Jump to content
BC Boards
Lyrically_Speaking

A Few Questions About My Growing (7.5 Month) Pup...

Recommended Posts

I'm relatively new here, with my first PERSONAL dog, 7.5 month old  Kilo (key-low).

20180411_084117.thumb.jpg.5d5db34803ca1bc4a475b3165f4a6da5.jpg

1) I'm currently working on switching him from prong collar (Save The RANTS: he was on it to curb his attempts at chasing cars while on leash) to a front hookup harness (Kurgo brand) and he pulls like a mad man. I stop when he pulls, change directions, PRAISE like crazy when hes doing well, etc. Is there anything else that I might be able to do to make the switch EASIER AND PLEASANT for both of us?

2) He chases the cat. It's gradually getting better, as he comes back and generally abides by my commands to leave her be, but is there any thing I'm missing in this? I mean, he generally will chase and I will call him back and praise him when hes calmly playing again.

3) HE BARKS IN THE YARD. I really don't want a noise complaint and was looking for solutions as to how i can curb this nuisance barking. I HAVE been looking into bark collars and usually will tell him to quiet down or bring him in  when he starts incessantly barking. He has never been an incessant barker in the house or in his crate. Because of this, I'm opting out of an experience to take him camping with me in the beginning of august (for 5 days) and instead am staying home with him)

4) I now work 40 hour weeks on a bi-weekly rotation schedule (2 weeks days, 2 weeks afternoons, repeat) and was curious as to the thought of others as to my daily schedule with him (below). It seems to work for us and he seems to be happy with it, but I feel that someone with a bit more puppy/BC experience might think otherwise. 

WHILE ON AFTERNOONS:

9am: Wake up for me, 1st pee break for the puppy and breakfast in kitchen (in one of his puzzles/kong/snuffle mat) while i eat and get dressed

10am: Walk (25-30 minutes)

11am-1pm: Quiet play while I study for my exam mid-august (I'm a recently graduated Veterinary Technician with hopes to specialize in animal behaviour, and the exam is to be registered as an RVT)

1:30-2pm: Walk (25-30 minutes)

2-2:30pm: Fetch or quiet play

2:30-2:50pm: I get ready for work

IN BETWEEN MY MOM LETS HIM OUT AS HER AND MY BROTHER WORK DAYS, SHE ALSO FEEDS HIM HIS DINNER OUT OF HIS DISH.

3:15-11:15pm: Work

11:30pm: 15 minute walk

12pm: bedtime

 

Here's a picture of his puzzles/kong:

20180511_062056.thumb.jpg.c2d7ceb0a41c3078c78c5b9952e59261.jpg

WHILE ON DAYS

5:45am: Wake up for me, 1st pee break for the puppy and breakfast in kitchen (in one of his puzzles/kong/snuffle mat) while i eat and get dressed

7-3pm: work (in crate)

3:30pm: Pick up brother from work

3:45pm: he gets tied in the backyard (we have a short fence on 2/3 sides and he can ALMOST JUMP IT) as I shower

4-5pm: fetch/walk depending on how tired i am from work

5:30pm: dinner in puzzle/kong/snuffle mat for pup in kitchen while we eat

6-8pm: quiet play while I study

8-9/9:30pm: evening walk (it's been too hot this summer to walk him long periods when I first get home)

10pm: bedtime

 

5) He gets neutered on WEDNESDAY (July 11th) and I was curious as to if it would be wise to purchase a plastic cone SUBSTITUTE (a fabric one or such)? Being a VET TECH I am aware of the need for him to have calm play while he heals. Any recommender quiet activities?

6) Also, I am waiting on an AUTOMATIC BALL LAUNCHER to be delivered to the house, curious if anyone has any experience (good or bad) with them... I will be using it to tire him out on rainy days or on exceptionally hot/cold days (Canadian weather is crap) or when i am studying for my exam.

7) Also, his recall off leash is CRAP, does anyone have any tried-n-true methods of improvement, I would love to be able to walk him (nature trails, or puppy play) off-leash with reliable recall, but would like to take a hand at it prior to paying a trainer (just out of college and trainers would make money tight).

8) Lately he has been turning his nose up at his breakfast, HE IS STILL EATING, but in lesser quantities and it's curious. I typically will offer him 1 cup in the morning for breakfast and one cup at night of ROYAL CANIN MEDIUM PUPPY.  The bag states a 35lb, 7-8 month old pup should eat about 2 1/4 cups and he's only eating 1.5-1.75 cups. He's maintaining weight and isn't hungry or begging. Just curious how much you all feed your dogs.

 

Thanks again,

20180331_233105.thumb.jpg.10eab72abbd975ba92b7a02fd5372374.jpg

Dakota,m Lyric (the kitty-cat sister), and Kilo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, O M G he's adorable!  He's got very similar markings to my Gibbs.

Secondly, I'd say a big NO to the ball launcher. Border collies have a tendency to become fixated & obsessive about things. I can easily imagine a bc with access to a ball launcher doing things like barking at it when it's not on, staring at it from inside the house, guarding it from humans and other pets. It seems to me like a behavior disaster waiting to happen. 

Thirdly, barking in the yard would cause me to think, "Oh, he must want to come inside. Here, doggy!" Then the noisy beast would be crated for a little rest. No scolding, no retribution of any kind, no matter how tempting. What you would be teaching him is that barking means the fun ends. You may know this already, barking is very self-reinforcing to a LOT of dogs. Don't give him even a smidgen of a chance to go there. 

Fourthly, the Recall ~ at almost 8 months old, you've got a ways to go before getting a reliable recall. I've never raised a pup, but have been around people who have experience with them. For now, I'd think the best thing to do is reinforce him for coming to you Every Single Time he responds to your cue. It can be a treat, or a good back or butt scratch, or favorite toy. Every Single Time. Recall is the thing I will train all of my future dogs to do, no matter what else they learn from me.  A solid recall, practiced almost every day for the almost 8 yrs I've had him, saved my dog's life once.

Fifthly, in addition to all the above, your boy is going to hit adolescence in the next few months. Everything he's learned is likely to ooze out of his head. You'll be back to re-teaching what you thought he'd already learned. I have no idea whether it takes boys longer or girls longer to get through it.

Good luck with it all ~ you'll have a wonderful time with him!

Ruth & Gibbs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember that most pets in America are too heavy these days and that pet food manufacturers are out to make money. IOW, the recommendations on most bags are just too. much. food.

Consider yourself lucky you have a dog who knows when to quit on his own. They're few and far between.

Re: neutering. Did you read the recent post on that subject? If you've made up your mind to do it now, fine. But I'll repeat what I wrote then:

Most people (other than rescues, and I understand their reasons) recommend that you wait till the dog's done growing so that the growth plates have closed.

More and more though, people are starting to realize that hormones play an important role in the long term health of dogs. Studies have shown that intact dogs are prone to fewer health problems, e.g. less incidence of some cancers.

If I'd ever have another dog where I was in charge of the decision making, I'd definitely opt for vasectomy over castration for a male and an ovary sparing spay for a female, even if I had to travel. (I was dismayed to learn a couple years ago that Cornell doesn't even teach those procedures!)

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2016/07/27/neutering-spaying-effects.aspx?utm_source=petsnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20160727Z1&et_cid=DM112154&et_rid=1590108461

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/30/neutering-health-risks.aspx

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/age-to-spay-or-neuter-ovary-sparing-spay-vasectomy-cancer-links/

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/?inf_contact_key=0b504c1a0fe6c089b3ecf4530f3389d0a4f7b2bfbaababa80b876d14a40bf5f5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, GentleLake said:

Most people (other than rescues, and I understand their reasons) recommend that you wait till the dog's done growing so that the growth plates have closed.

More and more though, people are starting to realize that hormones play an important role in the long term health of dogs. Studies have shown that intact dogs are prone to fewer health problems, e.g. less incidence of some cancers.

Hi,

I'm not gonna start a debate on the matter of spay/neuter vs not. As I said, I am a VET Tech and I am aware of both upsides and downsides to neutering.

There are risks associated with the procedure whether or not you wait till the growing is complete, it is AFTERALL a SURGERY. Bear in mind though that while you are correct in the fact that there are disease processes and the likes that are avoided if ithe animal is intact, the same can be said if the animal is altered.

For instance, 

Pro-Altering

-Male cats/dogs who are neutered young (under 2 years) show a 80-90% decrease in incidence of inappropriate urine marking/spraying

-Roaming is reduced in both sexes (less drive for a mate)

-Reduction in amounts of testicular/uterine cancers

-80% of unaltered female cats and 70% of dogs will get  mammary tumours with 50-60% being malignant/cancerous

-PYOMETRA (pus filled uterus) is reduced in incidence

-No accidental litters 

 

Pro-Intact

-Better for future joint health in old age (studies suggest, but has not yet been proven)

-Reduction in some cancers

-Full appearance of secondary sex characteristics (IE tom cat pudgy cheeks, etc.)

My reasoning is simple, my dog is around a lot of other dogs and I don't want him to get hurt if he spends time attempting to mount an unreceptive female. Plus, my grandmother's 7 year old Shih Tzu is unaltered and I don';t think that'd be a healthy pairing or make for cute puppies. Plus, I also do not like his roaming and hope to help curb that (I realize training plays a larger role) and urine marking is unacceptable;e and best avoided.

Thanks for your help though,

Dakota

 

P.S. - Re: food, I'm aware that i leave excess food out for my animals, and I think the fact that food is available if he is hungry is one reason why he tends to eat ONLY what he needs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Secondly, I'd say a big NO to the ball launcher. Border collies have a tendency to become fixated & obsessive about things. I can easily imagine a bc with access to a ball launcher doing things like barking at it when it's not on, staring at it from inside the house, guarding it from humans and other pets. It seems to me like a behavior disaster waiting to happen. 

I had totally missed this when I ordered it, forgetting the fact that for a while he was fixated on shadow and tail chasing... Which I nicked quickly. Now he does about 3 turns of tail-chasing when REALLY excited and the rest of the time he couldn't be bothered. 

Thirdly, barking in the yard would cause me to think, "Oh, he must want to come inside. Here, doggy!" Then the noisy beast would be crated for a little rest. No scolding, no retribution of any kind, no matter how tempting. What you would be teaching him is that barking means the fun ends. You may know this already, barking is very self-reinforcing to a LOT of dogs. Don't give him even a smidgen of a chance to go there. 

I should specify that he's usually good until my neighbor's dogs start barking or if there's squirrels. He doesn't want inside BELIEVE ME, he thinks he need to be outside all day long, whether lying on the deck or running the yard/digging in his hole (he has one spot where he is ALLOWED to dig (as its a safe place and all he does is dig a hole big enough to lay down in the shade of the trees and in the cool dirt. He comes in when he starts barking and is told to settle either in his crate or for quiet play in his bed/toy box. He is as such, praised tremendously while he is calmly playing or while he is quiet.

Fourthly, the Recall ~ at almost 8 months old, you've got a ways to go before getting a reliable recall. I've never raised a pup, but have been around people who have experience with them. For now, I'd think the best thing to do is reinforce him for coming to you Every Single Time he responds to your cue. It can be a treat, or a good back or butt scratch, or favorite toy. Every Single Time. Recall is the thing I will train all of my future dogs to do, no matter what else they learn from me.  A solid recall, practiced almost every day for the almost 8 yrs I've had him, saved my dog's life once.

I'm aware he's still VERY MUCH a puppy and am proud of the fact that he tends to stick with me ON LEAD well and is getting better at coming when called from the yard or from the other end of the house. Typically coming when called is rewarded with treats or with me throwing his ball a few times (REWARDING). hHe got off lead at my grandmother's farm once a few weeks back and the recall we had established saved him from getting creamed along the 80km highway so I'd like to improve and he's got SOME recall.

Fifthly, in addition to all the above, your boy is going to hit adolescence in the next few months. Everything he's learned is likely to ooze out of his head. You'll be back to re-teaching what you thought he'd already learned. I have no idea whether it takes boys longer or girls longer to get through it.

Again, I'm aware and terrified of this stage, (OH THE TEENAGE YEARS, LOL), but I'm sure we'll make it through.

Good luck with it all ~ you'll have a wonderful time with him!

Thanks for the help and encouragement, it's been a wild ride thus far, but I'm still strapped in for the next 15-17 years :). He's my bestie (don't tell his kitty-cat sister as she'll get jealous) and as such I'll give him the best and my best.

Best Regards,

Dakota and Kilo

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi! I am not going to be a huge help in terms of experience being a first time border collie (and dog...) owner, but I am really interested as my girl is exactly the same age.

Barking is interesting, she just started it a bit more extensively, she barks and runs around in the garden if somebody or a vehicle makes noise on the street. Before I only heared her voice if I managed to make her too excited and she started to herd me. I always stopped that behaviour of course.

Recall is yet an issue. Generally it is fine, like 80-90% of the time. But if there is some fresh smell of deer or rabbit, she is off. I prefer off leash walks, but I really have to think about where to go and when to put the leash on. Otherwise she is really nice, watching where I am, coming in to check, coming when called. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Ildiko said:

Hi! I am not going to be a huge help in terms of experience being a first time border collie (and dog...) owner, but I am really interested as my girl is exactly the same age.

Barking is interesting, she just started it a bit more extensively, she barks and runs around in the garden if somebody or a vehicle makes noise on the street. Before I only heared her voice if I managed to make her too excited and she started to herd me. I always stopped that behaviour of course.

Recall is yet an issue. Generally it is fine, like 80-90% of the time. But if there is some fresh smell of deer or rabbit, she is off. I prefer off leash walks, but I really have to think about where to go and when to put the leash on. Otherwise she is really nice, watching where I am, coming in to check, coming when called. 

Well here's to hoping we both get the answers we desire. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Patricia McConnell just updated her article on loose leash walking. It's worth a look.

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/leash-manners-revisited

It's important to note that you can use all manner of tools to control the dog, but there does not exist a tool that will teach your dog to walk nicely for you. The human teaches, not the tool. Loose leash walking is a foreign concept to most dogs. It takes a lot of time for them to learn a habit so unnatural to them. Patience is key. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi from me, Odin, and new pup Phaedra!

the posters here helped me raise what many IRL call “the best dog ever”, so hang around! I work with a lot of PHDs in animal behavior (I’m a plant ecologist) and no offense, none of them have had anything on real experience with dog training and especially stockwork training. 

For auto ball launcher...no, no, no, I would never go there with any dog but especially not a BC. I’m not even a concerted effort to teach my new dog how to rapid fetch, instead we are teaching names of specific toys and she is to go fetch these by name from another room  I fully expect her to get fantastic at fetch anyway but mainly I have had to tone down Odin’s fetch focus, even with lots of tricks in between etc.  But a magic machine that the dog can develop “ideas” about? Would not recommend.

recall, in no particular order - a lot of long, light line work. Treating with food and toys (tug). Early on (like you are now) try not to recall if you suspect they will not come. Every successful  recall is a “dollar” in your bank account for recalls, and every blown recall is a $10 withdrawal from that same account.  So if you think about that and figure your “account” is already seriously in the red, consider switching the recall word and starting  from scratch.  It took us 1.5 years, but Odin’s recall is rock solid.  Can call off chasing deer, sheep, a ball, whatever..  and you aren’t there yet, but when you start seeing success with intro and modest recall efforts (low/moderate distraction), you build and build.  It would be great if you would share a bit more detail exactly where you are in the recall training process - describe typical failures and successful times. Final idea- I train stays and recalls in tandem. When you have them stay, and back away with a treat or toy, they want to come to you.  Have them stay, and the reward for staying is to get recalled to you (with command) and then They get the treat or tug or praise TOO !

for your schedule whatever works for you both is good  I personally prefer to eat before my dogs, and they are not to bother me while I eat. In return for sitting very quietly and non-pestily at my feet they occasionally - and this is important, sparingly and at random during good behavior- get a tiny bit of cheese, meat, or egg that is not too spiced.  It took a while to get to that point, obviously.  

last advice- impulse control training! Make impulse control your watchword ;-) 

good luck!

Ooky

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ooky said:

 I work with a lot of PHDs in animal behavior (I’m a plant ecologist) and no offense, none of them have had anything on real experience with dog training and especially stockwork training. 

 

That's an interesting observation.

The above mentioned McConnell both has a PHD, has hands on experience training dogs, and competes in herding trials, so it's not outside the realm of possibility for someone with a PHD in animal behavior to have hands on experience and have stock work training experience. 

But, I get what you are saying. Knowledge without hands on experience is useless, and visa versa. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Baderpadordercollie said:

it's not outside the realm of possibility for someone with a PHD in animal behavior to have hands on experience and have stock work training experience. 

I think a lot of this would depend on what their focus is, whether it be applied behavior or research, which is much more academic and not so much related to dealing with real day-to-day problems that people face with their dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should clarify there are very good animal behaviorists, that’s not what I meant. Just that theory in and of itself does not, in my personal experience, have anything on trainers who have dealt with dog after dog.  ESPECIALLY people who have trained dogs to do tasks as difficult and nuanced as stockwork. I also commend any budding behaviorist who is learning, and think this is a fantastic place to do so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the pulling on leash:

Tess is my first bc and by far the smartest dog I've ever had. She has also been the the hardest by far to train loose leash walking. She was reactive to cars, interested in everything, sensitive to the environment (not scaredy, but easily aroused), and a huge sniffer.

She's 5 yo now. For the first couple of years we worked a lot on walking with a flat collar and desensitising to the environment, with rewards (she isn't much interested in food so we had to work on building her food drive up). But things where getting worst instead of better so we added a prong for a few months. It didn't dampen her love of life and did somewhat curb the pulling, but I realized that I was relying on it and not working as hard on the behaviour itself, which is not what I wanted. So we tried a front attachement harness, which worked for some time but she eventually learned to pull with it. I then tried a bach atachement harness and weirdly it's the tool she does better on, coupled with intensive work on leash manners (which we have done her entire life). She wont accept food for the first half of her walk so we work on stopping when she pulls, turning around, figures 8, etc., and when she has spent some energy and starts accepting food, I reward heavily for walking by my side. She is now doing all right if nor perfectly. I joke she will be awesome on leash when she's 15 yo. 

When I first got her I noticed imediatly she was different form my previous dogs. More intense, more alert, more tunned in with me but also with the environment. She has extensive obedience training and we do a lot of different stuff together (swimming, hiking, fetch, frisbee, trailing, tricks, dock diving, scent games, etc., and I mention this because I think if I expect this kind of dog to have good leash manners she has to have a rich life), and she loves learning and working. She has a nice off switch also. But it's like she gets sooo bored from walking at my pace she just can't stand it. I can see when she's really trying and she keeps looking at me to see if she's at my side, but she has to really make an effort and any excuse is good for her attention to wander. All my other dogs where easy to teach this and fell in sync with me easily, Tess just struglles with it. It's who she is, I guess. It's been a long road and there where times when walking her was NOT fun, which obviously isn't the goal. But she's getting there, finally.

Sooo... maybe you will be lucky and your dog will learn it quickly, maybe he's a little like my Tess and it will be a struggle, but if you keep working on it he will get better, I promise. Hope some of this helps :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot something. I believe there's a method that would work wonders with Tess: going out the front door and the moment she gets ahead of me, turn around, go back in, remove her harness and ignore her for a couple of minutes. Repeat and repeat and repeat, even if it means that an hour long walk only got us to the grass in front of my house. The problem is she doesn't do inconsistency at all. Like, she doesn't forgive the slightest inconsistency. If she can pull once, then she can pull every time. And I suspect I would have to do this every single time we went out the door for at least a fortnight, if not more. We live in an apartment and I work, so that's very difficult, there are times when I just have a short time to take her out to do her business. I also strugle with that mentally myself. I love our walks and, fighting a depression right now, I need those walks with the sun and wind in my face and the companionship of my dog. I strugle with the idea of just not going for fun walks for a while. But I suspect this method might work If I was absolutely strict with it for long enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ruth's suggestion about barking did not mean that she thought the dog wanted to come in when he barked.

Rather, if you want the dog to stop barking (doesn't matter why he is doing it), a very good way to train him out of it is simply to go get him every single time he barks, and bring him inside (not with any anger or emotion at all attached to your actions, and without saying anything) and put him in his crate for 5 minutes. Just action=consequences. Bark=the fun stops and I go into my crate. This kind .of training works fast on border collies, and avoids getting into punishing. This is my base line approach when training a new dog. foster dog, or puppy the basic rules at my house. If you do this= good things happen. If you do that= the fun comes to an end. Of course, you have to be 100% consistent with this approach, as with all training, in order for it to be effective.

Your puppy is adorable. Very nicely marked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, teresaserrano said:

About the pulling on leash:

Tess is my first bc and by far the smartest dog I've ever had. She has also been the the hardest by far to train loose leash walking. She was reactive to cars, interested in everything, sensitive to the environment (not scaredy, but easily aroused), and a huge sniffer.

This is my first PERSONAL DOG and it is possible that I'm expecting too much from him too fast. Though as you've said this is the most "in-tune" dog I've ever known (despite being dopey today after his surgery.

She's 5 yo now. For the first couple of years we worked a lot on walking with a flat collar and desensitising to the environment, with rewards (she isn't much interested in food so we had to work on building her food drive up). But things where getting worst instead of better so we added a prong for a few months. It didn't dampen her love of life and did somewhat curb the pulling, but I realized that I was relying on it and not working as hard on the behaviour itself, which is not what I wanted.

This is what happened with me, he chases cars and I couldn't focus on the opulling and car chasing and school all at once, so for the past 4 or so moths he's been on the prong collar. It has curbed a lot of the pulling, buy beiong as I'd like to have him as an EVENTUAL (ONCE HE'S FULL GROWN) running companion I have acknowledged that the prong can NOT be a permanent fixture.

So we tried a front attachement harness, which worked for some time but she eventually learned to pull with it.

This is EXACTLY my problem right now, he loves the walks and I love them too, but after the first couple weeks he realized he can PULL and even the awkwardness of nearly tripping himself will not stop him. 

I then tried a back attachment harness and weirdly it's the tool she does better on, coupled with intensive work on leash manners (which we have done her entire life). She wont accept food for the first half of her walk so we work on stopping when she pulls, turning around, figures 8, etc., and when she has spent some energy and starts accepting food, I reward heavily for walking by my side. She is now doing all right if nor perfectly. I joke she will be awesome on leash when she's 15 yo. 

I'm thinking that this may be my next step, good thing his harness has front and back hookup :), coupled with treats and figure 8's and just INTENSE training on loose leash walking.

When I first got her I noticed immediately she was different form my previous dogs. More intense, more alert, more tunned in with me but also with the environment. She has extensive obedience training and we do a lot of different stuff together (swimming, hiking, fetch, frisbee, trailing, tricks, dock diving, scent games, etc., and I mention this because I think if I expect this kind of dog to have good leash manners she has to have a rich life), and she loves learning and working.

We do puzzle toys (food puzzles (which he enjoys and where he must utilize different skills and tactics to get his food out), long walks, have yet to take him swimming, fetch (fave thing EVER), etc. Both of my animals are enriched and WELL taken care of.

She has a nice off switch also. But it's like she gets sooo bored from walking at my pace she just can't stand it. I can see when she's really trying and she keeps looking at me to see if she's at my side, but she has to really make an effort and any excuse is good for her attention to wander. All my other dogs where easy to teach this and fell in sync with me easily, Tess just struglles with it. It's who she is, I guess. It's been a long road and there where times when walking her was NOT fun, which obviously isn't the goal. But she's getting there, finally.

My Kilo also has a decent off-switch and is happy with me in my bedroom CALMLY playing with toys on my floor or bed or staring out my bedroom window and watching traffic. 

Sooo... maybe you will be lucky and your dog will learn it quickly, maybe he's a little like my Tess and it will be a struggle, but if you keep working on it he will get better, I promise. Hope some of this helps :)

This helped A LOT and I'm thinking that I've now got some more ideas and a FRESH PERSPECTIVE as to how I can improve his leash manners. Though I've heard that it is safe to RUN with a dog on a FABRIC LOOP martingale (pictured below), being as they are only fit to tighten to typical collar tightness (no choking) AND being as he is already a dream to walk on the prong collar I figure that this may be an EASIER and more NATURAL transition for him (rather than a body harness). Plus, then the eventual means of walking him could be through a FINAL transition to a FLAT COLLAR.

LupinePet MicroBatch 1" wide Martingale Collar

 

11 hours ago, teresaserrano said:

I forgot something. I believe there's a method that would work wonders with Tess: going out the front door and the moment she gets ahead of me, turn around, go back in, remove her harness and ignore her for a couple of minutes. Repeat and repeat and repeat, even if it means that an hour long walk only got us to the grass in front of my house. The problem is she doesn't do inconsistency at all. Like, she doesn't forgive the slightest inconsistency. If she can pull once, then she can pull every time. And I suspect I would have to do this every single time we went out the door for at least a fortnight, if not more.

^^^ THIS is Kilo in a nutshell

We live in an apartment and I work, so that's very difficult, there are times when I just have a short time to take her out to do her business. I also struggle with that mentally myself. I love our walks and, fighting a depression right now, I need those walks with the sun and wind in my face and the companionship of my dog. I struggle with the idea of just not going for fun walks for a while.

I also struggle with depression and use the walks as an escape from the world SO I don't know that I can spend ANOTHER month trying to train lose leash walking on a harness (he uses it for car rides anyways as it's safer).

But I suspect this method might work If I was absolutely strict with it for long enough.

Agreed.

 

52 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I think Ruth's suggestion about barking did not mean that she thought the dog wanted to come in when he barked.

Rather, if you want the dog to stop barking (doesn't matter why he is doing it), a very good way to train him out of it is simply to go get him every single time he barks, and bring him inside (not with any anger or emotion at all attached to your actions, and without saying anything) and put him in his crate for 5 minutes. Just action=consequences. Bark=the fun stops and I go into my crate. This kind .of training works fast on border collies, and avoids getting into punishing. This is my base line approach when training a new dog. foster dog, or puppy the basic rules at my house. If you do this= good things happen. If you do that= the fun comes to an end. Of course, you have to be 100% consistent with this approach, as with all training, in order for it to be effective.

Your puppy is adorable. Very nicely marked.

He's a very pretty boy, I have to agree with you there :)

And I think that is my next step, no fun outside if he barks...thanks.

Edited by Lyrically_Speaking
Picture of martingale forgotten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts but I think you've got lots of great advice here!

 

My border collie hits a year old in about 2 weeks and around the same age as yours he started barking outside as well. What we would do is any time he started barking, without speaking to him or looking at him, we would just bring him inside. He is really well behaved outside now and I haven't noticed any barking from him for the past few weeks.

With the eating, mine is the same. I think it's the heat to be honest. What I've started doing is just leaving his daily food out all day so he can access it whenever. I know a lot of people dont' recommend this because of various reasons, but I'd rather leave it out and he gets food in than he doesn't get anything at all (he's a bit on the skinny side - don't want him to go underweight). There were a few days in a row where whenever I'd offer him his food at mealtimes he just wouldn't eat it. After leaving it out, I've noticed that periodically in the day he'll go grab a few bits of kibble, but in the evening once it has cooled is when he typically will eat the food. He will eat little bits of treat when we're outside on walks depending on how excited he is and how hot he is. If he's too warm he has a tendency to just drop the food. If he's too excited he just doesn't even notice that I'm offering him a treat!

In regards to him pulling on the lead, give it a bit more time. Dallas was a nightmare to train on the lead as well (he still can be sometimes), but he is improving. We never used a prong collar, but I did think about it heavily at some points. Just keep what you're doing with the changing direction, stopping, etc. It has taken months but Dallas is 100% better than he was at 8 months. Now he usually doesn't pull when I'm walking him, but he will still pull if my husband is with us, we're walking my MIL's dog, or if there are sheep around. He's getting there, though.

For the recall, do you practice on a training lead? They're super long and it lets your dog go off and do his thing but allows you to still have control. Letting him go off, calling him, and then, if he doesn't come, reeling him in can work really well. One thing I do is I'll take Dallas to an enclosed field and do training sessions in there, including practicing recall. He is by no means perfect (the fact that it's been said he has a while to go gives me hope!), but he does fairly well. Unless he is surrounded by soccer balls, sheep, and playful dogs, he almost always comes to me. We just need to work on his weaknesses...

I don't have anything to add on the other questions mentioned, but I think you have so much great advice already! I wasn't even sure if I should chip in because of that!

Good luck! Kilo is a cutie! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and adolescence was mentioned, too. It's a nightmare!!! Really and truly, it is like their brains have just vanished. Dallas hasn't necessarily forgotten any commands, but his attention span is shorter, he's testing boundaries (for a while he would look at me when I called him and then run off), and he's just a handful. He gets frustrated more easily than he used to as well. That being said, he's still a delight. I love him to bits. Puberty takes a lot of patience, so if Kilo starts regressing with anything, just hang in there. It'll pass eventually!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, dallasbc said:

Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts but I think you've got lots of great advice here!

I agree, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the boards here for the sake of asking questions and because of the friendly people :).

My border collie hits a year old in about 2 weeks and around the same age as yours he started barking outside as well. What we would do is any time he started barking, without speaking to him or looking at him, we would just bring him inside. He is really well behaved outside now and I haven't noticed any barking from him for the past few weeks.

This will be a pain in the a** as he is a determined little bugger and runs away when i try to call him in, he knows he's not to be barking, though generally he's okay unless the neighbour's pups are outside barking or if there is a squirrel.

With the eating, mine is the same. I think it's the heat to be honest. What I've started doing is just leaving his daily food out all day so he can access it whenever. I know a lot of people dont' recommend this because of various reasons, but I'd rather leave it out and he gets food in than he doesn't get anything at all (he's a bit on the skinny side - don't want him to go underweight). There were a few days in a row where whenever I'd offer him his food at mealtimes he just wouldn't eat it. After leaving it out, I've noticed that periodically in the day he'll go grab a few bits of kibble, but in the evening once it has cooled is when he typically will eat the food. He will eat little bits of treat when we're outside on walks depending on how excited he is and how hot he is. If he's too warm he has a tendency to just drop the food. If he's too excited he just doesn't even notice that I'm offering him a treat!

Good note, I've done the whole thing of leaving food out and also found that, though he usually leaves some (still) he's more apt to eating it later at night. Now he gets a early breakfast and a late lunch and then a later dinner.

In regards to him pulling on the lead, give it a bit more time. Dallas was a nightmare to train on the lead as well (he still can be sometimes), but he is improving. We never used a prong collar, but I did think about it heavily at some points. Just keep what you're doing with the changing direction, stopping, etc. It has taken months but Dallas is 100% better than he was at 8 months. Now he usually doesn't pull when I'm walking him, but he will still pull if my husband is with us, we're walking my MIL's dog, or if there are sheep around. He's getting there, though.

I'm hoping to transition him to walking/running on a flat collar EVENTUALLY, but just purchased an ALL FABRIC martingale for him (Pictured BELOW). He will be my running buddy come april-time next year (that'll put him at about 16.5-17 months old), which is why I've purchased this training aid... The martingale is meant to fit SNUG, but NOT TIGHT, when fitted properly, and is a SLIP COLLAR. The ALL FABRIC, as I've just purchased, is also safe for running with him because it only tightens to a bit tighter than a standard flat collar (when properly fitted), but still provides VERY MILD discomfort if he pulls. This I think is the happy medium for transitioning him to a flat collar (NOW that the car chasing is dying off MOSTLY). It sucks, but he is NOT, in any way/shape/form, taking naturally to the body harness.

image.png.4548002d72ee10c4b38f6484314dffac.png

In past I've tried HALTI (he wouldn't walk and rubbed his nose raw 2 weeks in a row), Gentle Leader (he nearly got hit by a truck pulling the leash out of my hands), Rear/standard/back hookup harness (pulled like a sled dog and knocked me on my ass at least half a dozen times), front hookup harness (he HATES IT and it's been a month of him tripping himself and unenjoyable walks), Prong collar (THIS ONE is the only one he has respected and with which he remains focused, that being said he knows his sit, stay, come, down and will obey 85% of the time with the prong collar on).

For the recall, do you practice on a training lead? They're super long and it lets your dog go off and do his thing but allows you to still have control. Letting him go off, calling him, and then, if he doesn't come, reeling him in can work really well. One thing I do is I'll take Dallas to an enclosed field and do training sessions in there, including practicing recall. He is by no means perfect (the fact that it's been said he has a while to go gives me hope!), but he does fairly well. Unless he is surrounded by soccer balls, sheep, and playful dogs, he almost always comes to me. We just need to work on his weaknesses...

This is a fantastic idea I hadn't thought of, so I ALSO purchased a LONG 20ft/6m lead (pictured below) and intend on training him this way, though it's prolly best to do it at my grandmother's place (she has a farm and a large pasture, or in the park later at night just before dusk). He's very toy and food motivated so a tug rope and treats of a HIGH VALUE seem like the way to go for him and me. I could prolly do 2-3 training sessions of RECALL per week.

image.png.a7cf1477536716fa1776f26f895042f6.png

I don't have anything to add on the other questions mentioned, but I think you have so much great advice already! I wasn't even sure if I should chip in because of that!

Thanks for the help :), though right now it's mandatory bed rest for my fuzzy satellite dish.

Good luck! Kilo is a cutie! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Lyrically_Speaking said:

In past I've tried HALTI (he wouldn't walk and rubbed his nose raw 2 weeks in a row), Gentle Leader (he nearly got hit by a truck pulling the leash out of my hands), Rear/standard/back hookup harness (pulled like a sled dog and knocked me on my ass at least half a dozen times), front hookup harness (he HATES IT and it's been a month of him tripping himself and unenjoyable walks), Prong collar (THIS ONE is the only one he has respected and with which he remains focused, that being said he knows his sit, stay, come, down and will obey 85% of the time with the prong collar on).

 

Please forgive me if this is innacurate, but from your description, it seems like you are endlessly cycling from collar to collar and harness to harness trying to find the one that will train your dog for you. Are you wanting to teach him loose leash walking or are you trying to find the best way to manage the pulling? There's no wrong answer there, some people don't mind managing and would rather do that than teach the skill, which is fine. For myself, if it's not bothering me, or anyone else, I don't bother training my dog out of it, unless it's something unhealthy, so I just manage it. Nothing wrong with that. But if you are seeking to actually teach him to walk on a loose leash, without using any management tools, there is no collar that will do that for you. 

If you are seeking only to manage the pulling, then stick with whichever tool you have had the most success with. (I think that would be the prong?) 

If the goal is to teach him loose leash walking on a flat collar, you will have to slowly and methodically teach him to do so, in baby steps, and it will take time. For me, it was worth the time investment. For you it might not be, it's up to you. But if you do want to teach loose leash walking, the collar alone will teach the dog nothing at all. 

There is no one right way that works for all dogs, but here is what worked for me. 

My dog currently eats kibble. So instead of pouring it into her bowl, I used it as treats. We would walk, and at first, I rewarded for every 2 seconds not pulling. 1, 2, "yes," treat. 1, 2, "yes," treat. Gradually we worked our way up to 3 seconds, 4 seconds, 5 seconds, etc. We got to 30 seconds. We got to a minute. Eventually we got to a point where I was rewarding so infrequently that I could phase out rewards completely. If she does pull, I stop, and I don't move until she releases tension on the leash. But she hardly ever pulls. During the training process, if I went on a walk and I didn't feel like or have time to train, I used a management tool, in my case a Halti, so she wasn't able to practice the behavior. 

So that is me, that is my dog. There are lots of different ways to teach them, and you will come across a whole plethora of them on the internet, but that is what worked for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Baderpadordercollie said:

Please forgive me if this is innacurate, but from your description, it seems like you are endlessly cycling from collar to collar and harness to harness trying to find the one that will train your dog for you. Are you wanting to teach him loose leash walking or are you trying to find the best way to manage the pulling? There's no wrong answer there, some people don't mind managing and would rather do that than teach the skill, which is fine. For myself, if it's not bothering me, or anyone else, I don't bother training my dog out of it, unless it's something unhealthy, so I just manage it. Nothing wrong with that. But if you are seeking to actually teach him to walk on a loose leash, without using any management tools, there is no collar that will do that for you. 

No no, I should've given more description for clarity. 

For the first month-month and a half (I got him at 10.5 weeks old) till he was 4 months old I had him on a back hookup body harness, he was fine for the first few weeks and then PULLED LIKE A SLED DOG in an attempt to chase cars.

I switched him to the HALTI in an attempt to curb the pulling, but he rubbed his nose raw trying to get it off and pulled the leash free of my hands 2x, once in a park with fenced green-space, and once he ran into oncoming traffic and damn near got creamed by a pickup truck. This is when I first contacted the trainer below. She told me to return to the body harness, but it was excruciating on my back to be yanked around so I put him on a gentle leader (GIFTED TO ME BY A FRIEND).

The Gentle Leader I had purchased and used for 2 weeks before speaking with a trainer IN REGARDS TO OBEDIENCE LESSONS (whom I didn't end up going with in the end) whom told me that the HALTI's "hurt dogs", knowing this wasn't true and being as we only have 2 trainers in my city (the other one runs a kennel facility and treats her staff like absolute CRAP, I know from personal experience) AND I was unsure as to what to do and wanted aid, at the time, I took her word and went with a PRONG COLLAR.

I hadn't had the time (I was in my final semester of college and dealing with midterms and exams (purchased him during my reading week) to train loose leash walking and was instead focused on curbing the leash pulling and the car chasing. I am aware that there is no collar that will train loose leash walking, but my intent is to at leats train him on a training aid similar to the PRONG COLLAR that works for him, but also that is safe for all the activities I hope to do with him in future (namely running and potentially agility with some handmade equipment once his recall is improved). My goal is comfortable walking and control in situations of extreme excitement, not necessarily  loose leash walking, though that'd be a dream... IDK if that makes sense...

If you are seeking only to manage the pulling, then stick with whichever tool you have had the most success with. (I think that would be the prong?) 

If the goal is to teach him loose leash walking on a flat collar, you will have to slowly and methodically teach him to do so, in baby steps, and it will take time. For me, it was worth the time investment. For you it might not be, it's up to you. But if you do want to teach loose leash walking, the collar alone will teach the dog nothing at all. 

Again, I'm aware that no collar will teach him loose leash walking, I'm simply transitioning to loose leash walking with the martingale as he is still a bit reactive towards cars AND it would make me feel a tad safer than the flat collar to train him on primarily.

There is no one right way that works for all dogs, but here is what worked for me. 

My dog currently eats kibble. So instead of pouring it into her bowl, I used it as treats. We would walk, and at first, I rewarded for every 2 seconds not pulling. 1, 2, "yes," treat. 1, 2, "yes," treat. Gradually we worked our way up to 3 seconds, 4 seconds, 5 seconds, etc. We got to 30 seconds. We got to a minute. Eventually we got to a point where I was rewarding so infrequently that I could phase out rewards completely. If she does pull, I stop, and I don't move until she releases tension on the leash. But she hardly ever pulls. During the training process, if I went on a walk and I didn't feel like or have time to train, I used a management tool, in my case a Halti, so she wasn't able to practice the behavior. 

This is my intentions,training similar to this using the martingale as the training method for loose leash/polite walking AND on days where I can't train I will use the tried and true prong. Sadly' I can't run with him on a prong, for obvious reasons. Besides, I have 5-8 months to perfect polite leash manners with him prior to being ABLE TO run with him.

So that is me, that is my dog. There are lots of different ways to teach them, and you will come across a whole plethora of them on the internet, but that is what worked for me. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lyrically_Speaking said:

...he is a determined little bugger and runs away when i try to call him in...

Every time you let him get away with that you're reinforcing his lack of recall. IOW, he's learning that coming when he's called is optional because there's nothing to enforce it. And it's self rewarding for him to do whatever he wants to rather than come back to you when he knows the fun's over.

If I were you I'd start recall training all over again with a new cue because whatever cue you're using now has been tainted. Put him on a long line and reel him back in every single time he blows you off. When he gets to you, throw a party like it was his idea to respond in the first place. Never call him back to you for the purpose of ending his fun.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×