Britta Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Has anyone ever heard of this or has any info on it? I've been told that there has been some research done on this in the USA! One of the most recognsable 'symptoms' is that when 'rage' sets in the eyes turn red! The pupils dilate accross the whole of the eye and turn VERY red. Once calm again, they soften again. - If you've ever seen it happen, you'd never forget it!!! I ask this because the trainer in the obedience class i take Jess (3 year old rescue i've had for 18 month) to, thinks that this is what she suffers from! Over the time she's been with me she's turned into a pretty happy dog - 2 weeks before i got her she would draw blood when someone tried to put a lead on her... The 'only' problem i've got left with her is close handling. Most of the time i can touch her anywhere, run my fingers between her toes, check her teeth, etc. Other times she freaks out completly, 'rage' is probably a good description - yesterday she drew blood on me for triing to check her ears while in the class. (We did get her sorted pretty quickly, and treats or clickers were not part of the solution!). If this symptom exists i'd like any info on it, not because i think the aggression needs to be dealt with any different because of it, but because there may be things to prevent it occuring!? I've been told to have the dog put down by this trainer, others who know her don't believe me she could hurt a fly because she is so submissive, friendly and happy - until they have seen her in action which is not often!!! Because we've made such massive improvements since i got her i don't feel i can give up on her yet... Britta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEL Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 I have heard of "rage syndrome" in cocker spaniels...thats all - as in, I've *heard* of it...I don't know what it is or if it is not breed specific and whether there are valid medical tests to determine its presence.... I would tend to doubt that your obedience trainer has the medical expertise to diagnose it, in any case. sorry not to be more help janet check out www.essfta.org/aggression.htm and vin.com/petcare/articles/dogs/pcf00271.htm [This message has been edited by JEL (edited 07-11-2002).] [This message has been edited by JEL (edited 07-11-2002).] [This message has been edited by JEL (edited 07-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Britta: Does your dog flip out at certain things consistantly - or does this behavior just come out of the blue? If a hand coming at her a certain way sets her off, if certain body postures set her off and her behavior is consistant then it is probably not "rage". If she just goes off at wierd times and out of the blue then I would tend to think she may have actual mental problems. Talk to a vet- a neurologist, if poosible - if that is the case. There might be medication that helps - it could be some kind of siezure activity. I have a dog that was abused - beaten - and she will go into a defensive posture and threaten to bite (and actually bite if you don't get your hand out of the way) if a hand comes at her a certain way. I never put my hand in her crate and try to pull her out. I don't think I would take a trainer's word for this. And if you get a dog that has been abused and reacts like this you certainly don't want to use normal corrections. They don't work and will make matters worse. Molly has gotten a lot better as time goes by. I never use physical corrections with her - I always use my voice. I do have a muzzle for her for Vet visits. And I don't take her out in public much - that is too stressful for her. I just kind of let her do her own thing at home. And I take her to the park to run. And 99% of the time we get along just fine. She will never be completely "normal" but I am willing to live with that. She is very sweet and affectionate most of the time. Could I do activities with her - no. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 I did know the cocker factoid, but didn't know about the consistency/inconsistency thing Mary. BTW Mary, you are a peach! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Britta,this dog sounds alot like Mary's Molly, only better. I have worked with a few like that. Most often the"rage' is actually a fear response and the dog has been 'Taught" not to growl--hence the bite w/o warning. These can be very dangerous dogs, but not impossible. From what I know of actual 'rage' syndrom, it is a neurological disorder. However many years ago I read that what was being called 'rage' is more often misdiagnosed and is actually a dog which exhibits few signals as precursors of it's level of stress and unless you are VERY alert the dog just seems to snap. (no pun intended) I have worked with several BC';s which were taught by their owners NOT to growl. A normal dog will growl as a warning that they are stressed, fearful or whatever then if the cause of the stress doesn't go away the dog will bite. In many BC's and a few other dogs (I usually see it in boxers) the dog, when corrected for growling will simply learn to NOT growl. As I understand it, many of the springers, cockers and I've seen Newfoundlands which seem to have been selected for lacking signals. The dogs are supposed to have a calm demeanor and the breeders seem to be selecting for dogs which do not exhibit signs of excitement or agitation--this does not mean the dogs do not get excited nor agitated, just that they do not tend to give the normal body language associated with these behaviours. This does not mean the defensive/aggressive tendencies are gone, only that the warning is removed. the owners are usually shocked when the dog 'snaps'. Mary's Molly I suspect is a trained response as she does give other good signals that she is stressed. Molly has certain things which will trigger her to be frightened and she was inadvertantly (why? who knows) taught not to growl. But, this is not true rage syndrome, only bad training. I have worked with 3 BC's taught not to growl and given up by their previous owners because of their biting. All were never taught bite inhibition as puppies. I don't have the exact history on any of them as the owners seemed to think they did nothing wrong. But all had intense fear responses when the collar was grabbed or hands approached the neck. Watching the pupils showed they dialated dramatically when a hand went near their necks. I know Molly was sent off to a 'trainer' and came back worse. I have seen the same behaviour in other 'rescue' BC's which were sent off for training. Sounds like you have made a lot of progress. With these dogs the handleing takes alot of time because the trust is broken. I found with Sam (the one I kept the longest) a muzzel worked great for handling. I could just ignore the attempts at biting and continue with what I was doing as if nothing happened. By ignoring it, he saw that I wasn't going to hurt him and I could gain some trust from him. He also saw that I wasn't afraid (he was muzzeled, so he couldn't bite me, why be afraid?) so his threats--showing teeth etc were useless. I also praised him profusely should he ever offer to growl--which was seldom. Often these dogs have learned that by biting they can have their way. If the aggression is escalated by the human, it most often escalates on the part of the dog--and usually the dog wins. The key is in preventing. Watch what things 'set her off' and graduallly habituate her to those things. IMHO the worse of these dogs never get 'cured' that is one of the heartbreaks of working with rescue BC's Finding homes like yours or Mary's is rare. These dogs need constant supervision for the remainder of their life. Or, they could live the life of Reilly (his real name). he went to the Bahamas as a security dog. They loved him. He never barked, nor gave any warning. He just ran out and bit anyone who entered his yard. Bit his handlers on a regular basis--they LOVED him. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britta Posted July 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Thanks for all the replies Of course i'll never know just what happened in her first 18 month, but the weird thing is that she's just so 'on and offable' - She will go round an agility ring (non-competitive), other than my obvious problems is probably top of her class, loves people and dogs, obeys outside off lead like a dream - will call off anything, drop into a down, etc. The only thing i can make sense of is that she must be very sensitive to my tensions - maybe i set her off? When she does turn it is although she freezes - goes very stiff - she does growl and snarl before she snaps, and if i walk away she'll calm down, but i can't accept certain behaviours of a dog - just for her own safety. The muzzle seemed a good option but i had to use it very early on in our time together for some very unpleasant vet-visits (another story) and now i can not get near her with one! (not even if its filled with chicken and left in a room!!!) Physical corrections are not really 'my style' but when a dog who i stroke round the ears every day suddenly draws blood for having them touched i can't just ignore it. We didn't hit her but put a slip lead on her and corrected her every time she tried to bite - within 5 minutes she suddenly relaxed (smile, soft eyes...) and was ok to touch all over... - until when i don't know Britta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Britta, sounds like she may have thought she slipped up the status ladder a notch. The freezing behaviour is a standard 'Calming"signal (read Truid Rugaas and Stanley Cohren) . Have you taken the "no Free Lunch" approach? The head stroking sounds alot like Mary's Molly. My guess is there was something very bad that happened when the dog was being handled around the head and periodiocally she fears the same and will just react. In Molly's case it seems very much like a panic attack and the dog seems to sense that she is trapped (even if she isn't) and reacts in a 'trapped rat' fashion. And did the vet trips have anything to do with her ears? Bite inhibition supposedly can be taught (I've not had the opportunity to do this with an adult dog) to adult dogs, but I am not sure of any definite positive results for some dogs. Often a dog which has had a bad past will not show any signs of past problems when a new training technique is applied in a totally different set of circumstances. Hence, if Jess has only had good experiences with agility and it's associations, there will be no problems in that context. however, especially with BC's, if there was a bad experience with something--and especially if the dog learned that biting was a way to make it stop--these problems tend to show up at different times. we may not even notice the triggers for the behaviour. Suppose her previous owners used an 'ear pinch' for a correction (and it is listed in some training books for teaching and correcting). Like any training tool, used incorrectly the results can cause more harm than benefit. If you email me privately eldemar @ grasshoppernet, i may be able to put you in touch with a trainer near by who might help you get some insight into her behaviour. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Britta, make that eldemar @ grasshoppernet.com Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Britta: With a rescue dog you never know what they have been through. Someone may have picked her up by the ears. You go to touch her ears and she goes off. To you it looks sensless but she goes into fear mode and tries to defend herself. Border collies are funny. They can be extremely sensitive to things. And oddly, they can seem very timid and sensitive and yet have a stubborn streak a mile wide. My Molly seems like the classic timid, soft dog but she really isn't. She is a lot tougher than she pretends to be. Most trainers don't have a clue how to work with these dogs and they can really screw one up fast. I always found that I got the best information on handling by going to working clinics. The people that put on the clinics have worked with border collies all of their lives. And they really know how to handle these dogs. There isn't a problem you can have that they haven't run into themselves. I learned a lot just by going as a spectator (which is a lot cheaper), pulling up a chair next to the workout pen. I just watched and listened all day. Jack Knox, Bill Berhow, Nyle Sealine. One thing that seems to work with Molly - and Pam hit on this - I try to just totally ignore her wierd behavior and just go right on like nothing happened. She has only bitten me twice - once when I first got her and she was still totally wigged out and once when we were at the vet and she was totally wigged out. Most of the time she just growls and curls her lip to let me know she is getting stressed. I just pull all the pressure off her and give her time to settle down. She gets over it pretty fast. I'm not at all sure that her reactions are really anything that she can control. Really, its like Pam said, its a panic attack. Her fear takes over. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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