border collies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Ha! Ha! Pam you are a smart lady, not many people know that rats are less nuisance than russells. I got a bad history with lil terrors too. That's why I swear on a stack of bibles that the many gray hairs I got from this litter will be my last. From russells at least... Thanks Shawna, I think you are better off with working border collies. JRTCA terriers are by and large wonderful lil beasties but they are crazy making and they are shown in conformation, which takes its inevitable toll on the breeds functionality. Oh I wanted to point out on those articles from Hilltop vet that I disagree with a couple of things in them. One is that pups should be handled minimally before they are 3-4 weeks old. I like to handle them a fair bit. I think it helps them bond with humans in a more healthy way. There was something else but I can't remember it right now... Also a couple of those articles start out with very basic information about whelping that most folks already know. The more useful information is further down the page. The information I was looking for was in the first and fourth article if I recollect right. Oh I know what the other thing was that I disagreed with. They say that you should breed a bitch every two days as long as she stands. It was either in the whelping articles or the article about modern management. I think that some bitches will stand a long time but are usually fertile as soon as they will stand. So, I start the first day they stand and go every other day for a total of three breedings. That way you get a tight due date, with pups who are all close enough to mature. Margaret ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 >I think that some bitches will stand a long time but are usually fertile as soon as they will stand. So, I start the first day they stand and go every other day for a total of three breedings. That way you get a tight due date, with pups who are all close enough to mature.< Actually Maragret, pregnancy is hormone driven system and the due date has nothing to do with when the dog was bred. No matter when the sperm is introduced, the window of opportunity for fertilization of the eggs is only a few days (like three or four). The system is such that all fertilized eggs are at a fairly uniform size when implantation occurs. Differences in sizes of pups are more due to placental factors than anything else. A lot of vets apparently don't even know this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Wow! That's interesting. So the pups' readiness is not a trigger? I just assumed that it took pups a given number of days from conception to develop and that their was some relationship between development and labor. On the Hilltop site, in the breeders' management section, they discuss progesterone tests. The also talk about estimating the due date on the basis of what, is it leutenizing hormone? Denise, what is the best way to calculate due date based on hormonal determination of labor? Also, are you familiar with the discussion of deciding if labor is problematic based on the bitch's peak fertility? I'm going back to the Hilltop articles so if you don't want to answer in specific could you just let me know if the answer to my questions is in one of those articles? I would really like to write and article on this for the JRTCA. I think this whole issue is really important for breeders, particularly in small breeds where the rate of cesearean seems to me to be too high. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Margaret, I'll answer one question right now. The best, easiest, and least expensive way I've found to determine the whelping date is to obtain vaginal smears and do cytology to determine the first day of diestrus. The pups will be born about 57 days after that day. I do it here at my house because I have the supplies and a scope but any vet should be able to do this and it shouldn't cost as much as some of these other tests. It's been a couple of years since I've had any pups though so I don't know what's on the market right now that might be better. I've bred six litters and two of them were singleton litters (Mick and Kate). Because the need for C-section is greatly increased in singleton litters (they both ended up being delivered that way), pinpointing the exact due date was important. Using vaginal cytology to determine the first day of diestrus correlated with early ultrasound perfectly to determine the exact due date. [This message has been edited by C Denise Wall (edited 07-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Margaret, I agree with you on the handling of pups. Problem is how much is too much how much is too little. A house full of little children may overhandle the pups and over stress them. Whereas too little handling can cause problems with the dogs being less able to handle strell later in life. I work with a beardie which falls into the later catagory and I am all for handling!!! Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Thanks Denise! It is wonderful of you to share that information. May I have more please ma'am? (in my best wheedling voice) Pam, my poor children! Their mom is a breeder nazi. They aren't allowed to pick the pups up much until they are close to six weeks old ( a little sitting down holding them after their eyes open) and then they are closely supervised. By that time the puppies are chewing on them with those needle sharp teeth and they don't want to pick them up. LOL! One cute story about a breakdown in my rules: When my daughter Chloe was about 2 years old, I was sitting in the den yakking on the phone about how good she was with the puppy (one of my singletons) bragging her up etc. I look up and in she toddles carrying my five week old pup. He was bottom up and face forward and as relaxed and calm as can be... On the darker side, my hubby is out of town and couldn't keep the kids occupied like he usually does last night when I was doing the whelping. They knew I couldn't get one pup going. It's just no fun to be trying to explain "look on the bright side" as I'm working over a little corpse. Children's natural reverence for life is wonderful, but sometimes a burden... I don't imagine I'm telling the farmers here anything... ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 07-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Margaret, Vaginal cytology can also be used as an indicator for preovulation. Luteinizing hormone (LH) will peak one to three days, with an average of two days, before ovulation. Therefore LH surge will occur about 65 days before gestation ends. Using this test, you can identify the best time to breed as well as calculate a whelping date. However, I have known bitches to have delayed ovulation due to stress of travel, etc. Progesterone increases and decreases can also be used to determine preovulation and termination of pregnancy, respectively. As for the end of pregnancy, you are right in some respects, the puppies themselves are thought to stimulate labor. Stress produced from reduction of placental supply, presumably because the puppies are outgrowing it, stimulates the puppies to secrete more cortisol, which may trigger labor. Cortisol increases from both mother and pups may stimulate release of prostaglandin F2alpha from fetoplacental tissues, causing the progesterone level to drop. The progesterone drop is reflected in the decrease in temp from about 101 to 99 degrees F seen 12-24 hours before labor begins. Single puppy, or very small litters, can be difficult because they may not stimulate labor due to the corresponding low concentrations of hormones associated with the triggering of labor. On the other hand, larger litters may stimulate labor slightly early for the same reason. This is not however related to when the bitch was bred other than the obvious - optimal fertility time, thus greater chance for more eggs to be fertilized. So the projected whelping date remains about 65 days after LH surge, 63 days after ovulation, or 57 days after the first day of diestrus. There can be pretty wide variations in apparent gestation lengths when determined from the first breeding rather than using the associated hormone changes to determine whelping dates. Canine sperm is known to be viable for 4-6 days and possibly as many as ten days after insemination. A bitch can for whatever reason allow herself to be bred and still conceive even though the optimal time wouldn't occur for many days because of the increased viability of canine sperm over other animals. In many ways, dogs are set up to be very efficient breeders. [This message has been edited by C Denise Wall (edited 07-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 You've achieved a rare feat Denise! I'm speechless. I'm going to process this and then I want to see if I can describe a hypothetical breeding based on all this lovely information you have shared. Your punishment for being so dam (get it?) knowledgeable is a big hug from yours truly! Thanks ever so much. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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