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A little rant - neutered? or not?

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Just shaking my head:

 

I just checked Craigslist for border collies (I do this every few months, just because), and saw a listing for rehoming of an middle-aged border collie. The woman found him as a stray about a year ago and admits that he is NOT up-to-date on vaccinations and is not microchipped.

 

But here is the kicker: She doesn't know if he is neutered. Say what???

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Where's the face palm emoticon when you need it?

 

If it makes you feel any better, when Bodhi was transferred from the shelter in KY to the rescue in PA the rescue was surprised when they met the last leg of the transport. They'd been told they were getting a female Aussie mix.

 

Now I can understand the breed mix up; not everyone's breed savvy and he has brindle points, which I assume someone misidentified as merle.

 

But female? Srsly? And he wasn't neutered. :rolleyes:

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Jovi - And I'm thinking she never had an interest in much to do with this dog anyway?

 

Roxanne - Sounds like no one bothered to take a peek while the dog took a leak... ;)

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Or taken the dog to a vet?

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I'm going to play devil's advocate and suggest that perhaps she didn't see testicles but thought he could be bilaterally cryptorchid???? (Not likely, but. . . . .. )

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I would say "unbelievable", but I know that when you are talking about human beings, nothing is unbelievable.

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Once, when I was working as a vet's assistant, we got a cat in to be spayed. She belonged to an elderly couple, and they had had her for quite a while. The cat was examined by the vet, and then placed in a cage to await surgery. Later, she was prepped for surgery - belly shaved - and then, in the surgery, knocked out and tied down on her back. The incision site was swabbed with Betadine and the vet was about to cut when I interrupted him.

 

Standing at the foot of the table I had noticed that the cat was sporting a rather impressive set of testicles.

 

The cat was duly castrated and the elderly couple changed his name.

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Standing at the foot of the table I had noticed that the cat was sporting a rather impressive set of testicles.

And the vet had not checked?? I guess I can understand it since the old couple had owned the cat for a while so he assumed they knew their cat, but it is important to stay on your toes.

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Ha Ha Ha, I love it!!! I work as a Vet Tech and we do have things like that happen. I know to check out the plumbing when the pet is anesthetized. Typically we have "emergency spays" on semi feral cats. The owners are terrified that they will have kittens to deal with, once it is netted and injected and asleep an exam is done and it is found to be a well fed "he" not a pregnant "she."

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I'm going to play devil's advocate and suggest that perhaps she didn't see testicles but thought he could be bilaterally cryptorchid???? (Not likely, but. . . . .. )

 

He'd still have plumbing quite evident on his belly.

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True story:

 

For several years when I was a child, we had a friendly tuxedo kitty. We had him neutered, so we KNEW he was fixed.

 

One day, he disappeared. We figured he was gone for good ... then a month later, he showed up again! Yay! The other cats were all cool with him, dog seemed to know him (she chased strange cats), and he moved right in and seemed to be his old self, albeit with a few new quirks in his behavior.

 

One of those quirks was spraying, which he'd never done before.

 

So we hauled him off to the vet to see if he had a UTI or any health issues.

 

Vet said, "Neutering him will help with the spraying."

 

"... but he is neutered."

 

Nope. Not neutered. And, as the vet observed, they don't grow back.

 

The second tuxedo cat was with us for several years after that. He got neutered in a hurry, though, because of the spraying.

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Guest Side note?

I hope that someday this actually be reasonable -- when dogs undergo vasectomies instead of castration.  End all risk of unintended breeding without the harm to bone density and the depression caused by castration.

But for now, it IS silly that she can't tell.

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I completely agree with you Guest Side note. And I'd prefer ovary sparing spays for females as well.

There are at least a few vets around who do offer both, but until the vet schools actually start teaching the surgeries (WTF?) they'll be few and far between.

I do suppose it would be ideal to have some way to ID the pets who have these alternate surgeries. Tattoos maybe? Similar to how they tattoo the incisions on spays now so the poor dogs don't get opened up again.

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I have a ram that had vasectomy instead of castration.  We were  talked into taking him for free with the ewes we were buying, and we've kept his as he is a really good lead ram :D 

DSC03398.JPG

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Ha! I had him pegged as a wether ( you posted another pic with him in it, the one with the funny captions), because 1. In with the sheep, and 2. His wide growing horns. 

Meant to ask about him, but forgot.

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So wethers with vasectomy grow wide horns?  It's funny because strangers are afraid of Shashlik  who is  very sweet, and they never notice Ramrod whom they should at least watch if not fear.  

 

DSC04390.JPG

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No,  I would not define a ram with a vasectomy as a wether, just like a human with a vasectomy is not a eunuch.

Icelandic rams at least (dunno about other breeds but would think it´s the same) grow slightly slimmer and clearly wider horns than intact rams. I would expect a ram with a vasectomy to grow normal horns, no doubt it is the testosterone that is the factor.

I would be very weary of a ram called "Ramrod"...:D

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I think a lot depends on when the vasectomy is performed, which in his case was when he was still a lamb.  Shashlik has very small testicles, and definitely  does not act like a ram his age would.  All the fully castrated rams I ever had, showed an instant arrest of horn growth upon castration, so I am curious how exactly castration is performed in Iceland (I hope this won't be perceived as hijacking the thread :) ). 

(Concerning Ramrod, and e.g. earlier ram  Rambo, it is very humbling when your safety depends on a 15 kilo dog.)

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If you are talking about a true vasectomy, then the sperm ducts are blocked, but blood supply to the testicals remains intact, and testosterone  production is not affected. Then it should not make any difference when the operation is performed. 

Here in Iceland lambs who come home after the slaughtertime   is finished ("too late") are habitually castrated to be slaughtered as wethers next year. We just pocessed two of ours for home consumption, they were in the dog training group over summer.  Those lambs  are at least 5 months old at the time of castration. Sometimes people castrate adult rams they don't want to use anymore, at least a few months before slaughtering.

The castration method is by burdizzo clamps.

How sure are you an actual vasectomy was done, and not a  burdizzo castration? Your description of Shashlik (great name btw) and his looks do point to a true wether.

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I beg to differ somewhat  :) :  His looks do not point to a true wether because if you remove the testicles the horns stop growing.  Here is wether Mikkey, he is first from your left, next to  Ramzes the ram; you can see little horn buds on Mikkey the size of his 3 mo brother to the right.  

I am wondering how come the horns keep growing with burdizzo  castration, if the testes are supposed to atrophy?   Maybe it really takes a long time? 

I don't know what was done to Shashlik exactly, he has balls, but smaller; he jumps on ewes.  He is very docile towards people.  The main tup fights with him during mating season and Shashlik gives it right back.  But there has been no indication that he has fathered any lambs. 

P1180337.JPG

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I think the explanation is simpler; the breed. Icelandic ewes also have horns ( the majority that is ). 

In a breed where the rams are horned and the ewes are not, I can imagine castration has an stronger inhibiting effect on horn growth than in a breed where both sexes are horned.

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That's a good hypothesis, except you are looking at Shashlik - his horns are actually bigger than those of an intact ram his age, and I talked to his previous owner and it looks like his a result of a failed burdizzo castration, he is still sterile but  probably the blood vessels were not all  damaged.  And skudde ewes don't  have horns, and when surgically castrated rams'  horn growth  is arrested instantly, so within the same breed you have a very drastic difference in horns' reaction to neutering depending on the method.  Very interesting.  

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