starry777 Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 I have not, as of yet, gotten a Border Collie but for like 15 years I've been on the outside of the BC community looking in. I'm trying to stop hanging on the fringes and get more actively involved. I'm trying to understand the dogs and their people better. I can't get that from just Youtube and books and reading old forum conversations. I have to jump in and ask questions. So, I thought I'd ask about something I've noticed. Am I correct in my impression that BC owners tend to feel a lot of pressure to be an absolutely perfect dog owner and that if they make the slightest mistake, they feel like a horrible failure? I'm not suggesting that the community actively persecutes people every time they make a mistake, but still it seems like somehow BC owners tend to end up with having this attitude toward themselves--like no matter how hard they try, they'll never be good enough for the breed. I think it might come from all the warnings out there about how you shouldn't get a BC unless you are a unicorn of a dog owner. I think maybe the subconscious message people get it, "I am not superman/superwoman, so I could never be a good enough owner and every time I make a mistake ,this is evidence." Obviously, a BC needs a special kind of owner, and you have to be willing to learn from your mistakes, but it seems like a lot of people are plenty good enough they're just self-conscious. Like I said, I've only been on the outside looking in, so I wanted to know if anybody here has felt this way or observed it in others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 I am a not a perfectionist. I think that only sets up for failure. We need to pleased with our dogs and Ourselves with small steps forward. I have worked with dogs all my adult life as a vet tech, dog owner, bc owner and partner for the livestock operation. What I do find is that many other breeds are simply easier going, laid back and enable you to be a 'slower' learner. If you let a lab or golden repeat a behavior 5 times, not so big of a deal if you want to change that behavior. Bcs have it down pat in three. If they enjoy that behavior and you have allowed it then you are going to have to step up if you want it changed. Most dogs, pets, learn what gets them the results they want. They have their people wrapped around their paw, even when they do admit it or realize it. Bcs just take it up a few notches. You have to take that huge engine and genius brain putting them to good use, not so critical with most other breeds. IN todays world people fail to realize that those things that make bcs great partners on livestock farms are the same things that make them difficult in a life they were not designed to live. It is that simple really. It is like tying a 7 yr old boy to a chair expecting him to be happy, not going to happen. I think the secret to getting any breed of dog and being overjoyed with that dog is doing your research to make sure that breed Fits into your LIFE, not just get a cute pup or have some great idea that you will begin running or hunting or whatever for your dog. That is the simple reason so many dogs end up in shelters. BorderCollies simply make it obvious people need to step up or they will drive you crazy. Most dogs if you have clear consistent expectations they will meet those, bcs exceed those. If you are not the kind of person to be very sure of what you want and need from the dog then folks have trouble with the really active smart ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Yes. Lots of border collie people try to put lots of pressure on other people. Particularly newcomers are regarded with a great deal of suspicion, and they have to prove themselves worthy of having a BC, otherwise they face the wrath and criticism. There seems to be a lot of insecurity among the bc owners that they then take out on other people trying to prove that they come short. EDIT: Of course there are tons of great bc folks, but those insecure who take BCs as to compensate for something, they have a need to constantly judge and criticism other folks under the pretense of caring for the breed, so they are very outspoken, and it seems like there are more of them than there are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, Maja said: Yes. Lots of border collie people try to put lots of pressure on other people. Particularly newcomers are regarded with a great deal of suspicion, and they have to prove themselves worthy of having a BC, otherwise they face the wrath and criticism. There seems to be a lot of insecurity among the bc owners that they then take out on other people trying to prove that they come short. Perhaps it's a cycle then? When someone feels thought of as an inferior dog owner, they look for someone to tear down, as a means of feeling comparatively better and thus decreasing the intensity of their bad feelings? And then the person who they tore down looks for somebody else to down as well? And so on? If so then that's sad. I feel sorry for everybody, even the ones being sharp-tongued. Poor people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, denice said: I am a not a perfectionist. I think that only sets up for failure. We need to pleased with our dogs and Ourselves with small steps forward. I have worked with dogs all my adult life as a vet tech, dog owner, bc owner and partner for the livestock operation. What I do find is that many other breeds are simply easier going, laid back and enable you to be a 'slower' learner. If you let a lab or golden repeat a behavior 5 times, not so big of a deal if you want to change that behavior. Bcs have it down pat in three. If they enjoy that behavior and you have allowed it then you are going to have to step up if you want it changed. Most dogs, pets, learn what gets them the results they want. They have their people wrapped around their paw, even when they do admit it or realize it. Bcs just take it up a few notches. You have to take that huge engine and genius brain putting them to good use, not so critical with most other breeds. IN todays world people fail to realize that those things that make bcs great partners on livestock farms are the same things that make them difficult in a life they were not designed to live. It is that simple really. It is like tying a 7 yr old boy to a chair expecting him to be happy, not going to happen. I think the secret to getting any breed of dog and being overjoyed with that dog is doing your research to make sure that breed Fits into your LIFE, not just get a cute pup or have some great idea that you will begin running or hunting or whatever for your dog. That is the simple reason so many dogs end up in shelters. BorderCollies simply make it obvious people need to step up or they will drive you crazy. Most dogs if you have clear consistent expectations they will meet those, bcs exceed those. If you are not the kind of person to be very sure of what you want and need from the dog then folks have trouble with the really active smart ones. Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I certainly don't think perfectionism is good even though I have those tendencies at times--not just as a dog owner but with many things in life. I have to keep reminding myself that it's okay to make mistakes and what really matters is if you learn from it and that you gotta pick yourself up, brush yourself off, and move on. And yeah Border Collies sound so fun yet scary at the same time haha I've trained a lot of dogs and had a lot of success with it but the most intelligent dog I've worked with is a Pembroke Welsh Corgi and I doubt it even comes close to a BC. I wonder if I'd be as good at training a BC? This is a pretty pertinent thing for me to find out now, while I'm BCless, isn't it? I guess I need to find an owner that will let me take some of their dogs for a test drive? Like let me try to teach something to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Starry777,Considering how cleverly you eased into the question of "will I be a good border collie owner", I think you will do great with border collies. Besides, it's easier to train a bc to sit - because you always know whether they have already done it or not. I had one corgi visit me and I had to ask the owner if she sat or not, because of the grass . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Starry777 I'm pretty sure I'm not a perfectionist, I'm just too lazy for all that work! I do tend to be blunt with people who ask me exactly how difficult it is to live w/a border collie. These dogs are a good breed for me. They need a lot of stuff that I need to thrive and be content. I need activity and interaction w/others. Border collies need the same. I need Something To Do. Ditto for border collies. As Maja says, it's easier to train border collies than many other breeds. I think it's also easier to train a border collie than not train it. And with a border collie, whether or not you're aware of it, you're always training it. I had to learn to be careful not to laugh around a couple of my previous dogs. My laughter at one of their antics meant, (to them at least) that whatever move or behavior had prompted the laugh was a GREAT THING that should be repeated. No cue necessary. Perhaps there's a bc rescue close by that needs some training help with their dogs? That would be a great way for you to interact w/one and help a good cause at the same time. Give you some personal experience w/these dogs. The very fact that you're questioning whether or not you should have a BC is a good thing. Ruth & GIbbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baderpadordercollie Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Most people can learn to live with and train a BC. They're not mutant phsyco dogs that need mental and physical exercise 24 hour a day. It's really about how committed you are. If you're one of those people who's idea of having a dog is feed them, water them, let them out to go potty, and that's it, a BC isn't going to work for you. If your idea of exercising the dog is letting them out in the yard 3 times a day for 10 minutes, and the rest of the day is spent lying around the house doing nothing, a BC isn't going to work for you. But if you truly love the breed, and you are truly willing to commit to spending some time on exercise and training every day, then who is anyone else to tell you that you can't have a BC? I think most BC people exaggerate the needs of the breed because they are trying to discourage the average Joe not committed lazy dog owner from getting a BC. Which is understandable, but nonetheless off putting to a lot of people who would make perfectly good BC owners. On the subject of perfectionism, I laughed because I am a big perfectionist. I am often plagued by self doubt, always feel like I'm not good enough, nothing I ever do is good enough. But funny enough, the one thing I actually feel good about, and feel like I'm actually good at, is being a dog owner, (or guardian, as I prefer to say.) Which is not to say that I'm complacent, or that I have it all figured out; I am always looking for ways to be a better guardian. But that is one of the joys my dog has brought me, is that when I am low and I feel I am good for nothing, well at least I'm a good dog guardian and I am good at taking care of my dog and making her happy. So perfectionist, I can relate to, but perfectionist dog owner, ironically, is one thing I don't experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Yeah it seems to me BCs are the breed that is the most like me because they have to get out and move and use their brains and have regular interaction with someone whom they share a meaningful relationship or their mental state just starts going all to heck--depressed, anxious, etc. I'm like this!! And I get worse and worse until I get my needs met, then it's like I snap out of it and I'm normal again. So I can totally relate to BCs in this regard. We could help each other stay sane, haha xD And we're both very driven in life. I've spent years teaching stuff to myself like Japanese because I just so badly wanted to learn it. I am the kind of person who buys textbooks just because I desire the knowledge contained within. And I'm dedicated to studying every single day even if I'm tired, I'm stressed, and wanna do anything but!! Well, if a BC was a person, I could see them doing similar things. Also I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I do get labeled "smart" a lot and it's because I've spent so many years developing my knowledge and critical thinking, so I've accumulated quite a bit of thinking power and I'm always seeking more. I certainly don't think I'm better than anybody, though, and I certainly don't know everything. In fact, the more I know, the more I realize just how much there there that I still don't!! But if you put me in a random group of people, I tend to be at or near the top with regards to how critically I can reason about the topic of conversation, and that's similar to if you threw a BC into a random group of dogs. And I love mental challenges and I relish the thought of trying to outsmart a Border Collie. I really want to put that intelligence to work and see what I can get it to do. I want to push it to its limits. I wanna see how complex of concepts I can get across to the dog. I hear that Border Collies can reason a little bit, so it could be really fun!! And just on and on and on I find I have so much in common with Border Collies, so maybe that's why I keep coming back to them even after having studied so many other breeds. They're just got something that no other dog has. -- And on the subject of training, what happens if only one person in the household is a skilled dog trainer? I live with my mother (I'm a 33 year old adult but we've always lived together to share expenses) and the dogs we've had always trained her, not the other way around. Like they're really good at teaching her to throw toys, share bites of what she's eating, give them pets etc. and it usually wasn't too much of a problem except with them not respecting her at doors and rushing out whenever one was opened. However, after I had a baby gate system installed around the door, where she would go through the gate first and close it before opening the door to the outside, it solved the problem. But those dogs weren't BCs. Do you guys think it would be enough if I was the dogs only source of leadership in the house? --- As for going to a BC rescue to find dogs to try and train, we have two BC rescues that I know of in So Cal but they don't have a central location. They keep their dogs in foster situations. So I would have to go to a foster's house, I guess, if the rescue and foster person were ok with this. What might be easier though is to just try to become a foster home myself? If the dog ends up being totally mismatched with me I just deal with the situation until it's placed in a more suitable home and move on to trying out the next dog, yeah? -- Oh and thanks for telling me that it's good I'm questioning getting a BC. Yeah, I'm a really look-before-you-leap kind of person! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 5 hours ago, starry777 said: I hear that Border Collies can reason a little bit... All dogs can reason, and I'd say more than just a little bit. I've never had a dog who I didn't observe reasoning in one way or another. As for leadership, I suspect any dog in your home will very quickly figure out who's the pushover and who it needs to listen to. Unless your mother changes and becomes consistent in expecting the dog to mind her, then the dog will most likely take advantage of her. They're opportunists and it's self rewarding. As much as I dislike much of what Cesar Millan advocates, he's spot on with identifying people who let their dogs walk all over them and his recommendations for changes in the ways they relate to their dogs. I think most rescues operate as networks of foster homes, so what you're finding in So Cal isn't unusual. So you'll probably have to travel to meet a dog you're interested in, and they'll probably also want to do a home visit to see where your new dog will love. But applying to be a foster home is a great idea to get some first hand experience with border collies. You may find that you foster several before you find one you want to adopt, but I'm sure sooner or later there'll be a foster failure come along. And in the meantime you'll be getting some great time getting to know some dogs. It's a very rewarding experience. I'd say go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 Yeah, I already told my mother how we might need to go through a string of foster dogs to find one that fits in our household and she said that's fine. Yeah, unless a dog is very soft-tempered it won't listen to my mom but when I come in the room it's a completely different picture. Suddenly we have an obedient little soldier. I'm home almost all the time and I'd be really involved with the dog, so hopefully that would be enough. I actually look forward to being kept busy by a Border Collie because I often feel like I have nothing to do and all day to do it in. I have a disability that makes it so I can only work from home and limits the number of hours I can work (but not my ability to care for a dog) so there is a lot of spare time. I try to occupy myself by always learning new things and I like doing that but it's stressful for more than a couple hours a day. I also need physical stuff to get up and do, stuff that feels purposeful. I like to exercise but it's soooooooo much better when I have somebody to go with me. A Border Collie would definitely be up for it. We could do all kinds of things together and I could teach it a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 17 hours ago, starry777 said: And on the subject of training, what happens if only one person in the household is a skilled dog trainer? I live with my mother (I'm a 33 year old adult but we've always lived together to share expenses) and the dogs we've had always trained her, not the other way around. Like they're really good at teaching her to throw toys, share bites of what she's eating, give them pets etc. and it usually wasn't too much of a problem except with them not respecting her at doors and rushing out whenever one was opened. However, after I had a baby gate system installed around the door, where she would go through the gate first and close it before opening the door to the outside, it solved the problem. My experience w/my ex-husband tells me that it doesn't matter if one person is capable with training the dog and another is not capable, for whatever reason. Ex-hubby was not interested and perhaps not capable of training at all. He loved the dogs and treated them well, except for the discipline thing. When we were together we had 3 border collies all at once. They liked him, but loved me and respected me because I did stuff with them. I've had a room-mate for a couple months now. This man is a dog lover and a believer in good boundaries. Gibbs responds to him very well, and Roomie has been good about following my directions in getting to know him. AND, I'm still Gibbs' Primary Human. One of my previous Gang of Three never met a person who wasn't his Best Friend immediately. Buzz was very out-going and loved nothing more than meeting new people. To the point that I finally figured out I could use that social drive as a way to train. If he wanted to meet someone, he had to pay attention to me first and do a couple things for me, then I'd take him to the newest 'best friend' to say hello. I'm adding the above paragraph because your dog could be one that bonds primarily to one person, or could be a lover of all humans, or could be in-between. The likelihood is that the dog will bond more closely to you if you're doing all the training, because b. collies love to 'work'. It still could be very fond of & trusting of your mom, but still be very much your dog. Oh and thanks for telling me that it's good I'm questioning getting a BC. Yeah, I'm a really look-before-you-leap kind of person! Yes, you're absolutely doing the best thing to ask questions now! Best wishes for finding your new furry friend!!! Ruth & Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 6 hours ago, urge to herd said: The likelihood is that the dog will bond more closely to you if you're doing all the training, because b. collies love to 'work'. It still could be very fond of & trusting of your mom, but still be very much your dog. This is what I'm thinking too. I think my mom would be mainly looked at as a ball thrower and a place to bum treats. But but like for serious mental stimulation and direction in life, it'd seek that from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasbc Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 Sorry, I'm a bit late to the conversation but just wanted to throw in some of my thoughts! I'm a first time border collie owner, and as someone who also spent some time looking in from the outside, I thought the same that border collie owners seemed very perfectionist, possibly even really high maintenance dog owners, if that makes sense. After getting a border collie, I've realised the same as what people are saying here is that border collies just do need an above average owner in the sense that they need to be prepared to train and exercise their border collie. When I browse the shelters here, I'd have to say at least 50% of the dogs in shelters are border collies (teenage border collies to be specific). In my area, border collies are the #1 dog to have just because there are so many sheep farmers here. However, people really don't get that a border collie needs that attention that average dog owners don't anticipate to give. I'm in the UK, and you have to be prepared to walk your dog just because the yards are so tiny! There's a woman a few houses down from me who has a border collie and he is the fattest dog I have ever seen in my life. She never walks him. It's just cruel. They need an owner who is prepared to go walking, hiking, do agility, training, etc. Not all of that, but something at least! I am a perfectionist. I always have been, and I am a perfectionist dog owner. It's not because of the breed but just because of who I am! I did a lot of research before committing myself to Dallas because I just couldn't live with myself if I failed him by adopting him and then not being able to give him the home he needs. Unfortunately, he has started showing fear aggression towards children and random strangers. My husband and I plan on starting a family in the next year and I'm facing the scary and heartbreaking possibility of having to rehome him for his safety and well being as well as any kids we may have. It's killing me. We're in behaviour therapy with him right now trying to rehabilitate him the best to our ability so we don't have to do that, but I'm so scared we will have to. I feel like such a failure for that even though I know I've done everything in my ability to prevent it. (Not even kidding - he was socialised as a puppy, we do lots of training, he gets 2-3 hours of exercise daily, etc). My MIL adopted his brother who is super laid back, loves everyone, super confident, etc. She never does training sessions with him. I mean, he doesn't even know 'down'! However, I still feel like I'm not near enough a good owner because of this stark difference between the two. I've actually even cried over this, which I feel so stupid saying I just do care a lot and want to be the perfect trainer with a well-rounded, well-behaved dog. I'm like you where I really study things out. I spent/spend hours reading how to teach different tricks and things and try to then teach Dallas them. I think you would be the perfect border collie owner you care, you have the drive and want to do training, you like to be out and active, you'll be fab! I think fostering is a great idea to help you get a better idea of what it's like to be with a border collie and find the one for you. One thing I wish I did was adopt an older border collie (older as in at least a year) so I could get a better idea of his/her personality before adopting. I love Dallas, but I was so not prepared for the heartache of possibly having to rehome him because of the aggression. In regards to the training and bonding, I do all the training in our house, but my husband is the favorite I train Dallas, walk him, play with him, feed him his regular meals, etc. But. My husband is the fun one. My husband is more rambunctious and only plays with Dallas, so when my husband comes on a walk or pays attention to Dallas, instantly Dallas goes, "Oh! Dad's coming! THIS MEANS NON-STOP FUN" My husband also feeds him bits of food on the sly during dinner despite us having the rule of not feeding him from the table and then because of my MIL's personality, if Dallas and I go walking with her and her dog, Dallas listens to her and not me. He sees her as the leader (even though she only sees him once a week and it's on these walks???) She's a more dominant personality than me, though, so I can see why he does it. Just something I need to work on! He listens to me in every other circumstance. Maybe if your mom does some playing with the dog or some training it'll help her be more of a person the dog will respond to? Just a thought. If that's what you want anyway! Good luck finding your perfect border collie I know he/she is out there just waiting for you! You'll make a fabulous owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 "Not a mutant psycho" is my favorite description. All a border collie needs is an owner who will actually involve the dog in their life, and provide some kind of structured activity. That can be working sheep, it can be doing sports, it can be picking up trash, it can be helping with the laundry and playing ball in a structured way. The biggest difference between them and other breeds, in my limited experience, is that they desperately want to be involved. It doesn't have to be 'adavanced', it doesn't have to be ninety billion hours of exercise, they just want to CONNECT and be part of your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 Dallasbc: I'm sorry to hear that your Border Collie didn't grow up with a more compatible personality. It seems that's the big risk in raising any BC puppy. I'm assuming that if I ever raise a BC puppy at some point, I have to be prepared to rehome it should it develop into a dog that can't live successfully in my house. But maybe this means I should just always take on adults? Because what if I had to raise like 4 puppies before one turned out to be a keeper? That sounds like hell haha since BC puppies seem a lot tougher to care for and that would be a lot of puppy care. So yeah maybe I'm just gonna stick to adults. I like adult dogs better anyways. When I have a pup, I'm just eager for it to grow up! I'm eager to see its adult appearance and personality. Dallasbc & CptJack: I'm glad to hear from yet more people that I seem to have the right idea about what I need to do to take care of a BC. There's so many horror stories about how they're impossible to take care of perfectly unless you're a sheep rancher or top level agility competitor but I guess I forget that those stories are geared toward an audience that sees dogs as something that just eats, sleeps, and poops which is not me at all. To me a dog is an important source of companionship and I want one that's going to be as invested in me as I am in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baderpadordercollie Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 I'd say that, while it's definitely possible to get a puppy that will grow into a dog that's just not compatible with you, 9 times out of 10 you will get along just fine with the dog if you raise them right. I have never experienced, or known or heard of anyone who's experienced, having to go through 4 different puppies to find the right one. However, if you are eager to begin advanced training and sports right away, a puppy is probably not best for you. Puppyhood is one thing you simply cannot rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 Oh really? Well that's good to hear. I had thought raising a BC puppy was a crap shoot, regardless of the parents and bloodline. Because of stories I'd heard like, "I loved his parents but he grew up to be aggressive toward strangers and we can't take him anywhere!!" I don't know what those people did in raising the dog, though. Maybe they socialized it good, maybe they didn't. And yeah you bring up another good point: you have to wait until pups are a year old to do anything strenuous with them. That wait is something I'd rather avoid if I can. But then again, if this was the future, and I already had an adult Border Collie doing everything with me, then I wouldn't mind having to wait on a puppy to get physically mature enough to do the strenuous things. Because the adult BC could scratch my itch to do the more physical things and then the puppy could be a totally different project where I focus on trying to mold it into becoming a great canine citizen. Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead, but I know that any BC I get is eventually going to get too old to do agility and frisbee and stuff anymore, so I think I'd like to always have a younger dog around to do those things with and then with the older BC I could just do like nosework or some else that's gentle. Maybe I'd be a household where there would alawys be a 12ish BC, a 5ish one, and a pup. Or something like that, I don't know. But of course for now, I only want to have one BC. I wanna get good with just one before I consider adding another haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baderpadordercollie Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 With your current situation and preferences, I agree, it would be wise to adopt a young adult. The subject of puppies being a "crap shoot" was actually discussed in an earlier topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starry777 Posted July 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 Thanks Baderpadordercollie, I read the whole thread. It was informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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