Sue Whiteman Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 I hadn't thought of this before but when I play ball with my non-working BC (YES I HAVE A PET BC!! poor thing was bred for show and i took pity on him...) he almost always puts the ball dead in the middle of a space for me to pick up...like a doorway or between two legs of a table. Now space and distance are important for a working dog and I gets to thinkin' that maybe BC's have Special Powers of Symmetry which is perhaps allied to balance...keeping things in the middle and stabilised. Both are horizontal perceptions of symmetrical position at rest. It also may explain why dogs with lots of "eye" go straight for the middle of a flock of animals when they drive off and most BC's are concerned that all the stock is bundled together. They have a better sense of symmetry. These also tend to pick up the stock in trials on balance when they lift. And why there is no balance when the handler is (unfortunately) in the middle of the stock and the dogs is running around trying to find a point of symmetry/balance.They like things to be in the middle, at rest. (Course they like moving things too...just so they can put them back to the middle at rest.) Any takers on my musings? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Interesting. I will respond again when more alert. But there could be soemthing to it. I have a couple of dogs which have really too much balance and they always seem to want to keep things VERY calm and have an uncanny ability to settle stock. Also, having worked with alot of 'lose eyed' dogs they seem to have some aspects of balance, but lack in other aspects. This one sounds like alot of mussings needed over a stiff drink. Pam so much for late night posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 I'm curious if you gals or guys have a personal view of the way dogs think. I think that their brains work a lot like ours, but that if their abstract thinking is characterized by language, its of course their own. So because I belive that they think in similar ways to me, I guess I would say that border collies sense of symmetry might be better than mine but that I would not give such a sense an inordinate amount of weight in any explanation of herding instinct and behavior. Sue, my pet theory is that the border collie has a remarkable strenght in its ability to think in terms of future events and to consider the motivations of human partners and other animals. From there, I guess I might argue that they differ between individual as to tendencies that characterize their species just in the same way humans do. Um, even though I attribute such consciousness to them, I am not a member of PETA or the Animal Liberation Front. I'm just a strong example of the paradoxical nature of human consciousness. Gee, I don't even have the "late night musings excuse." ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Sue, still mussing. Margaret, One of the reasons the BC seems so adept at 'forecasting' the actions of humans and animals is that they are extremely adept at reading animal body language. Dogs do have a wonderful language of their own. All animals do. Just most of us humans never take the time or effort to understand their communication syste. If you ever get the chance to study a wolf pack, I urge you to do so. the language is subtle and beautiful. Pam Member of the other PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Thoughts. herding dogs do tend to understand relative positioning quite well. I work with some 4H kids in obed and if the herding dogs learn to sit crooked it is a real b**** to correct! This does seem to translate rather well to other aspects also. I am not sure how much of the balance in your thoughts can be seperated from the 'eye'. I tend to think of eye in terms of extreme concentration. I've seen 'eye' in a variety of breeds and many of those seem to lack the balance of a well bred BC. And 'eye' can be missed w/o the style that we are used to seeing in a BC. And then once I had a BC with beautiful style and no concentration/eye. She also had very poor balance. Looked real good in a round pen, but in a field she was almost useless. As for the symmetry thing., would help explain why some dogs can learn to hold a line ant others cannot. if the dog has "Special Powers of Symmetry", keeping the sheep between him and the handler, thus giving a straight path for the stock would be logical. And I've known dogs which seem to sight a pannel and take sheep straight towards it once the handler gets the dog to turn the sheep towards the pannel and the dog spots the pannel. this would follow in your symmetry itheory. Interesting (insert a Vulcan's raised eyebrow here) Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 "...the other PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals)" Ha! Guess I am a member of PETA after all! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 We had a discussion of some similar thoughts on the thread below, if any of y'all are interested... http://www.bordercollie.org/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000118.html ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 OMG! Now that's substance...! Thanks Mr. G. Uh Oh, it seems I've lost my instinctive drive to process substance....! Off to read! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted June 27, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hmmm... Nice correlation between symmetry and holding a line. How about balancing for a shed (or indeed anything else)? The "eye" thing is something else, perhaps, though linked strongly to it. When a dog takes a flock straight to the panels he is "steering" by the pressure he exerts on the sheep from three different points...to the left and right of the sheep and from the distance behind. If the lead ewe starts to turn her head in one direction, if only to check where the dog is, the dog should move slightly towards that direction to correct the line as sheep have great peripheral vision. Now some dogs with less eye need to show more of their presence to the lead ewe...hence they start to flank/swing. Those with more eye can just look at a ewe and convince her she should give up even thinking about escaping. Pam seemed to equate "eye" with concentration. To be sure, the two are usually found together but I wonder if they are the same. I was talking to a very experienced handler of BC's the other day who knew the grandfather of my young dog very well. I had been trying to get 20 blackface ewes into a pen for treatment that they definitely didn't want anything to do with. When I described the difficulties we were having he said that the G'father used to pen the sheep with his eye. Now that isn't JUST concentration..that is some kind of "look" or "menace" as well. TBH when I look into the eyes of my other dog when he is working, he scares the daylights out of me!! That being an aside, I wonder how many other breeds have the same kind of innate symmetry? Is it a general canine thing or is it more pronounced in herding breeds? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted June 29, 2002 Report Share Posted June 29, 2002 Eye in other breeds--it's there, just looks different. and it is in very few members of most breeds. Of course Kelpies have eye and I've seen it in ACD's, Pembroke Cogies and the Lassie dogs for a few. Seems the farther the family tree is from true herding stock, the less likely eye is to show up. And it can be hard to recognize since most of these dogs lack the structure to get into the tpical BC crouch which is associated with eye. I once had a dog (bc) which lacked concentration--never really looked at the sheep, eyes kept shifting back and forth sorta mindlessly--but she had tremendous style. As for balance. i think it may be more complex than many think. I see it as a positioning behaviour which includes traits which allow the dog to keep the stock grouped, calm and moving in a dirrection. As for dogs holding a line, I've seen many who simply hold the eye of the lead ewe (on smaller groups) and keep a line using a minimum of motion on the dog's part. And I've seen dogs which wear alot behind the sheep to keep them together and moving. Could not both be said to have balance, just different types of balance? I will add here that often the later (wearing ) dogs can be trained/handled to learn to move straight ahead on their stock. The wearing type of balance seems to me to be more associated with looser eyed dogs--especially if you think of eye in terms of concentration. If your mind wanders, you are not concentrating that much, you may do a sloppier job than someone else who is concentrating harder. then again, if you are concentrating TOO much (too much eye) nothing may get done as you are too mesmerized by the task. If you read Stanley Coren's book on Speaking dog, he mentions that dogs "point" whith their eyes, unlike humans who point with their fingers. If a dog really wants something he will stare at it. We know the dog HAS to Want the livestock in order to be able to accept the training necessary to become a good working partner. The more the dog wants the stock, the more 'pressure' he can take from training. And if a dog wants something he will stare at it. Loose eyed dogs OTOH don't tend to 'want' the stock that much if there are rules to be followed. Hence they don't 'stare/concentrate' as much on it. And also they are much easier to call off stock than a well bred BC. That is one of the main things anyone notices about the differences at first. The BC really WANTS to go tot he sheep. I've noticed that loose eyed breeds (and some very loose eyed BC's) don't have the same type of balance as wel bred BC's. They more often tend to lack the component of balance which is distance from the sheep and this can be VERY difficult to teach them since their concentration/desire is not as great. Some individuals--and there are individuals among the breeds which if they had the structure could be fine herding dogs- those which display more concentration on the job at hand either come naturally with the distance component--meaning they know innately to keep their distance off the stock-- or are quite easy to guide into keeping distance. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted June 29, 2002 Report Share Posted June 29, 2002 "I've seen many who simply hold the eye of the lead ewe (on smaller groups) and keep a line using a minimum of motion on the dog's part. And I've seen dogs which wear alot behind the sheep to keep them together and moving. Could not both be said to have balance, just different types of balance?" I've certainly noticed that the first type of dog is the one "we" are tending to breed to - because they are rewarded by looking good on smaller groups of livestock...I tend to think they are the same ones who, without specific training, have a hard time "gathering the hill" and driving flocks of 200 and up...viewing these dogs as the ones who will tend to split sheep in large groups... I'm not sure this has anything to do with "eye" - and perhaps not even "balance" - I've seen loose eyed and strong eyed dogs split sheep, and do both ridiculous and creditable jobs of gathering huge amounts of sheep... So maybe that does fit into the "symmetry" concept...? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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