Jump to content
BC Boards
jbridges

Heads up Savannah

Recommended Posts

Bit of a tangent, but I just got home from doing an elementary school assembly with Bodhi about dogs. There was a police K-9 officer there with his young working, certified police police dog, a stunning GSD from Slovenia who looks nothing like the ACK show GSDs. His back was straight, as well as his back legs. It was refreshing to see

 

I know a gorgeous German shepherd dog who came to her owner sight unseen as a puppy from a breeder in Missouri . :blink:

She has beautiful conformation: straight back, nice deep chest, strong legs, rich coat. She is intelligent, playful, energetic, and sweet. I would take her home with me in an instant. At age 2 she has had not a single health issue. She is AKC registered.

Go figure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very common for GSDs in the US to be registered with the AKC. And there is a very clear split between working and show lines. In that breed it's not AKC registered vs. another registry but rather how the line of dogs are bred.

 

It's like Border Collies - once you're in that breed loop, you can find the good working ones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am so glad to hear that, Maralynn. Far too often I see the horribly crippled kind, and it makes me so heartsick to see them that I have to turn away, can't even look at or go up to greet those dogs.

 

A working bred German shepherd is a thing of beauty. Those crippled show dogs are pitiful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The split in German Shepherds was American vs European when I had my two (1990s). Some GSD people did refer to the American dogs as AKC dogs, initially. However, people still registered their German dogs with the AKC. There was not any stigma to it that I'm aware of. Like the previous poster said, it was about lines, not registration.

 

To confuse matters, many of the German dogs that were being imported were from German show lines, but they were still considered superior to the American dogs, because they had to obtain working titles in order to be considered breeding quality. I don't like the exaggerated 'roached' topline of the German show dogs. I think it illustrates the point that breeding for show tends to ruin dogs, regardless of the dogs' country of origin.

 

If you want a good quality GSD, you need to go with European working lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sue: You said the Border Collie wasn't recognized by the AKC when you were a kid. It was recognized by AKC when I was a kid, but it was stuck in the miscellaneous group then. I think people did AKC obedience with their registered Border Collies. There wouldn't have been enough dogs in the breed ring to garner any points, even if you tried to build your own major (and a ring with all border collies might be suspect). It's too bad they didn't stay in the miscellaneous group.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sue: You said the Border Collie wasn't recognized by the AKC when you were a kid. It was recognized by AKC when I was a kid, but it was stuck in the miscellaneous group then. I think people did AKC obedience with their registered Border Collies. There wouldn't have been enough dogs in the breed ring to garner any points, even if you tried to build your own major (and a ring with all border collies might be suspect). It's too bad they didn't stay in the miscellaneous group.

 

The miscellaneous class (not "group," which is an ACK designation for categories of dogs bred for similar purposes) breeds are not eligible for registration by the ACK. It was, and is, a category for breeds that have not been fully recognized.

 

During the period we're referring to, most breeds in the miscellaneous class were actively seeking full recognition and ACK registration. Border collies were the exception; we were not looking for full recognition (we had our own registries), but wanted the option to obtain an Indefinite Listing Privilege (ILP), which allowed them to compete in performance sports. Competitive obedience was the only sport sanctioned by ACK at the time. We were happy to remain "parked" in the miscellaneous class, and the ACK didn't push the issue.

 

After the Dog Wars, the ACK changed their policies, no longer allowing border collies to remain indefinitely in the Miscellaneous Class with no move to become a recognized breed. In fact, they created the Foundation Stock Service (FSS) for breeds in the Miscellaneous Class to move towards full recognition. AFAIK, all breeds in the Misc. Class are now FSS breeds.

 

They also discontinued their ILP program in favor of their current Purebred Alternative Listing (PAL) program, though the two names seem to be interchangeable at times. It allows purebred dogs of registrable breeds to participate in most ACK events, excluding, of course, conformation.

 

It is indeed too bad ACK wouldn't allow border collies to remain in the miscellaneous group. It seems that many of their changes to that group and the PAL/ILP program came about as a result of our efforts to maintain the status quo.

 

ETA: I'm not sure how (or if) breeds in the current Miscellaneous Class can compete in non-conformation sanctioned performance events, of which their are now many. I'm sure there's a way, but I haven't kept up with that type of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the correction, Gentle Lake. I hate to spread misinformation and apologize for that. As many years as I spent exhibiting in the breed ring, you would think I would have known that LOL!

 

 

ETA: I did know what a group was and what it's for; I spent a bit of time competing in a couple of them. It is logical that Miscellaneous would not be considered one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentle Lake said: "Competitive obedience was the only sport sanctioned by ACK at the time".

 

Actually, AKC was sanctioning hunting field trials as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentle Lake said: "Competitive obedience was the only sport sanctioned by ACK at the time".

 

Actually, AKC was sanctioning hunting field trials as well.

 

You're right. My bad. Thanks for the correction!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may or may not have been the case in the 80's and 90's, but here is a link to the .pdf of AKC's Rules Applying to Dog Shows. Dogs in the Miscellaneous class (you're right; not "group") are allowed to compete in conformation events as long as they have an AKC identification number. You can see for yourself in Chapter 3, pg. 17 (Section 22). There may be special awards/rules for them but they can compete in conformation. It makes sense. Why would AKC wait until a breed is fully recognized to start molding them into cookie-cutters?

 

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RREGS3.pdf

 

 

ETA: Just to clarify, an identification number is not the same as a registration number, since these breeds are not eligible for full registration, as Gentle Lake said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentle Lake said: "Competitive obedience was the only sport sanctioned by ACK at the time".

 

Actually, AKC was sanctioning hunting field trials as well.

 

And tracking,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to shut up now about what events were or are sanctioned by ACK. :lol:

 

I divested myself from any interest in ACK events within 2 years of getting my fist border collie (and I was preaching breeding for work and not appearance that entire time*), when I decided to use him for what he was bred for and started raising sheep. I never looked back, and by the time the Dog Wars were underway I'd developed such animosity for the organization that I never really paid attention to what they were doing or not doing, beyond their plans to railroad border collies in so they could attempt to reinvent the breed. :blink:

 

But thanks for the corrections. I always prefer to be accurate and always appreciate it when people correct my mistakes. :)

 

*I'll never forget one time we were at an obedience competition and a woman walked up to me to tell me what a beautiful dog I had. "I love border collies," she said. "It's such a shame they don't have a standard."

 

I was flabbergasted. "We do have a standard," I replied. "But it's a working standard, not an appearance standard." I tried to explain the difference to her, she she couldn't get her ACK addled head around the concept. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*I'll never forget one time we were at an obedience competition and a woman walked up to me to tell me what a beautiful dog I had. "I love border collies," she said. "It's such a shame they don't have a standard."

 

I was flabbergasted. "We do have a standard," I replied. "But it's a working standard, not an appearance standard." I tried to explain the difference to her, she she couldn't get her ACK addled head around the concept. :rolleyes:

 

I had somewhat of the same experience this week on Facebook.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had somewhat of the same experience this week on Facebook.

 

Holy crap! This week?

 

The conversation I related happened in the early '80s. It's sad to think there's been so little progress in 35 years.

 

Sometimes (often actually) I despair for the human race. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like the ABCA has been added to the Chatham County Animal Services list of approved registries.

 

http://animalservices.chathamcounty.org/Portals/animalcontrol/Registry%20Requirements.pdf

 

It looks like it was updated 5 days ago:

http://animalservices.chathamcounty.org/Search-Results/Search/registries

 

Registry Requirements.pdf...
Updated: 5 days ago
Source: Documents

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone will have to ask for it to be added.

My initial concern wasn't 'who do and who don't' as far as registries go. It was to inform people about the rather draconian laws that get passed, sometimes with the best of intentions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy crap! This week?

 

The conversation I related happened in the early '80s. It's sad to think there's been so little progress in 35 years.

 

Sometimes (often actually) I despair for the human race. :rolleyes:

Me, too, GentleLake.

I had that same interaction not long ago with someone who kept insisting that "even dogs bred for working performance should have a standard that makes them all look alike".

 

I found it impossible to get it through that person's thick skull that such a thing is anathema to selecting for working qualities. Cannot select for both. cannot. Cannot. But that person just couldn't get it.

 

I gave up pretty quickly, as I knew I was talking to an ACK dog breeder. Not a Barbie collie breeder, not even a working dog breeder. But it is as if they have all been brainwashed or something. It's scary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had my Celt and Megan at the pet food store one day, back when they were both probably about a year or two old. Both are pretty "classic" - black and white with tradition markings, medium rough coats, Megan with tipped ears (set by her previous owner) and Celt with sort-of airplane ears. A woman asked what they were crossed with as they were not purebred Border Collies. I said they were purebred but working-bred not show-bred. She disagreed and said they must be cross-bred. The store owner chimed in that they were working-bred, and purebred, but that working-bred Border Collies did not tend to look like show-bred or even have any sort of consistent look because they were bred for work, not looks. She continued to disagree and tell us we were both wrong because she knew what a Border Collie should look like and neither of mine did.

 

So, in spite of my knowing Celt's mother and father in person, and having his pedigree; in spite of having Megan's pedigree; in spite of anything the store owner or I could say, this woman knew better than either of us and that was that, because she'd seen Border Collies in shows (like Westminster) and mine obviously were not purebred since the ones in the shows obviously were, and they did not look the same.

 

This was not the first time I had a purebred dog (the other was a farm-bred Airedale bitch, not registered but purebred) that someone knew better than I did, and told me so, because my particular dog did not fit the cookie-cutter mold of the show world.

 

What is it about a little knowledge being like a razor in a monkey's hand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rabbithole is even deeper Sue, I had a discussion with someone who said that a dog (whatever breed) cannot be purebred when it doesn't have papers. Even when both the dog's parents are registered pure bred dogs ( to be clear, of the same breed ;) ). She went so far to say that such a dog can't be called that breed....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're two fairly distinct sets of dogs. What you see at conformation shows have no intensity or Eye. What you see at Trials bears little resemblance to the conformation dogs. Both types' fanciers need however to face the common enemy. If we do not unite against the animal rights movement we will fall, separately or together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rabbithole is even deeper Sue, I had a discussion with someone who said that a dog (whatever breed) cannot be purebred when it doesn't have papers. Even when both the dog's parents are registered pure bred dogs ( to be clear, of the same breed ;) ). She went so far to say that such a dog can't be called that breed....

Obviously an expert! Just like the guy who insisted Celt was a BC crossed with a Greyhound, and he's not even my lurcher-looking dog!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...