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MDR1 - can we eradicate?

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4 hours ago, Little Bo Boop said:

If you followed the thread, it was clear that Mark was referring to the the dog I was referencing,  TG was the dog in question pretty much throughout the entire thread, and TG is an international champion, by way of winning the European nursery championship.  As you said, I'm not being snarky, but do you know what dog we are talking about here?  

I'm sorry, I've tried -- I've even re-read the whole thread -- but I just can't read that the way you're reading it.  It's very clear to me that Mark was posing a hypothetical question about a theoretical dog who was an international supreme champion or a national champion -- a dog of undisputed superior working ability.  He thought that would crystalize the point he was trying to make.  (I have no idea what being European nursery champion even is.)  You and Journey may have been thinking of this particular dog, but I assure you Mark was thinking about dogs carrying MDR1 in general, if only because ABCA and ABCA HEF would not legislate or regulate about one particular dog.  The fact that taking action against one particular dog owner seemed to be what Journey was looking for was one reason it was hard to respond to her.  When we make rules, we make rules of general application.  The fact that you were thinking of one particular dog while we were thinking of how to deal with MDR1 in the breed probably also gives rise to Journey's repeated implications that we are not taking action because we are shielding or catering to one particular dog owner, which from our point of view is preposterous.  The answer to your last question is that no, I did not know what dog was being talked about until you began describing a particular dog in your first post to this thread.  I still don't know who owns the dog, although I assume Denise does know, since she is the director who is now trying to look into this particular situation.

4 hours ago, Little Bo Boop said:

As a Border Collie owner, and as someone who LOVES the breed, this is what I would like to see from the ABCA, our steward of the breed.  I would like, much like you did with the volume breeders list,  information on the genetic defects that affect our breed. Yes, I know, we can always google things like that, but there's always the 'you don't know, what you don't know' .  Give us a list of the issues, give us info. allow us to make informed decisions when purchasing a puppy. Had I known about this MDR1 stuff beforehand, I would not have purchased the pup I have now...and no way I would buy one in the future with that mutation.

We do give information on the genetic defects that affect our breed.  Look at the Genetic Mutations section of the HEF website, which I cited above.  Mark Billadeau himself has personally been monitoring the MDR1 mutation for at least 12 years, periodically contacting researchers at UCDavis who have been tracking the incidence of the mutation.  There has barely been a trace of an incidence in border collies found up until very recently, which is naturally what we reported.  (Note: I passed over your comment about finding Mark "very condescending" earlier because one of the reasons it's against the rules on these Boards to insult posters personally is that it has a way of leading discussions off-topic, and I didn't want to go off-topic.    But I have to say that Mark loves the breed no less than you do, and makes a tremendous contribution to the health of our dogs.  He devotes a major part of his time to understanding and informing people about health considerations affecting our breed, using scientific knowledge that very few of us are fortunate enough to have.  He links to research that he hopes will help people to understand more difficult concepts.  I think you make a mistake in disparaging his contributions.  I don't see how he can win.  If he references studies using scientific terminology, you say you don't know a heterozygote from a billy goat and think he's condescending not to use terms you can understand; if he simplifies, you think he's condescending because he acts like you aren't smart enough to comprehend scientific language.  It must be hard to give so much time and effort to advance the health of our breed, only to be personally disparaged.) 

We are not going to provide a list of dogs carrying the MDR1 mutation or their owners.  ABCA provides the HVB list because the registry has solid, uncontestable information about how many pups breeders register, it is very difficult for puppy buyers to obtain this information, and we believe puppy buyers should have access to it in making their purchasing choices.  We do not provide information about the health test status of individual dogs because we believe in the long run it would drive breeders/owners to refrain from testing and/or to conceal health problems in their dogs to avoid such publication, and we think it is better to encourage openness about testing and sharing test results. 

4 hours ago, Little Bo Boop said:

 Let us know! and don't talk over peoples heads, we aren't all science types,  I don't know a heterozygote from a billy goat...explain things in terms we can understand, then we can make informed decisions.  And lastly I would ask that you (not you personally) don't abuse or dismiss people that ask questions or bring up topics that maybe weren't on your radar, or that maybe you just don't think matter.  Karen, might have been a bit abrasive in her approach, but she brought up a lot of good points,  points that are worth looking into in my estimation, she tried to bring something to the board that she thought important, it impacted her, she has a pup from this line, she has a dog in the fight... I didn't always feel that way, but now I guess I have a dog in the fight as well...        

Final word, I don't know the impact of MDR1 on our dogs,  it could be minimal could be nothing...but the thing is, we just don't know...I've seen enough to make me wonder, so if nothing else,  IMHO it should be monitored, hell it doesn't cost anything, so what's the harm?  

I don't think Journey or you have been abused, and I know you haven't been dismissed.  We welcome health information from anyone.  We are not running around with our hair on fire -- I don't think that's our role.  But we are trying to monitor and address MDR1 in the soundest and best way we can.

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I give up.  Thank you for your time. I said from the start I didn't intend to make a crusade out of this.  I've said my piece, voiced my concerns, that's all I can do.  I will however make my thoughts known within my own little sphere of influence, best I can do. 

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3 hours ago, Eileen Stein said:

I'm sorry, I've tried -- I've even re-read the whole thread -- but I just can't read that the way you're reading it.  It's very clear to me that Mark was posing a hypothetical question about a theoretical dog who was an international supreme champion or a national champion -- a dog of undisputed superior working ability.  

No Eileen, I can't buy this. I posted the pedigree in the first few comments on this thread. Mark knew, he knew who we are speaking of. 

I had hope that the HEF would care more about genetic health versus diversity. I posted the pedigree of my affected dog yet I wasn't one to be contacted by Denise. I'm not sure if I find that odd or insulting. I sent another email to the HEF 2 months ago I've heard crickets. This dog will never make the high-volume breeder list in the US, seeing as how high volume stud dog owners are never called to the table. I'm all for genetic diversity but what good is that going to do us when our genetics are defective? Has the HEF even thought of speaking with the Collie, Sheltie or Aussie folks? Every time a point is brought up all I get is "does that act like a dominant"? this is nothing like any of the other DNA markers that we have found. Once again, this one is different. Washington state deems one bad copy affected. Why the HEF is trying to avoid/rewrite is curious. 

 

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Since two of you are “hung up” by my statement quoted above.......

The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape beliefs and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, exploring definitions and seeking to characterize general characteristics shared by various particular instances.”

Question: would you ban an international champion if it were mdr1 m/n?

The answers to this question provide information on what level of breeding restrictions the community wants put in place.  Is the community that is promoting and preserving the working ability of the breed willing to exclude proven exceptional working dogs because of this genetic mutation.

I have frequently used this method in threads on this forum.

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Hi Betty,

I think the experiences that you have shared are very interesting and I would like to continue to hear more about TG offspring who have anything “off” even if it’s not something the owner or vet can easily put their finger on. From a vet’s perspective, I think further investigation needs to be done on this population of TG Texan dogs.  Karen, has Peat shown any abnormalities?

Instances like this are one reason I tend to shy away from the Flavor of the Month studs, but OTOH it can bring to light new and important information. Thank you for writing, Betty. I had not heard about this over in the TX dogs as I don’t travel out that way.

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Hi Emily,

No, so far Peat has been fine. Extremely careful though with what she's exposed too.  

It's not so much "flavor of the month" in my case. I have a stake in this as far as my name is on the pedigree of this litter. I own the dams dam and grandsire (both tested normal). I pulled some favors and got the only bitch in the litter, hoping to stem this flow on this litter at least.  This was prior to testing and prior to Tanhill Glenn being the flavor of the month. 

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Karen, glad to hear about Peat! It makes you wonder if there is an environmental factor compounding the MDR1 status of the dogs. I mean, just to hear that a whole litter has had several dogs with weird medical problems all within the first year of life is enough to make me say hmmmm. Even if they weren’t MDR1 carriers/affecteds I’d want to look into that further! Maybe you or Betty could tell us if there are other sibs or half-sibs NOT in TX who are having problems? Or are the non-TX dogs sub-clinical like Peat? 

Betty, a question for you from the other thread: did Hogan have nystagmus before or after receiving any pre-medication or anesthetic for his neuter?

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One in Idaho, doing fine. One in Montana fine as well. Neither are amounting to much though. I anticipate pet home on the horizon for one. Norm has the other for training, don't know anything else on him. Both tested normal. One in Missouri, had issues but is apparently good now. Kristen Reiker has him, Waylon. He appears to have just had coccidiosis. Tested normal. The other may still be puny. Another in Louisiana, has had issues off and on, looks to be OCD shoulder now, grand pup. Interesting to see you grouping it..yep, there's been issues, sporadic, and weird, in many.

Not Betty, but I'm pretty sure the video of Hogan was pre anything for his surgery.. though I think he had a Nexguard in the prior few weeks.

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Can we please also possibly update or clean up the pinned post in this section "which heartworm is safe.." quite a bit of incorrect, outdated and misleading info on that thread. We can no longer claim 0 Border Collies have the mutation.

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Go review the information posted; there are several posts indicating the presence of the allele (look up the definition if you don’t know) at low frequencies in border collies from several studies.  The discussion was on how the dogs were assigned to a breed in those studies.

[Test methods used in studies can impact how to interpret the results.  This continues to be important when looking at the results of genetic studies which is why it is important to read the original publication as opposed to a summary prepared by the general press.  In the case of genetic association studies it is very important to scrutinize how the individuals were assigned a phenotype to which the genetic data will be correlated.]

Historically people (including Vets) thought border collies were just as impacted by this disease as collies which is why the information provided was controversial for the general public.

The information on the safety of heartworm preventatives (at the prescribed dose) continues to be accurate and in agreement with the information on the WSU website.

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Nice snark Mark, very nice. 

 

First post:

"12/12/07 Katy Robertson at UCDavis reports no pure bred Border Collies found with the mutation; the number of tests being run has decreased and few additional Border Collies have been tested. (edited by MarkBilladeau)"

 

This is no longer true. I made no reference whatsoever to HW above. The thread does incorporate MDR1 as quoted above. 

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You don’t think readers will comprehend that quote with the associated date (2007) may not reflect what is known in 2018 or some future date?

You would prefer we change the historical records?

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I would prefer that when a JQP opens it they see the most relevant, correct information first, especially that it's now 10 years later and we do have the mutation in the breed.  Updating information - I didn't view as changing historical records seeing as how you have numerous updates in there to begin with. However, if you would rather leave it outdated and wrong, that works for me. 

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History is not wrong, it is simply a record of what was known at that time.  Clearly you understand this since you pointed out the updates that were also posted.

 

Instead of nitpicking historical posts you should have proposed pinning a link to the HEF health page at the top of this section.

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That would have done no good, you'd have found fault there as well. Besides, linking to the HEF doesn't tell people that read the HW thread that the mutation does exist in the breed. 

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So? What's your point? The *historical* thread as you'd like to call it has bad/outdated/wrong information. Obviously you're fine with leaving that up and not updating it, which you had previously done. That's fine, I am coming to expect bad information in areas from some. 

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13 hours ago, Journey said:

Can we please also possibly update or clean up the pinned post in this section "which heartworm is safe.." quite a bit of incorrect, outdated and misleading info on that thread. We can no longer claim 0 Border Collies have the mutation.

There is no "incorrect, outdated and misleading info" on the thread about the thread's subject, "Which Heartworm Preventative is Safe for My Border Collie?"  There are several dated statements noting that the MDR1 mutation has not been found in border collies as of the date specified.  While those statements were correct when they were posted, the post has now been edited with an update that gives the current status.

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I'm late to the party. Was directed here by a friend after she learned I had a Tanhill Glen daughter. I have not, but will have her tested for this mutation as a result of this thread. At 8 months, she's perfectly healthy with no behavioral issues. Have put her to sheep a few times and she's showing me some class.

While the genetic side of this discussion may be worthy, the denigration of Tanhill Glen as a sire based on working ability and prepotency is not, in my opinion. I bought my pup after seeing a son that I liked very much and because I had faith in the bitch. My pup will either make it as a working dog or not, which is the same thing I've said about every pup I've started. I've put some very well bred pups into hobby and pet homes. It's the downside of multiple births, don't you think?

To criticize how this dog runs is to assume that all handlers are equally talented. An utterly silly hypothesis. My experience with purchasing trained dogs is that it takes every day of a year for them to begin to approach their potential with me. One of mine wouldn't take a flank off me for the first 3 months I owned him and got lost on the OR in the beginning more times than I care to remember. I never lost faith in him and he was one of the bravest, most powerful dogs I've ever owned. It took him time to shift from one type of handler, weather, sheep, terrain, flora and fauna. EVERYTHING was different for him, especially my whistles no matter how hard I tried to make them sound like what I heard on the recorder.

So, why do you judge a dog negatively based on his performance with an inexperienced hand? And how long was the dog in the hands of the person who ran him at the BG before he struggled there? There's a back story here and there always is.

I'm not saying it's the case with Tanhill Glen, but very good dogs can go very bad in the wrong hands. I see them at every trial I go to. So you say "well he can either lift sheep and move them on the drive or not." And I say how is he being trained and handled at home? I've seen very powerful dogs unable to use it because of they way they were handled. And if you haven't, you're not paying attention.

Welcome to our sport, Mr. Drake. My strongest recommendation is to ignore the haters...

 

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Thanks for testing Amelia. I hope your pup is normal.

 

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