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IronHorse

Seeking information about breeder

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ABCA has not "chosen to continue" any dual-registry practices between itself and AKC. AKC chooses to maintain an open studbook, accepting pups/adults who are already registered with ABCA and ISDS (and, perhaps, CBCA). There is no way that ABCA can prevent someone with an animal registered with them from registering with AKC (or any "junk" registry) using the papers the owner has obtained from ABCA.

 

If ABCA were to choose to do the only thing they could to prevent dual-registration, it would entail somehow monitoring every AKC registration to see if they could determine if the AKC-registered animal was also ABCA-registered, which could be quite the nightmare of investigation. That would be extremely costly and time-consuming. ABCA does, at least, de-register any animal that has completed an AKC breed championship and its offspring would not be eligible for ABCA registration, either (I assume they could be ROM'd but that's another issue).

Then explain this, your words, to me "Any pup that is born of ABCA-registered parents, even if those parents are also AKC-registered, can be registered with ABCA".

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GentleLake, I appreciate your input on this thread but it might behove you to go into the archives here and look at some of the threads associated with my past on these boards. in particular you may want to look at the 'My decision' thread started by me. It might be of interest to you.

I have worked hand in hand with several rescue groups in the past and to put it bluntly, was left with a bad taste in my mouth that caused a difficult situation become worse instead of better.

 

Your past posts won't impact my response to your queries about Nightshade. If you have something specific you want to cite, it would make sense for you to mention it here rather than expect me to wade through pages of archived material looking for some unspecified reference. (I did, BTW, look up your "My decision" thread. It sounds like you had an awful experience that I can only guess at from the thread's content, but the thread itself sheds no light whatsoever on the current topic.)

 

If you're not interested in considering a rescue, that's certainly your choice. In my opinion though, it's not a valid rationale for buying a pup from a breeder of questionable ethics when there are other responsible breeders to buy from.

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Gloria,

Thank you for taking the time to expound upon the issue of registration with the ABCA.

I did not begin this post with the intent to become engaged in the politics of registrations although I believe it is a good topic for people to take note of and to understand.

My intent was to ask if anyone had direct knowledge of this breeder due to my research that showed they register both ABCA and AKC plus they dual register.

After being away from these boards for a decade I see that nothing much has changed in regard to the disdain that is shown towards the AKC and the direction that it has taken in its criteria towards it's version of the border collie breed.

I am surprised that the ABCA has chosen to continue the duel registry practices between itself and a registry that they are diametrically opposed to.

It is only my personal opinion but I see this as only diluting the essense of what the ABCA strives for with regards to breeding practices.

 

As i have retired from maintaining stock I no longer am searching for a high energy working dog but I am in search of an intelligent dog and my wife and I adore the border collie breed. So I do believe we shall go and pay this breeder a visit, they may have the pup i am looking for.

 

 

You're welcome, IronHorse. :)

 

I would like to respond to the portion of your post that I have highlighted in bold. That is to say, the ABCA has not "chosen" to continue duel registry practices. The fact of the matter is that they have no control over dual registry so long as AKC is willing to accept ABCA registered dogs into its own registry. The ABCA can't tell AKC "don't do that" and the AKC doesn't tell them when it's done.

 

As we've tried to point out, however, ABCA does not accept dogs who are only registered with AKC into its own registry. An AKC dog cannot be accepted into ABCA registry, unless that individual dog achieves a Registry of Merit (ROM).

 

So, short of de-registering every single ABCA dog that the AKC accepts into its own registry, the ABCA are powerless to do anything about it. And since there is no practical way for ABCA to track whether or not a breeder or owner chooses to register an ABCA dog with AKC, this leaves ABCA with no means of knowing when or if it happens.

 

I hope this clarifies things.

 

~ Gloria

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Then explain this, your words, to me "Any pup that is born of ABCA-registered parents, even if those parents are also AKC-registered, can be registered with ABCA".

 

 

If the parents of a pup are registered with ABCA, then the puppy will be registered with ABCA. That's the simple facts of registry in the ABCA. :)

 

If the owners of those ABCA parents have chosen to also, secondarily register the parents with AKC, the ABCA will have no knowledge of it. There is no AKC registry database to search and no means for the ABCA to monitor where else dogs in their registry may also be registered.

 

~ Gloria

 

 

~ Gloria

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One final note: I have looked at this breeder's site and I see some large red flags.

First, it's clear they are AKC breeders whose breeding stock are chosen for fancy colors. I see only one bitch and one dog who are dual-registered. The puppies they listed seem to vary in price according to what color they are. Why should hair color change the price?

Second, while they proudly list various conformation or performance luminaries in the pedigrees of their dogs and bitches, the animals themselves seem to have no credentials whatsoever other than producing cute, fluffy, athletic puppies. What are they breeding for, if the dogs don't do anything but make puppies?


Third and most alarming, I see no mention whatsoever of health checks. None. What about OFA hip evaluations? What about CEA DNA tests? What about health checks or histories of any sort? The only thing I see is a notation in the Puppy Guarantee that says, "Should the puppy be diagnosed with Canine Hip Displaysia (CHD) or Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA) before its first birthday, Breeder will provide a replacement puppy from a current or future litter."

Whoa. Full stop. If the parents are DNA tested for CEA and matched accordingly, there is no way any puppy will have CEA. If they can't even test their breeding dogs and bitches for that, what else are they not telling us? Have they produced CEA pups in the past? Is there hip dysplasia in their lines? What about epilepsy or other genetic problems?

I would not have any doings with a breeder who does not do health checks on its breeding stock, and whose only criteria seem to be that the puppies they produce will be cute and fluffy. In my view, buyer beware.

Respectfully,

Gloria

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One final note: I have looked at this breeder's site and I see some large red flags.

 

First, it's clear they are AKC breeders whose breeding stock are chosen for fancy colors. I see only one bitch and one dog who are dual-registered. The puppies they listed seem to vary in price according to what color they are. Why should hair color change the price?

 

Second, while they proudly list various conformation or performance luminaries in the pedigrees of their dogs and bitches, the animals themselves seem to have no credentials whatsoever other than producing cute, fluffy, athletic puppies. What are they breeding for, if the dogs don't do anything but make puppies?

 

Third and most alarming, I see no mention whatsoever of health checks. None. What about OFA hip evaluations? What about CEA DNA tests? What about health checks or histories of any sort? The only thing I see is a notation in the Puppy Guarantee that says, "Should the puppy be diagnosed with Canine Hip Displaysia (CHD) or Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA) before its first birthday, Breeder will provide a replacement puppy from a current or future litter."

 

Whoa. Full stop. If the parents are DNA tested for CEA and matched accordingly, there is no way any puppy will have CEA. If they can't even test their breeding dogs and bitches for that, what else are they not telling us? Have they produced CEA pups in the past? Is there hip dysplasia in their lines? What about epilepsy or other genetic problems?

 

I would not have any doings with a breeder who does not do health checks on its breeding stock, and whose only criteria seem to be that the puppies they produce will be cute and fluffy. In my view, buyer beware.

 

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

All good questions Gloria And I sure am not one to shy away from going eyeball to eyeball and asking alot of what you've touched on. I intend on paying this outfit a visit in the near future and seeing for myself what is happening on the grounds.

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If the parents of a pup are registered with ABCA, then the puppy will be registered with ABCA. That's the simple facts of registry in the ABCA. :)

 

If the owners of those ABCA parents have chosen to also, secondarily register the parents with AKC, the ABCA will have no knowledge of it. There is no AKC registry database to search and no means for the ABCA to monitor where else dogs in their registry may also be registered.

 

~ Gloria

 

 

~ Gloria

Thanks, Gloria! I just got around to revisiting this topic.

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All good questions Gloria And I sure am not one to shy away from going eyeball to eyeball and asking alot of what you've touched on. I intend on paying this outfit a visit in the near future and seeing for myself what is happening on the grounds.

 

That is good to hear.

 

I do wish we could discourage you from considering this breeder, however. For anyone like Nightshades to mass-produce border collies with no thought for who they are, what they are bred to be and the hundreds of years of heritage behind them is disturbing. The working instinct is actually a fragile thing that must be nurtured and preserved, or in a very few generations it becomes diluted, weakened and lost. Breeders like these are just producing pretty pets who are border collies in name only.

 

And that, my friend, is anathema to those of us who treasure the working border collie. They deserve to be so much more than diluted, watered down shadows of what they used to be.

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

 

 

 

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I don't get it, Ironhorse. You asked about this breeder, and were given numerous reasons why they are NOT a good choice, with thoughtful, lengthy explanations as to why. You were also referred to two excellent breeders in your state, and you seem to choose to ignore all of that information, as it sounds like you are still planning on getting a pup from this breeder. What am I missing here?

A

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I don't get it, Ironhorse. You asked about this breeder, and were given numerous reasons why they are NOT a good choice, with thoughtful, lengthy explanations as to why. You were also referred to two excellent breeders in your state, and you seem to choose to ignore all of that information, as it sounds like you are still planning on getting a pup from this breeder. What am I missing here?

A

 

Maybe it's a case of when a person has already made up their mind what they want, ask others for opinions, and then ends up using what they had originally decided regardless what advice they get.

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I don't get it, Ironhorse. You asked about this breeder, and were given numerous reasons why they are NOT a good choice, with thoughtful, lengthy explanations as to why. You were also referred to two excellent breeders in your state, and you seem to choose to ignore all of that information, as it sounds like you are still planning on getting a pup from this breeder. What am I missing here?

A

What I had initially asked was, "Is anyone familiar with a breeder located in Kansas that goes by the name of ' Nightshades Border Collies' ?

Not one person who responded to this thread said that they were familiar with or had even heard of this breeder until i had brought it to their attention. What was opined was conjecture based solely upon what is presented on their website. From there it turned into the typical political banter of registries. I totally get the red flags that the site raises but I do not condemn someone on conjecture. I never said that i was planning on getting a pup from this breeder, i only mentioned that I knew someone who had gotten a pup from them a few years ago and I know the dog. I am familiar with good breeders in my area but i am also always willing to expand my options, especially when looking for an animal companion that will most likely be my last dog. I am not a man that makes decisions such as this simply on written words and opinions when i also have the option of physically engaging the proposition. I do believe that this is an outfit that deserves a hands on look and I am planning on doing so. If what they are doing is something that goes against my ethics....well i have no problem rolling up my sleeves and getting dirty in an attempt to rectify or at least voice my opinion eyeball to eyeball. It's not my first rodeo, so to speak.

 

With all due respect

John

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Maybe it's a case of when a person has already made up their mind what they want, ask others for opinions, and then ends up using what they had originally decided regardless what advice they get.

I would not assume such.

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What I had initially asked was, "Is anyone familiar with a breeder located in Kansas that goes by the name of ' Nightshades Border Collies' ?

Not one person who responded to this thread said that they were familiar with or had even heard of this breeder until i had brought it to their attention. What was opined was conjecture based solely upon what is presented on their website. From there it turned into the typical political banter of registries. I totally get the red flags that the site raises but I do not condemn someone on conjecture. I never said that i was planning on getting a pup from this breeder, i only mentioned that I knew someone who had gotten a pup from them a few years ago and I know the dog. I am familiar with good breeders in my area but i am also always willing to expand my options, especially when looking for an animal companion that will most likely be my last dog. I am not a man that makes decisions such as this simply on written words and opinions when i also have the option of physically engaging the proposition. I do believe that this is an outfit that deserves a hands on look and I am planning on doing so. If what they are doing is something that goes against my ethics....well i have no problem rolling up my sleeves and getting dirty in an attempt to rectify or at least voice my opinion eyeball to eyeball. It's not my first rodeo, so to speak.

 

With all due respect

John

 

 

Understood, sir.

 

I do hope you understand that our "conjecture" is based on our collective research, personal observation and practical experience. At no time have any of us doing the conjecture seen a breeder such as Nightshades produce worthwhile examples of the border collie breed. It just doesn't happen. We don't have to know the breeder personally to recognize the type, because they operate the same. Pretty colors, multiple dogs and bitches, pups who vary in price according to color, and no particular accomplishments by either dogs or bitches except the production of pretty puppies, which indicates they are pairing their matings by physical appearance rather than any practical considerations.

 

As I've mentioned, the utter lack of health checks is even worse. Every reputable breeder I've ever heard of at minimum checks the parents' hips and eyes. Perhaps unless one has witnessed the heartache of someone who buys a promising pup only to later discover it has bad hips, epilepsy, blindness, deafness or other congenital problems, one can't really know how valuable those health checks are.

 

But as you are only looking for a pet, perhaps none of that matters. Perhaps the history, heritage and incredible gifts of the border collie are not important to you. Perhaps reputable and responsible breeders aren't a priority, so long as they can give you a healthy pup. I do wish you luck and I hope you end up with a happy, healthy pup who lives a long and well-loved life with you.

Respectfully,

 

~ Gloria

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Hmmm...you ask for opinions and then complain that people have opinions. If you think meeting the breeder is the right thing to do, as you've apparently thought all along, why bother to ask here in the first place? It's odd to me that you come back and then proceed to disparage the folks who thought they were answering your question and, by doing so, being helpful. If you wanted opinions only from people who have been to the breeder or bought dogs from the breeder you could have said so up front and saved everyone a lot of time and effort. Oh, and since you say you're familiar with working dogs, then surely you know they can make great pets even for less active retired people.

 

J.

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Hmmm...you ask for opinions and then complain that people have opinions. If you think meeting the breeder is the right thing to do, as you've apparently thought all along, why bother to ask here in the first place? It's odd to me that you come back and then proceed to disparage the folks who thought they were answering your question and, by doing so, being helpful. If you wanted opinions only from people who have been to the breeder or bought dogs from the breeder you could have said so up front and saved everyone a lot of time and effort. Oh, and since you say you're familiar with working dogs, then surely you know they can make great pets even for less active retired people.

 

J.

Julie, I never asked for opinions with my initial post, what i did ask was, "Is anyone familiar with a breeder located in Kansas that goes by the name of ' Nightshades Border Collies' ?

I have recently come across them in my search for a new pup and saw that they are an ABCA member so I thought I would drop in and see what feedback any of you might have about them."

I fail to see where you believe that it was I who disparaged anyone.

No one said that they knew this breeder or were familiar with them but many, by what they read on their website, felt obliged to give their opinions, which I believe were respectfully taken for what they are worth by me.

Asking for clarification on registration procedures was, perhaps, an issue I should of addressed in a different thread.

Finding the breeder listed on the ABCA high volume breeder page I found it odd that no one here had any knowledge of them.

John

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Given that people here would not be recommending a breeder on that list, I don't find it surprising that no one is familiar with them.

 

I've never run into anything they have bred at meetings, clinics, fun days or trials and I live in the area. Given how many pups they produce, that gives you some clues about their market.

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Julie, I never asked for opinions with my initial post, what i did ask was, "Is anyone familiar with a breeder located in Kansas that goes by the name of ' Nightshades Border Collies' ?

I have recently come across them in my search for a new pup and saw that they are an ABCA member so I thought I would drop in and see what feedback any of you might have about them."

I fail to see where you believe that it was I who disparaged anyone.

No one said that they knew this breeder or were familiar with them but many, by what they read on their website, felt obliged to give their opinions, which I believe were respectfully taken for what they are worth by me.

Asking for clarification on registration procedures was, perhaps, an issue I should of addressed in a different thread.

Finding the breeder listed on the ABCA high volume breeder page I found it odd that no one here had any knowledge of them.

John

 

 

Hello again, John,

 

Well, we have given our feedback and as I've said, we don't need to know the breeder personally to recognize the type. As for what that feedback is worth ... apparently it's not much, as I detailed all the problems with this type of breeder in my last reply. So it's rather frustrating that our collective knowledge about this type of breeder, if not the breeder themselves, is of little consequence.

 

But to clarify, the reason no one here recognizes this high volume breeder is fairly simple. The people who are known and recognized in the working border collie world are not known for the numbers of pups they produce. They are known for the quality of dogs they produce, which may in fact be only bred every few years, and the quality of the work they and their dogs perform.

 

People like Nightshades are not widely known because they don't produce dogs that work and they don't sell to people that work. They might as well be breeding poodles or Irish setters. If Nightshades is known by working border collie people who aren't on this forum ... they would not be known favorably.

 

 

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Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Believe it or not, it has been of aid to me in my decision making.

If i did not respect the breed or the members of these forums I would not bother bringing questions or concerns to them.

 

With all due respects

John

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Welcome to the Boards, Medixon.

The OP on this thread hasn't been back on the Boards for nearly a year and a half since the last post.

If he were still reading the Boards and likely to see this one, I'm guessing he'd be asking for the reasons you've made the claims you did. ;)

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I have a rescue which originated from these guys and although she is a great dog and I love her I would not buy from her personally. She is a high volume breeder, keeps the dogs in dirty environments, and breeds specifically for merles and lilacs. I guess it just depends on what you want, I think people get too caught up in wanting a working dog when they just want a companion. Not to say that I condone irresponsible breeding but if a breeder takes care of her dogs and doesn't false advertise I don't see a problem.

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