Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 I just wanted to pop my head in for a moment. I printed this thread out, but have only read the first five pages (to the place that Denise replies to Bill(s). Since my comments will probably be redundant, I'll keep it short. One thing regarding "ethics:" meta-ethics is a term that describes the critical consideration of large scale ethical systems. John Stuart Mill's utilitarianism is an example of a modern ethical system. Recently, ethical systems have been increasingly interwoven with epistomological systems (theories of knowledge) and metaphisical systems (theories of reality). Denise is probably more up on this because current ethical debate is often centered around technological and scientific developments. My sense is that many Americans make decisions of right and wrong according to an altruistic ethical view. As I recall, Altruism requires the ethical decision maker to act so as to create the greatest good for the greatest number. In this view, such a utilitarian decision would be bad only when it is unjust ie the decision would not or could not be applied to all people equally. Genetic defects,contracts, working instinct and ability... these seemingly modest issues are actually at the cutting edge of current ethical debate. There are no simple, formulaic answers. When this is the case, I prefer to evaluate individual decisions as better or worse given specific situations rather than to categorize decisions as right or wrong by reference to general overarching principles. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Hey, the "real" Sue - "We have dogs bred for working in tough conditions, trials dogs, hobby dogs and then The Rest." I'm very familiar with dogs that are too hard to trial bred to trials winners - I've got a Hartford Logan bred dog that's the son of an International Winner bred to a female that was WAY too hard to trial...I've seen her, and she ain't pretty - but the work gets done well... Sue, most of us here in the states aren't ignorant of the various ways "the breed" has been bred - some of us, myself included, think some of the best qualities of these dogs is going down the tubes by breeding for anything BUT the best dogs - big terrain dogs, thinking dogs, that can "clean a hill" of anything and everything without being babysat... Even under the best conditions, in my mind, these dogs won't turn out incredible workers all the time..."It's hard enough to get good 'uns from good 'uns" without breeding for lesser dogs that are more "controllable", "more sensitive", less "pushy", etc... In any litter from these dogs you can find a continuum of "abilities" and character traits that fit some situations better than others - without specifically breeding for those "other" traits...this is where your example of a flyball dog comes from - I have absolutely no problem with unsuitable (for what I consider herding) dogs going to "pet" homes...in fact I've got a 2 year old here now I'm trying to find a home for - you need a wonderfully tempered, frilly, small tricolor with a huge grin - who will probably make a good beginner's dog but not an open dog? By the way, she aspires to sleeping on the couch... I agree there are huge variations amongst the dogs - but breeding for "the best" will NEVER hurt the breed - breeding for lesser abilities ALWAYS will hurt the breed...no matter if there is a market for these dogs or not... Part of being an ethical breeder, to me, is helping people find the right dog for thier situation - I'm actually finding myself arguing against selling the dog mentioned above to somebody who wants her... As far as "gene pools" go - I find,as my expreince grows, that there are actually very few dogs that I like and would consider breeding...so in my mind, the gene pool is shrinking rapidly... I've seen National Champions pushed off a trial field by sour blackfaces - and ones that are so loose-eyed I wouldn't give you $20 for 'em... And if you are reading that I don't think we should take into account genetic problems - then you should probably reread what I've written... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 06-19-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Just a quick reply... I seriously don't see any harm in breeders who don't breed for hill work, trial work or even farm work AS LONG AS THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHICH DO...AND ENOUGH OF THEM. The explosion in the number of Border Collies in my experience has been phenomenal but there are still enough dogs around to satisfy all those who need a dog to earn a living. I haven't heard anyone complaining much that the standard is dropping among these dogs. There may not be so many of the really hard dogs bred but then apparently there is not the need or someone would fill it. Now let me be straight and say that my experience is largely the UK and Europe. What the situation is out on the range in the US may be completely different. Hey Bill, if you want some tough dogs, ring Ray Edwards in the UK and get some semen sent over!! (his dogs', not his..(g) Lest it be mistaken, I do believe that Border Collies should work and in an all perfect world, all of them should work well. But it just isn't like that in reality and the best we can do is make sure our own corner is as good as it can be. That means no interbreeding with The Others,good record keeping and lots of information from breeders to customers. Oh, and the courage for a breeder to say "no" to a request to purchase if the customer isn't the right kind. I agree with much of what Bill says, but the world moves on and we have to find ways through the new order in order to protect the old order. IYSWIM... (g) Sue in France Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 I have a laundry list of questions that came to me as I read through this thread: 1) I just read a story about a working border collie who had been sold at least three times before she clicked with her current handler. My impression is that herding dogs are sold and resold fairly often? Is this common practice among ethical breeders? 2)Donald McCaig's account of Wiston Cap was to me the telling of a tragedy. If McCaig's account is accurate, to say that Wiston Cap was bred unethically is a monumental uderstatement. As an alcoholic myself(recovering some 20 years now) I will not lay sole responsiblility for the scandal at Jock Wilson's door. What are the responsibilities of the community to great dogs like Wiston Cap? 3) Wiston Cap brings another concern to mind: shouldn't any discussion of ethical breeding address the issue of popular sires? It is my understanding that a sire like Wiston Cap can appear hundreds of times in the distant generations of a pup's pedigree. Am I correct in believing that frequent, distant ancestors can present a sort of genetic timebomb for the breeed as a whole? 4) The complicated question of popular sires seems to me to bring us square up against the issue of inbreeding. Do folks think that the degree to which inbreeding is practiced should in large part determine the degree to which breeders should be expected to track offspring, health test, cull, openly share information and so on? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 06-20-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 Margaret, Border collies are among the least inbred purebred breeds of dogs today. We're striving to keep it that way by refusing to allow passing fads from distracting us from our single purpose. As important as Wiston Cap is to the breed, he is not a popular sire the way some show ring dogs are popular sires. His direct influence was fairly limited geographically, so by the time his genes were flung far and wide, they were carried by his grand- and great-grand-offspring. Whether the way he was purported to be bred was ethical or not, I'll leave to others to judge. It was a different time and place, and the stories about shepherds lining their bitches while Richardson drank in the pub -- if true -- could also be interpreted as the mark of a great dog. They knew what they were breeding to, even if they were being sneaky about it. McCaig is a wonderful, knowledgable writer, but like all writers, he has a flair for the dramatic. With regards to a dog being sold two or three times before finding an owner with whom things click, I would think an ethical breeder would much rather have the dog out working than ending up in a shelter or being returned. Personally, I hope that I'd always be able to track the pups, but that's mainly a function of who buys them and how likely they are to keep in touch with you. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 Margaret, Some dogs will get sold more than just two or three times. I have no problem with that at all,it is far better than finding the right dog/handler combination than having to luck horns with the dog,worse yet,not use him only because the match is totally unsuitable. However,once the match is there,the team work is a site to be reckon with. Funny thing about this breed,they bond with whomever is willing to send them to gather sheep very fast,yet no amount of pats in the head or sharing a bed or best treats in the world will make them care or acknowledge another human being. On the subject of ethical breeders in UK,most likely the shepherds bred the kind of dogs they could use,those they didn't need or dog didn't work,a lead in the head behind the barn took care of them fast. This may make most Americans cringe at the idea of ruthlessly culling,but left to any Moe & Joe in US,we sure wouldn't have these dogs. We would have ended up with Sue Barta's idea of ethical breeding practices. Make babies for fun and games while accepting PayPal. I use another working breed called Akbash dog,strickly a livestock guard dog. Shepherds,for thousands of years managed to take out many things out of this breed,while retaining their ferocous barks and a tremendous dislike of other canine species while keeping them very maternal and submissive to stock. Here in US,they've started to breed them as pets yet hardly anyone really understands them as a breed. They are nocturnal,as pets in city homes,they bark all night long,they are dragged around to be socialised with other dogs and humans where originally they were culled for those very same reasons. I could go on and on about the ethics of the yesteryear breeders vs. today's. In the past,they were bred because the animals were needed to take care of their masters needs,today they are bred to deposit checks in the bank. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 22, 2002 Report Share Posted June 22, 2002 Inci and Bill Thanks for the replies. I am finally home to stay after running back and forth from beach to suburb. It just struck me: just like you guys talk about working border collies and their non-working cousins as being different breeds, I think that there are real breeders (ethical, responsible, experienced, committed etc.etc.) and there are various sorts of puppy producers. A real breeder is just like a real, working border collie in that both are scarce and valuable. I truly, deeply love Contracts! Not so much as legal documents (although they can serve that purpose on occasion) but as an expression of the breeder's values. My contracts on the terriers are usually less than one page, but I try to compose them so that they cover everything that I hold near and dear with regard to my dogs: -The buyers agree that they understand the particular needs of the russell and that they will care for the pup appropriately -If and when the pup is registered they agree to register with the JRTCA and not with an all-breed registry. -The pup is fully guaranteed regarding health and temperament. -I also include the right of first refusal: if they move the terrier on, they must offer it to me first. With this contract, I hope I make it very difficult for puppy buyers to take something of mine and put it into a situation where it will end up on the street or in a shelter. When I felt like it was taking too much away from my family for me to put this contract on my puppies, I stopped breeding litters. For me, if you bring a life into the world you are responsible for its well-being. I'd have to say that all considerations are secondary to that responsibility in my book. I guess I would even have to say that the working character of the breed would come second to this obligation. So, I would rather sell a pup to a pet home where it will be valued and cared for than to place it in a working home where I it will be neglected or misused. When a dog contributes to my work, to my prestige, to my experience of life... well I think my obligation to it increases concurrently. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 06-22-2002).] [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 06-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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