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Lyrically_Speaking

New Here and Looking For Possible Advice

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Hey Hey,

 

Kilo and I would first off like to say thanks for welcoming us into this wonderful community. Kilo is my first BC and is 4 months old.

 

post-20809-0-31956100-1522444088_thumb.jpg

 

He's a joy to have and I'm learning as much from him as he is from me everyday. It's been a learning curve, but he's nearly house-broken, he knows MANY basic tricks (Sit, Down, Paw, Other Paw, Roll-over), and I'm working on introducing him to the Halti.

 

Before anyone says anything in regards to my choice to keep him as a companion pet, I have done my research and am aware of the high energy and drive behind this breed as well as their needs to be worked and mentally stimulated. Also, I am a (almost graduated) Vet Tech.

 

Currently our schedule looks like, as I'm in college (well exam time for 2 more weeks):

 

Morning (upon wake up at 6:30-7:30am)

  • a 10-15 minute walk outside to get him a chance to use the bathroom
  • he gets his breakfast in a Kong Gyro treat puzzle ball while I eat my breakfast and get ready for class
  • 5-10 minutes of trick training/practice
  • in crate with frozen peanut butter to top the rest of his breakfast in a standard puppy Kong. (I don't leave till almost 8-9)

Lunchtime (12-1pm)

  • 20-30 minute walk
  • break from crate to play fetch or play with toys and cuddle
  • 2-3 baby carrots in crate for afternoon

Early Evening ( following class at 4-5pm)

  • 1 hour + of walking and fetch/run in a fenced soccer field depending on weather
  • Dinner in Kong Gyro
  • Training of tricks
  • Play throughout the evening
  • Bathroom breaks as required throughout the night

Before Bed (9:30-10pm)

  • 20-30 minute walk for bathroom and to wear off any last energy
  • crate at 10:30pm (he tends to sleep through the night fine)

I'm just here to see what else, as I'll be out shortly for the summer, I can do with him or teach him. I'm interested in getting him the Jolly Ball Egg to kick around our backyard at home with my parent's dog (12 year old miniature cockapoo). Also, I'm looking to get into running again this summer (a knee injury threw me off track this past year) so that I'm back up to par for next summer to start running with him (so that he doesn't over-stress his growing joints) and I'm looking to build him an agility course also to start next summer.

 

Currently,m we are working on the stay command, not chasing my cat (2 year old tuxedo cat) and, as I said, slowly working on integrating the Halti so we can progress to having him focused and WORKING while we are on walks.

 

This schedule seems to work best for us both, but I'm up for any additional thoughts on providing added enrichment.

 

Thanks from both of us,

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Hi there, and welcome to you and your extremely cute puppy.

 

May I ask why you are using a halti?

 

If I were training a puppy to walk nicely on leash, I would never use a halti to do it. Loose leash walking, leash manners, heel, all of these things are much more effectively trained with a simple collar and a huge amount of persistence and patience.

 

If you "train" with a device like a halti, your dog will clearly know when it is not on him and may act very differently. Much better actually to train the correct behavior, so that your dog will walk properly no matter where, when, or on what leash or collar.

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Oh, I didn't answer your question about activities.

 

Google dog tricks, and teach him anything you want. KIKOPUP has especially good ideas and YouTubes for training good tricks. Look into Musical Canine Freestyle, and other dog sports. The sky's the limit with border collies. I am very glad you are going to be careful with his growing bones. :)

 

Also, remember that you can actually give him too much activity, and thereby create a dog who needs to have tons of activity all the time. Downtime is just as important for a dog at any age.

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Hi there, and welcome to you and your extremely cute puppy.

 

May I ask why you are using a halti?

 

If I were training a puppy to walk nicely on leash, I would never use a halti to do it. Loose leash walking, leash manners, heel, all of these things are much more effectively trained with a simple collar and a huge amount of persistence and patience.

 

If you "train" with a device like a halti, your dog will clearly know when it is not on him and may act very differently. Much better actually to train the correct behavior, so that your dog will walk properly no matter where, when, or on what leash or collar.

 

I was told to use a halti to improve leash manners and to train him to work and focus while on the leash, he pulls like a mad man when on his flat collar (standard and while on a body harness...

 

Any suggestions?

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Oh, I didn't answer your question about activities.

 

Google dog tricks, and teach him anything you want. KIKOPUP has especially good ideas and YouTubes for training good tricks. Look into Musical Canine Freestyle, and other dog sports. The sky's the limit with border collies. I am very glad you are going to be careful with his growing bones. :)

 

Also, remember that you can actually give him too much activity, and thereby create a dog who needs to have tons of activity all the time. Downtime is just as important for a dog at any age.

 

We have lazy days too, like any dog and owner... to be fair though this schedule is only this way so as to get him the enrichment he is lacking in his crate while I'm in class. I'll be extra mindful of that.

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D'Elle has excellent suggestions about additional activities. There is so much information available now on what to do and how to do it with regards to training your pet. Kikopup is a favorite on Youtube.

 

I agree 100% with D'Elle also about the halti. If you take the time to teach proper loose leash walking or heeling, you should not need a halti - which IMHO is a crutch for people who don't have the knowledge or patience. But it can take A LOT of time and patience, particularly when distractions are added in. Consider checking out Youtube videos for leash walking also. And if you are able, many people recommend Denise Fenzi's online classes. To pay for a class to learn techniques to train leash walking (even if you just audit) may very well be worth every penny.

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D'Elle has excellent suggestions about additional activities. There is so much information available now on what to do and how to do it with regards to training your pet. Kikopup is a favorite on Youtube.

 

I agree 100% with D'Elle also about the halti. If you take the time to teach proper loose leash walking or heeling, you should not need a halti - which IMHO is a crutch for people who don't have the knowledge or patience. But it can take A LOT of time and patience, particularly when distractions are added in. Consider checking out Youtube videos for leash walking also. And if you are able, many people recommend Denise Fenzi's online classes. To pay for a class to learn techniques to train leash walking (even if you just audit) may very well be worth every penny.

 

Okay, so you would recommend training him on just his standard collar and teach loose leash walking that way???

 

I'm getting conflicting information at every turn. The trainer I was speaking with told me to stick with the body harness and then switch to a martingale for classes in 6 weeks, as he's at that in between point where he's too old for the first level class and too young for the next level classes, so that he can be transitioned to loose leash walking on a standard collar.

 

This other lady elsewhere, with whom I spoke, tells me that this is a BAD idea and that I should use a HALTI... he HATES the HALTI. he rubs at his nose and just isn't pleasant to walk, however he pulls like a crazy man on the body harness. I'm afraid that if I walk him on the standard collar, I will hurt his neck, but I would aim to teach him loose leash walking.

 

I'm still looking into behavior classes for when he is able to be entered into them (at 21 weeks), is it worth getting a martingale collar now to train him on prior to these classes?

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As far as lead training goes, I found that at about 16 weeks, Xanthe began to seriously forge. This after 8 previous weeks of no problems at all on the lead.

It simply started one day, and no amount of patience, commands or rewards seemed to curtail the behaviour. Our vet recommended what's called an easy walk harness. Rather than a nose piece, this one clips the lead onto the breast, which nudges a forging pup toward you and softly impedes her shoulder movement.

 

Literally within minutes, Xanthe was back to her previous pattern of heeling, with no discomfort. After about a week, we introduced her to a long lead (a reel type) which she was able to use with little to no problem with tugging.

 

Every so often we go back for a walk with easy lead as a sort of intermittant reinforcement

 

It looks like this

post-20820-0-21929200-1522471136_thumb.jpg

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There's some speculation that Easy Walk harnesses can cause shoulder problems, which is one reason there's been such an explosion in other types of no-pull harnesses since then. (Though none it seems really stop pulling for some dogs, which is why training is a far superior approach.)

 

Many dogs hate Halti type head harnesses. I was just working with someone doing her supervised therapy dog visits. The dog, a Lab, is overly enthusiastic when greeting people at first and she's had him on a head harness that he obviously detested. We met up to practice calm greetings and it quickly became apparent that the head harness was causing much of the problem. He was frantic in his desire to get it off and it was escalating his excitement level unbelievably when he was meeting strangers. We took it off and he was immediately a different dog and much more relaxed. He still needs some work with calm greetings but the simple act of removing the head halter took his excitement level down about 20 notches.

 

And if you're concerned about hurting your pup's neck, not to mention other issues, you might be interested in this article https://suzanneclothier.com/article/problem-head-halters/

 

Here's another relevant piece by the same trainer: https://suzanneclothier.com/article/guidelines-teaching-self-control/ There are tons more on her website and I think her book Bones Would Rain from the Sky should be required reading for every dog owner.

 

For loose leash walking you might also consider looking at H. Shirley Chong's excellent tutorial: http://shirleychong.com/keepers/LLW/ Again, there's a lot of great stuff on her website.

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He does hate the Halti, I did my research and he's now on a prong collar. At first I was iffy on this decision, but after a small one was put around my wrist for demo I realized it wasn't as barbaric as it may look.

 

He pays attention and it's curbing his car-chasing too... I think many people are just uninformed about the benefits. I mean, he almost got creamed by a pick-up earlier this week when he managed to pull the leash free of my hand.

 

So to me, a prong collar that provides a second of correction (I had a trainer recommend it and show me how to properly fit it and use it) is a safe bet than having him hit in traffic or hurting my shoulders and back by letting him DRAG me.

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Well, I'm firmly with Jovi in the belief that things like special equipment like prong collars, head halters, etc. are far too often excuses for not putting the effort into real training.

 

Your puppy's only 4 months old. How can you possibly have put the sustained effort into real training to get the results you want in such a young puppy? How can you even expect to achieve the desired behavior in a puppy so young? It's just not a realistic expectation. I'm not asking these questions to be confrontational, but to ask you to step back a moment and think about your interactions with a still very young puppy and the effects they'll have on him in the long run.

 

And IMO you seriously risk damaging your relationship with your dog by using such punitive measures on a puppy of such a tender age. People should be working towards developing cooperative relationships with their dogs, not adversarial ones. Would you treat a human toddler that way?

 

You list animal behavior and psychology among your interests. It seems to me that you're approaching both of these from a pretty outdated perspective. You -- and especially Kilo -- would benefit from looking into some more advanced research and methodologies.

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Glad you went with the prong collar. Used correctly it can be a life saver!

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Glad you went with the prong collar. Used correctly it can be a life saver!

 

Thank you for your support. I appreciate it and I realize the uproar I may receive at my decision, but it has been made.

 

Well, I'm firmly with Jovi in the belief that things like special equipment like prong collars, head halters, etc. are far too often excuses for not putting the effort into real training.

 

Your puppy's only 4 months old. How can you possibly have put the sustained effort into real training to get the results you want in such a young puppy? How can you even expect to achieve the desired behavior in a puppy so young? It's just not a realistic expectation. I'm not asking these questions to be confrontational, but to ask you to step back a moment and think about your interactions with a still very young puppy and the effects they'll have on him in the long run.

 

And IMO you seriously risk damaging your relationship with your dog by using such punitive measures on a puppy of such a tender age. People should be working towards developing cooperative relationships with their dogs, not adversarial ones. Would you treat a human toddler that way?

 

You list animal behavior and psychology among your interests. It seems to me that you're approaching both of these from a pretty outdated perspective. You -- and especially Kilo -- would benefit from looking into some more advanced research and methodologies.

 

Prong collars are not the barbaric and terrible crutch that you are making them out to be. For more info look here: http://solidk9training.com/2012/06/14/prong-collars-are-lifesaving-and-humane-training-tools/

 

Frankly, they provide a short (1-2 second) correction, which is rather humane in comparison to many halters on the market. In fact, if fitted and used correctly, they provide no harm and are rather safe.

 

 

Halti harnesses are designed to sit under the eyes (a VERY sensitive/eggshell-like area), Body harnesses with back-clips encourage them to pull (hence why they are used as training aids for SLED dogs), front clip body harnesses can cause back issues, choke chains have no stop to their choking potential, etc.

 

I have tried all of the above, except the choke chain, the back clip body harness as the main method for 6 WEEKS, 2 WEEK trial of the Halti, etc.I have tried the "walking in opposite direction approach", the "be a tree" approach, and anything else I could find.

 

That being said, all halters and leads have their pros and cons. I am just using what works for me and my puppy, I'm aware that as he progresses other methods may work better, but for now this is the one that is working and i think it's more humane to use a prong that gives mild and short correction than to watch him start heaving and pulling at the body harness to get at cars (chronic car-chaser) or to have him rubbing his nose raw on a Halti.

 

As I previously mentioned he was almost creamed at 4 months by a pick-up truck BECAUSE, like it or not, he is a 25ish pound pup that pulls like a 100 pound pup on the leash. Thus, this could be a, quite literal, lifesaver for him.

 

This is a tool to use to train loose leash walking so that, when we go to classes in a few weeks it will be possible to slowly transition him to a standard buckle/flat collar.

 

So, while i appreciate and respect your differing opinion, unfortunately I will be sticking by my choice of what will benefit me and my puppy most.

 

With love,

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I use a prong collar on one of my dogs. Because training consistent loose leash manners is low priority for me but I still want to take her hiking off property sometimes.

 

Yes, its a crutch. But, for that situation, Im fine with using a crutch. I can get a great focused heel in training and short walks but not for 30-60 min on a hike.

 

Yes, it is aversive to an extent. But its not as aversive for her as leaving her home or making her pay attention to me and keep the leash loose the whole time. Her tail is up, her eyes are happy, she can do her own thing withough pulling me.

 

IMO, understand why youre using it, the limitations, the potential issues and risk vs reward. Then see how your dog responds and go from there.

 

Now, all that said, I would be seriously working on the car chasing. Thats pretty severe for a dog that age. Sarah Stremming has some good resources for over arousal including a worked up class, theres Dr Overalls protocol for relaxation and also the Control Unleashed Puppy program book - a google search will help you find each. Id would definitely be focusing on that type of stuff in his training time

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To the OP:

 

There is no possibility, given how young your puppy is, that you have even come close to giving kind and humane (and effective) methods of training a reasonable time to work.

You cannot expect a puppy of that age to know how to walk on a loose leash. You are only just starting the training. Why do you want to use something which can hurt him, which at the very least will cause him discomfort (isn't that what the prongs are for?) or that he hates, such as the halti.

 

Please give more kind methods a chance first. There are so many good, effective, and gentle ways to teach this, and you are bypassing them all and going for the big heavy-handed approach from the start. In my mind, that is the wrong approach.

 

Sometimes a prong collar or other tool is useful. But it should only be used if every other more kind and gentle technique has already been tried for a long enough period of time ( months, at the very least) to show that it will not work. Even then, you use the mildest correction that you can that will be effective, and the prong collar is not mild, despite what you may have been told.

Even the best trainers won't have most 4 month old puppies walking perfectly. But they will take the time and effort and have the patience to teach them, they won't put hurtful devices on them.

 

Your dog is only a baby. Don't use a prong collar on him.

Take the time and effort to train him properly.

Your relationship will be so much better if you do. You want your dog to WANT to be with you, not to stay with you because doing anything else causes pain or discomfort.

 

Please go to YouTube and look up how to train loose leash walking with positive reinforcement and do your dog a favor and do that instead. You will be glad you did and more importantly, so will your dog.

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This. I don't need a 4 month old puppy to be an obedience champ. At 4 months old, my pups drag me wherever because they are like toddler children. If I don't like them forging, I may shorten the lead and walk with a light stick, and just swing it gently pendulum-style in front of my legs. The pup gets tired of bonking his nose on the gently swinging stick and corrects himself.

Also, if the pup is pulling THAT HARD, I'd consider where I'm taking him. If he's so completely over threshold that he can't think and pulls like a Kenworth, maybe he doesn't need to be in that situation yet. Maybe he's over-stimulated and just can't think. Do we want to fry their brains at toddler age by asking them to behave like adults? Or do we want to just let them grow and mature until their minds are able to absorb lessons of restraint and calmness?

It's not fair to put a pup in a situation that's overwhelmingly exciting and then try to correct him for reacting to it. If a place or situation sends him into orbit, don't take him there for a while. Let his brain grow up.

It's a 4 month old puppy. Let it be a puppy. Raising a dog is a marathon, not a sprint and border collies are not bred to be shoved into pigeon holes of behavior before their joints are even closed.

At 4 months old, I'm happy if my puppy will come when called, sit when asked and sleep through the night. That's it.

Last but not least, Lyrically, are you incorporating plenty of down time in that schedule? Are you making sure your pup has enough time alone to just quietly play with his toys and hang out without interaction from you? An "off-switch" is invaluable to a young border collie.

 

 

To the OP:

 

There is no possibility, given how young your puppy is, that you have even come close to giving kind and humane (and effective) methods of training a reasonable time to work.

You cannot expect a puppy of that age to know how to walk on a loose leash. You are only just starting the training. Why do you want to use something which can hurt him, which at the very least will cause him discomfort (isn't that what the prongs are for?) or that he hates, such as the halti.

 

Please give more kind methods a chance first. There are so many good, effective, and gentle ways to teach this, and you are bypassing them all and going for the big heavy-handed approach from the start. In my mind, that is the wrong approach.

 

Sometimes a prong collar or other tool is useful. But it should only be used if every other more kind and gentle technique has already been tried for a long enough period of time ( months, at the very least) to show that it will not work. Even then, you use the mildest correction that you can that will be effective, and the prong collar is not mild, despite what you may have been told.

Even the best trainers won't have most 4 month old puppies walking perfectly. But they will take the time and effort and have the patience to teach them, they won't put hurtful devices on them.

 

Your dog is only a baby. Don't use a prong collar on him.

Take the time and effort to train him properly.

Your relationship will be so much better if you do. You want your dog to WANT to be with you, not to stay with you because doing anything else causes pain or discomfort.

 

Please go to YouTube and look up how to train loose leash walking with positive reinforcement and do your dog a favor and do that instead. You will be glad you did and more importantly, so will your dog.

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I use a prong collar on one of my dogs. Because training consistent loose leash manners is low priority for me but I still want to take her hiking off property sometimes.

 

Yes, its a crutch. But, for that situation, Im fine with using a crutch. I can get a great focused heel in training and short walks but not for 30-60 min on a hike.

 

Yes, it is aversive to an extent. But its not as aversive for her as leaving her home or making her pay attention to me and keep the leash loose the whole time. Her tail is up, her eyes are happy, she can do her own thing withough pulling me.

 

IMO, understand why youre using it, the limitations, the potential issues and risk vs reward. Then see how your dog responds and go from there.

 

Now, all that said, I would be seriously working on the car chasing. Thats pretty severe for a dog that age. Sarah Stremming has some good resources for over arousal including a worked up class, theres Dr Overalls protocol for relaxation and also the Control Unleashed Puppy program book - a google search will help you find each. Id would definitely be focusing on that type of stuff in his training time

 

My pup, Kilo, is a very happy and focused dog on the collar, tail wagging and happy eyes. He gets excited when he sees the collar and associates it with "walkies". Would he associate something cruel and hurtful to an excited tail wag and sit in preparation to go out if it hurt him? NO... I've seen dogs terrified of martingales, haltis,etc before and that is NOT their reaction. (I love your above description of your dog on the prong ^^^)

 

This is also my thinking, this way he doesn't drag and, while it may not be the "gentlest way" of training leash manners, which aren't as important at the moment as curbing the car-chasing (which the prong is reliable at aiding with).

 

Border collies are active breeds and require the exercise and mental stimulation, frankly; which is worse an upset and bored dog who is left home all day and stuck inside as his owner DREADS walking him OR a happy and SAFE puppy who enjoys his walks?

 

Thank you for the judgement-free and rather supportive comment ^^^^^.

To the OP:

 

There is no possibility, given how young your puppy is, that you have even come close to giving kind and humane (and effective) methods of training a reasonable time to work.

You cannot expect a puppy of that age to know how to walk on a loose leash. You are only just starting the training. Why do you want to use something which can hurt him, which at the very least will cause him discomfort (isn't that what the prongs are for?) or that he hates, such as the halti.

 

Please give more kind methods a chance first. There are so many good, effective, and gentle ways to teach this, and you are bypassing them all and going for the big heavy-handed approach from the start. In my mind, that is the wrong approach.

 

Sometimes a prong collar or other tool is useful. But it should only be used if every other more kind and gentle technique has already been tried for a long enough period of time ( months, at the very least) to show that it will not work. Even then, you use the mildest correction that you can that will be effective, and the prong collar is not mild, despite what you may have been told.

Even the best trainers won't have most 4 month old puppies walking perfectly. But they will take the time and effort and have the patience to teach them, they won't put hurtful devices on them.

 

Your dog is only a baby. Don't use a prong collar on him.

Take the time and effort to train him properly.

Your relationship will be so much better if you do. You want your dog to WANT to be with you, not to stay with you because doing anything else causes pain or discomfort.

 

Please go to YouTube and look up how to train loose leash walking with positive reinforcement and do your dog a favor and do that instead. You will be glad you did and more importantly, so will your dog.

 

As I said, this is being used as a tool (or crutch if you'd prefer) to help me reach our goal of loose leash on a flat-collar. You may not agree with this choice and that's fine, but I live next to a busy 80km highway in my college town and the fact he's weaseled out of 2 different harnesses in attempt to get to cars, only once returning when called and the other time almost creamed, makes the car-chasing and potential for a premature death if NOT curbed ASAP a larger priority for me than social acceptance by all and loose leash walking.

 

This. I don't need a 4 month old puppy to be an obedience champ. At 4 months old, my pups drag me wherever because they are like toddler children. If I don't like them forging, I may shorten the lead and walk with a light stick, and just swing it gently pendulum-style in front of my legs. The pup gets tired of bonking his nose on the gently swinging stick and corrects himself.

 

Also, if the pup is pulling THAT HARD, I'd consider where I'm taking him. If he's so completely over threshold that he can't think and pulls like a Kenworth, maybe he doesn't need to be in that situation yet. Maybe he's over-stimulated and just can't think. Do we want to fry their brains at toddler age by asking them to behave like adults? Or do we want to just let them grow and mature until their minds are able to absorb lessons of restraint and calmness?

 

It's not fair to put a pup in a situation that's overwhelmingly exciting and then try to correct him for reacting to it. If a place or situation sends him into orbit, don't take him there for a while. Let his brain grow up.

 

It's a 4 month old puppy. Let it be a puppy. Raising a dog is a marathon, not a sprint and border collies are not bred to be shoved into pigeon holes of behavior before their joints are even closed.

 

At 4 months old, I'm happy if my puppy will come when called, sit when asked and sleep through the night. That's it.

 

Last but not least, Lyrically, are you incorporating plenty of down time in that schedule? Are you making sure your pup has enough time alone to just quietly play with his toys and hang out without interaction from you? An "off-switch" is invaluable to a young border collie.

 

 

 

To answer this and the other comments, I will continue to look into and peruse through as much information as I can get my hands on and yes he gets his down time (I'm a college student who needs time to STUDY for EXAMS).

 

I HAVE worked with 2 different trainers and tried to get his brain focused on anything but the cars. No backyard, so sidewalks are my only option.

 

I'm doing the best with what works for my dog and our circumstances at the moment.

 

Thanks,

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This. I don't need a 4 month old puppy to be an obedience champ. At 4 months old, my pups drag me wherever because they are like toddler children. If I don't like them forging, I may shorten the lead and walk with a light stick, and just swing it gently pendulum-style in front of my legs. The pup gets tired of bonking his nose on the gently swinging stick and corrects himself.

 

 

 

 

Why do you feel it is different/better for a puppy to be self corrected by getting hit in the face with a stick than it is to be getting self corrected by a prong collar?

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Why do you feel it is different/better for a puppy to be self corrected by getting hit in the face with a stick than it is to be getting self corrected by a prong collar?

Thank you for stating my thoughts EXACTLY!!! ^^^^^^

 

SMACKING A DOG IN THE FACE WITH A STCK??? seriously???

 

Everyone has their own method that works for them and their dog, but I don't see how a stick to the face is any better than a prong.

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SMACKING A DOG IN THE FACE WITH A STCK??? seriously???

 

Everyone has their own method that works for them and their dog, but I don't see how a stick to the face is any better than a prong.

 

I'm not Gloria and I'm interested in her answer to this question (which, btw, is not the same question Maralynn asked). Gloria is one of the most level headed members of these Boards and it's unlikely that she's advocating "smacking the dog in the face."

 

I'm guessing that she's not deliberately aiming the stick at the pup's face. She's swinging the stick in front of her, much like a blind person would with a red tipped white cane. The idea is that the dog will learn to pay attention to their position relative to the person they're walking with and not forge out ahead. When the dog bumps into the stick (not being deliberately smacked with it!) as it forges ahead, it teaches them to pay attention to where they're going, and specifically that they're not running out ahead of the person. It's a lot like a pup learning to pay attention when it's running through the woods or an open field to be watching for obstacles in its path so it's not running willy nilly into trees, branches or other things in its path.

 

Gently (the key word missed in your reading) swinging the stick or crook is a method sheepmen and -women have been using for generations to teach their dogs to pay attention to their positions and walk respectfully with their handlers. Remember that these dogs are rarely on a leash, yet they have to be able to be calm, collected and in control at all times while at the same time thinking for themselves. Learning to pay attention on their own to where they're going, what they're doing and where their handlers are at all times is far preferable for a working dog than to be led around by a leash. There are no leashes in the pastures, on the hills or in the barns of a working farm. They make the dog useless.

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Dear Doggers,

 

I hate tools. If they didn't need somewhere to hang their IDs mine wouldn't wear collars. That said, I will use any tool except sentimentality to bring my dog and I into a proper mutually enlightening relationship. This is easier done than redone and involves one principle: Mean what you say. The flip side is, of course: Don't say too much.

 

. Car chasing is ALWAYS fatal and must be retrained with whatever tools as you prevent it with whatever tools.

 

Fixing this will require a correction and probably several. The OP probably won''t have the timing and should seek a working/hunting/stock dog/traditional trainer for help.

 

Your pup is very young:enjoy each other

 

Donald

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I know what Gloria means, it's not exactly what y'all think..not even close.

 

Use the prong, use it with a second flat collar. As time goes you'll see improvement and steps backwards. Training never ends.

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I absolutely totally agree with what others have already said about it being completely unreasonable to expect a 4 month old puppy to have perfect leash manners, and that it is going to take some fair, consistent, long-term training before you will have a dog that will reliably walk politely on a leash in all kinds of circumstances. By all means use whatever gentle, kind methods you feel are effective to teach your dog this essential skill. But, in the meantime, pup needs exercise. Unless you have nearby access to a decent sized absolutely safe securely fenced area, that means he's going to have to be walked on a leash before he has developed the maturity and self control and skill to do it without pulling. There's nothing mutually exclusive about using a prong collar to manage a determined puller/lunger/forger while also doing the long term teaching (not to mention allowing him to mature enough to develop some self control) necessary to have a dog with good leash manners. True, lots of people who use prong collars or halti's or easy-walker harnesses never do end up teaching the dog how to walk nicely on leash because they are satisfied with managing the problem rather than spending the time training (and there's nothing wrong with that), but that doesn't mean you can't do both if a well trained dog is your goal.

 

The beauty of a prong collar is that as long as you don't snap the leash to create a correction, the dog is totally in charge of whether he gets corrected or not. If he doesn't like the feel of the collar tightening around his neck, all he has to do is stop pulling. His choice. I really don't see anything unkind about this. It is true that this alone won't teach your dog not to pull on the leash. Pretty much every dog learns pretty quickly when the prong collar is on and when it isn't, so if you truly want a well trained dog you will still have to put in the training time, and that can and should be as fair, gentle, kind, patient, and consistent as you can make it. But the prong collar will allow you to exercise your dog in the meantime, without him continuing to practice an annoying and potentially dangerous habit, and without you having to spend all your abundant disposable student income on physical therapy for your back and shoulders.

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Why do you feel it is different/better for a puppy to be self corrected by getting hit in the face with a stick than it is to be getting self corrected by a prong collar?

 

 

I'm not smacking the dog in the face. I'm not hitting the dog. I'm using zero force. The stick is just idly swinging in front of me. The dog bumps into something and the thing is the correction because it's mildly annoying. A prong collar IS the correction and the dog knows it comes directly from you.

 

I train my dogs for work and trial. I have worked with and around some of the best in the business. I have never seen a prong collar used by the sheepdog trainers or handlers I know. In fact, I've seen trainers tell students to take them off and stop using them.

 

But if people want to rely on the same training training techniques a German shepherd or Rottweiler might receive, so be it. A prong collar on 4 month old puppy? This is me, over and out.

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