Jump to content
BC Boards
Tommy Coyote

Another needless dog attack

Recommended Posts

Tommy Coyote says: "But according to my neighbors who own 2 pits these are just the most loyal, loving dogs on the face of the planet."

 

They are... Until they're not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was told by my vet to not buy dogs from people that won't let you meet the dam and sir or see their living conditions. She says quote that if you breed an aggressive dog chances are you are going to get an aggressive dog it's not always how you train though it makes obviously a big difference it is what their genetic characteristics are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we get rid of this idea that dogs need to meet and be friends, you can and should pet every dog you meet, or that you have the right to let your dog over to every other dog?

 

I was at a busy dog event with my two, everyone was doing fine, they were at one stage lying asleep under a tree in the middle of a crowd of people and dogs sitting down. When other dogs barked or freaked out, they just looked at me for guidance.

 

But one person's dog, for whatever reason, just spooked them a little. It was choking itself straining at the end of the lead to get to all the other dogs and it may have been the grunting choking noise that was worrying them.

 

So I looked around, saw what was worrying them, and moved out of the way. The woman and her dog approached us. I walked rapidly backwards saying "Oh sorry, we're not saying hello today, could you give us some space please, excuse me, please give me some space, no seriously back off, stop following me, what the fuck is wrong with you Jesus Christ!"

 

Yes, it was all one sentence. All while holding out my hand in a 'stop' signal and backing away with my dogs. So even if she was deaf, there was no excuse.

 

She, meanwhile, chased us through the crowd with her manic dog saying "Oh, go say hello to the dog, go say hello!"

 

At this point we were backed up against a concrete wall and my dogs were sitting behind me. The more nervous dog decided that obviously this wasn't working as an approach and jumped out and snarled and barked. In fairness to her, her approach worked better than mine. The woman pulled back her dog, stood there for a moment staring at us, and walked off. I cursed at her again as she left. I'm not normally one for swearing, but there are times it just seems necessary.

 

Be careful about 'pits' attacking people on the news- if it's a labrador that attacks someone, it sounds a bit better if it's a 'pit' .

 

So many of these things just seem stupidly avoidable. I have terriers. If I had recently adopted a terrier, and was bringing it to another dog's house, when that dog is elderly, I would muzzle it or introduce first in a neutral situation. Dogs are dangerous, or have the potential to be so. So you exercise basic caution. If you can't hold your dog and it's sometimes aggressive, you muzzle it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh my Simba what a horrible situation I would be livid! People have no common sense that could have turned dangerous and resulted in all of you getting hurt if your dog decided it needed to protect you guys while sensing your being uncomfortable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But then it hits the news that two pits who never showed any previous tendency toward aggression just attacked and killed a grandchild."

 

No signs of aggression that the owners recognized. So often, most owners completely fail to recognize the clear signals their dogs are giving. It's rare for me to meet people who can genuinely read dog behavior.

 

Sure, most of these dogs are not Am Staffs, but many are bully breed mixes. Generally the Kansas City area shelters label bull breed crosses as Lab mixes to make them easier to adopt. Some of the local towns actually have breed bans in place. Other owners want Lab mix listed on the official paperwork because their homeowners insurance won't cover any bully breeds.

 

Most of the bully cross dogs seem pretty amicable. However, the ones who are aggressive are downright terrifying. When they commit to biting it's dead serious.

 

I think you are up against the issue of 1) high drive plus 2) poor impulse control and 3) extreme determination. They were bred to be tough, "gamey" dogs and they do have a very different style of fighting than most other breeds. Obviously, each individual dog is different. Just talking breed tendencies here (like saying BCs tend to want to chase moving objects).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to defend journalists here. I hear so many 'fur baby' advocates (and that isn't directed to anyone here) lamenting the media portrayal of certain breeds, but it seems to me a good percentage of these advocates are lifting their talking points from the Donald Trump manual of media management. You can find just as many knee-jerk justifications in the media for certain 'unfairly maligned' breeds.

 

I don't doubt sensationalism and misidentification occur, but judging from the multiple reports I've seen, they occur considerably less frequently than the accusations imply. One should always vet their sources and corroborate stories, but I think in general that (actual) journalists do the best they can to report accurately.

 

After so many years of being maligned for sensationalism and misidentification, journalists who report these attacks are getting smart. The breed or breed type is supplied, but often with the source of that information provided. Many times it is the offending dog's owner who identifies the breed or type. Also, news outlets are posting photos of the attacking dog or dogs (cue "nobody can identify a breed x").

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we get rid of this idea that dogs need to meet and be friends, you can and should pet every dog you meet, or that you have the right to let your dog over to every other dog?

 

Amen to that!

 

My dogs come with me to work each day (I work at a large university). There's a strict leash law on campus. I'm good with that. The other day we were walking in from the parking lot, the three dogs walking nicely on leash, when suddenly a small Westie, off leash, comes roaring up to us, growling and yapping its fool head off. We stop, and I look around for the owner, preparing to boot the terrier to the other end of campus. Then I see a woman come running up. "Are your dogs friendly?" she says.

 

Well. HERS clearly isn't. My dogs are giving it the "WTF??!?!" look, not sure how to react. I simply told her to leash her dog, and then explained that you should NEVER let a dog off-leash approach dogs on-leash.

 

Of course, two days later, we ran into her again - her dog still off-leash.

 

Too many dog owners are idiots, purely and simply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I now take a photo of the offending dogs and their human. I then inform said human to leash their dog before I call the police. It's the closest I've found to a reliable method of getting people to actually listen and obey the law. I started this after being knocked over multiple times by loose dogs on the bike trail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS, new neighbor's weiner dog dug under the fence and got into my yard. My dogs couldn't decide what they were supposed to do with it; herd it like a cat or invite it to play ball. Owner is very lucky my dogs are not aggressive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liz, what a grand idea!!! I'm absolutely doing this next time. I'm also informing the owner that I'm submitting the photo to campus police.

 

Tired of idiot dog owners...

 

I now take a photo of the offending dogs and their human. I then inform said human to leash their dog before I call the police. It's the closest I've found to a reliable method of getting people to actually listen and obey the law. I started this after being knocked over multiple times by loose dogs on the bike trail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My dogs were playing tug of war with a yorkie thst came in that came in under my fence. Fortunately for the yorkie, I was right there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with off-leash dogs is that so many people are 100% sure that their dog will not harm a fly up until the very instant the dog 'breaks character' and attacks another dog; or worse, a child. I know there are people who do have their dogs trained to a high degree. The problem is, most don't. I would much rather have a leash culture in place to deal with the ones who don't. Idiot dog owners ruin it for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.dogsbite.org/?gclid=CNv5rpKL6NMCJQEGaQod3cqACwQ

 

This site has a whole lot of information on dog attack statistics. It advocates for the victims.

 

This is scary stuff but I do think people need to be aware of the facts so that they can take appropriate action to protect themselves, their families and their dogs from attacks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.dogsbite.org/?gclid=CNv5rpKL6NMCJQEGaQod3cqACwQ

 

This site has a whole lot of information on dog attack statistics. It advocates for the victims.

 

This is scary stuff but I do think people need to be aware of the facts so that they can take appropriate action to protect themselves, their families and their dogs from attacks.

This is great info. I like how it has a description for most cases and what percentage of attacks were to the known breed. Reading through it is horrific but it is the reality of the situation. It's horrify that most cases are small children and family pets.

My husbands mother has a pit bull that they raised from a puppy..that bit a little girl because she was petting him while he was eating. It was one of her daughters friends. He also was begging for food and growled at my 1 year old because she was standing next to him not even touching him. My 5 year old daughter is no longer allowed to spend the night there because of him. My mother in law has stated before that she is scared of having my baby around him. My husband doesn't think he would bite her but I do.

He has bit her husband as well because he wanted to lay down on the bed with my mother in law and he is a 6+ ft. Man and over two hundred lbs. if he has the balls to bite him multiple times what's going to stop him from attacking one of my kids NOTHING! I don't trust it and I'm not going to put my kids in danger. She still asks my five year old to have sleep overs but we kindly decline but I can tell she gets mad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is probably a good idea. So many of the attacks were on children.

 

There were just 2 more attacks. An 82 year old lady and her dog were killed in OKC. And a 6 month old baby was killed by a family pet.

 

The risk just isn't worth it. All it would take is one incident and you would lose your job, everything you own and spend years in jail. Not to mention having to live with what happened. Can you imagine if your dog killed your six month old baby? Your life would just be over because you could never live with that.

 

It's not worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So not worth it.

My husband works with a man who's pit bull just bit his 6 year old daughter about 4 months ago and she had to get 12 stitches in her face tithe guy took his do out back and shot it right after. And I know it's not just pit bulls but they are doing most of the attacking you can't fight the proof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with bully breeds is that when they do bite it is catastrophic. In one of the examples on the dogsbite site it took 3 grown men, a crowbar and a gun to get the dog off the little girl and even after it was shot it kept coming.

 

And that attack was unprovoked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here it's collies (generic border collie types) who cause horrific injuries and accidents, and cocker spaniels. Cheap undervalued dogs, seems to be. I'm not convinced it's a pit bull thing. It's huskies in Canada.

 

Don't try to tell me that collies don't do this crap. I've seen too many people with horrific permanent scars from unprovoked attacks. I mean serious maulings. In some cases they basically had to half-kill the dog to just get them to stop attacking (strangled the dog to unconsciousness just to get it to let go of the person's leg). I think they really should be a dog you take some kind of a test to own.

 

I've known about 4 pit bull breed types, lovely dogs. I've known lots of collies and at least half of those bit humans to the point that you could not be around them safely as a stranger no matter what you were doing. I mean 'standing quietly with your arms crossed over your chest, averting your gaze, with the owner there' would get you bitten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simba you're right I was just on the topic of pit bulls at the Moment and I also agree you should have testing people to be worthy of owning a dog. I also think you shouldn't be able to breed what so ever without a license but people do it anyways. I knew quite a few nice pit bulls (never had a problem with the breed itself just was reading the statistics) and have known some herding breeds that were viscous as well. But we also have a problem with people being in denial of their dogs aggression no matter what breed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simba, I know someone with a Border Collie who has attacked multiple dogs. I would not put it past him to bite a human either, though he lives in a 10 x 10 pen now so doesn't have much opportunity. As the person who choked him to stop one of the attacks on another dog, I can tell you he was determined to not let go until he was dead. He simply was not large enough to cause life threatening damage though, just punctures and bruising.

 

His half brother was euthanized for biting multiple people. Another half brother has a reputation. I hear plenty of stories about other close relatives. People keep breeding these lines though and fail to inform the puppy buyers.

 

I had a collie type mix foster dog. On the way from picking him up from his former owners he broke the dog seat belt he was wearing and tried to grab my arm. I called the rescue group about this. They thought I was making it sound worse than it was. His behavior scared me. True dominant aggressive dogs are rare. He was one. He attacked one of my other dogs once and tried to attack him several other times, breaking out of crates and through doors to go after him. He tried to attack me in my living room, but one of my dogs intercepted him, grabbed him by the neck and prevented the attack. I made it clear that I was done, he needed to be euthanized. The rescue BOD took him and had a meeting about his fate. At the meeting he mauled a volunteer. Only then was he euthanized.

 

I have zero tolerance for this. Zero. There are far too many good dogs in the wold to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them. I don't care what breed it is.

 

Seven years ago a dog bit me on the face, fracturing my skull in multiple places where the canines entered my nasal sinuses. By some miracle, all the teeth missed my eyes. Carefully placed sutures minimized the scars. I still have problems with my sinuses as a result of that bite. Last year a dog bit my hand, breaking a finger. It still doesn't feel right, the joint cracks loudly all the time and it aches quite a bit. One of my own dogs has been attacked multiple times and has PTSD as a result. I think you can understand now why I am tired of the excuses people make about their "friendly dog" that would "never bite anyone."

 

Here is some interesting reading for you. Dr. Ian Dunbar's bite scale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simba, I know someone with a Border Collie who has attacked multiple dogs. I would not put it past him to bite a human either, though he lives in a 10 x 10 pen now so doesn't have much opportunity. As the person who choked him to stop one of the attacks on another dog, I can tell you he was determined to not let go until he was dead. He simply was not large enough to cause life threatening damage though, just punctures and bruising.

 

His half brother was euthanized for biting multiple people. Another half brother has a reputation. I hear plenty of stories about other close relatives. People keep breeding these lines though and fail to inform the puppy buyers.

 

I had a collie type mix foster dog. On the way from picking him up from his former owners he broke the dog seat belt he was wearing and tried to grab my arm. I called the rescue group about this. They thought I was making it sound worse than it was. His behavior scared me. True dominant aggressive dogs are rare. He was one. He attacked one of my other dogs once and tried to attack him several other times, breaking out of crates and through doors to go after him. He tried to attack me in my living room, but one of my dogs intercepted him, grabbed him by the neck and prevented the attack. I made it clear that I was done, he needed to be euthanized. The rescue BOD took him and had a meeting about his fate. At the meeting he mauled a volunteer. Only then was he euthanized.

 

I have zero tolerance for this. Zero. There are far too many good dogs in the wold to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them. I don't care what breed it is.

 

Seven years ago a dog bit me on the face, fracturing my skull in multiple places where the canines entered my nasal sinuses. By some miracle, all the teeth missed my eyes. Carefully placed sutures minimized the scars. I still have problems with my sinuses as a result of that bite. Last year a dog bit my hand, breaking a finger. It still doesn't feel right, the joint cracks loudly all the time and it aches quite a bit. One of my own dogs has been attacked multiple times and has PTSD as a result. I think you can understand now why I am tired of the excuses people make about their "friendly dog" that would "never bite anyone."

 

Here is some interesting reading for you. Dr. Ian Dunbar's bite scale.

Wow lizP I'm so sorry that you have been through experiences like that how awful.

I also wanted to add that I'm greatful for the page that you posted. It is full of very helpful information on bite inhibition which I am currently trying to teach my 14 week old bc/Aussie. Nothing has worked I practiced the methods they talk about and after only one time of doing so she has already showed progress. I know it will take some time and alot of work on my partfor her to get over the human chew toy faze but I am impressed on how quickly she caught on. So thank you thank you thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about pitties is their people.

 

IME, most of the time, they are lovely dogs.

 

But their genetics include a history of dog-dog aggression which sometimes get expressed in dog-people aggression or a gameness that makes them dangerous to small animals. They are certainly not the only breed with that history and potential.

 

But among those breeds, they are the breed most often owned by clueless owners.

 

I have friends with Rottweilers, Akitas, Briards, large sighthounds, etc. These friends are perfectly aware that their dogs might become too protective, or slip over into some predatory aggression. SO they train their dogs, manage their dogs and watch their dogs. I see this with "pedigreed" pittie types, too like Am Staffs or Staffy Bulls.

 

Its the regular pet people who got their dog from the humane society or a neighbor's litter who think that because their dogs were never abused, they could never go after another dog or person. If you just raise them with love, its ok, because dogs that bite must have been abused or taught to be mean.

 

Thus, they let their dog walk right up to my toy breeds all the time ignoring me when I say please, my dogs don't want to visit. They don't train them, they let them run loose, they let them hang unsupervised with kids, or supervise while the kids do stuff that makes the dog uncomfortable. They ignore warning signs, or think "well that mean man must have done something to make my dog growl."

 

These same people like to lecture me on how my Border Collie will chase children if I am not careful because thats what hes bred to do, but they fail to see genetics plays a part in all dogs and all dogs have the potential to bite, especially ones with a history of gameness.

 

I had a student in my advanced obedience class come UNGLUED when after 3 times of her big lug of a pitty mix (100+ pounds of goofy dog) walking up to other dogs in class, I said something to her. She had let him walk up to a Papillon in the facility parking lot and his owner had gotten upset as she had just lost a cat to a stray dog getting into her yard.

 

Her dog was NOT aggressive, how dare I, etc etc. She yelled at me, wrote unpleasant emails, etc.

 

All I did was ask her to be careful she didn't let her dog walk up to people and dogs without their permission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The collie of my childhood had an owner who SAW the dog bite people hard enough to draw blood, repeatedly, unprovoked. I'm not talking "Oh I bent over the dog suddenly and it bit me" unprovoked, I'm talking "The dog crossed a long distance to bite a reasonably familiar child who was standing there silently" unprovoked.

 

"Oh, she's never done that before. "

 

Next time you saw her and you jumped on the table to avoid the dog it would be "I can't understand why you are so afraid of dogs. You have a dog."

 

Edited to add: Liz, I am so sorry, I completely forgot to thank you for the bite scale! It's a good read, something useful to have.

 

Creigowlady and Rushdoggie- well said. I just wish we could have a 'hey these are difficult dogs and you probably should not own them' thing like tends to happen for people who love terriers. Rather than an 'omg these dogs are evil so if you get one you should keep it outside away from everyone and never socialize it and it should be illegal to walk it without a muzzle', which I have seen happen, or 'it's all in how you raise them and you don't need to learn about dog body language or manners'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well simple question then, what would you prefer coming at you in a killer rage, a bordercollie or a staffordshire terrier (or pitbull or cane corso etc etc)?

I for one am rather pleased to live in a country where such breeds are non existent, and with a strict ban on import of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well simple question then, what would you prefer coming at you in a killer rage, a bordercollie or a staffordshire terrier (or pitbull or cane corso etc etc)?

I for one am rather pleased to live in a country where such breeds are non existent, and with a strict ban on import of them.

Wow they are totally banned? In your whole country? My question is and not being rude just wondering if their are less deaths by dogs there.

 

And I think it's a trick question all thoughi I see your point I would not want to get bit or attacked by any breed of dog lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×