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IronHorse

Seeking information about breeder

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Hello Ladies and Gents,

Been awhile since I've visited these boards and thought I would pay a visit along with a question.Is anyone familiar with a breeder located in Kansas that goes by the name of ' Nightshades Border Collies' ?

I have recently come across them in my search for a new pup and saw that they are an ABCA member so I thought I would drop in and see what feedback any of you might have about them.

Thanks

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Hi. Never heard of them (not that I know *all* working bc folks). But in looking at their website briefly, they advertise a LOT of colors and talk about people looking for agility and flyball prospects. Not a breeder I would consider. Period,

A

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Lessee, they tout a lot of pretty unusual colors, including sable merles, which most reputable breeders tend to shy away from since they're not always easily identifiable as merles, which could lead to a merle to merle mating.

 

The seem to be breeding for smaller size also.

 

And they say "All puppies are registered with the American Kennel Club. Some of our puppies are also eligible to be registered with the ABCA." (http://www.nightshadesbordercollies.com/testimonials2.html) I'm not even sure that last is possible if they're already registered with ACK.

 

What was it about this breeder that interested you?

 

I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

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Lessee, the tout a lot of pretty unusual colors, including sable merles, which most reputable breeders tend to shy away from since they're not always easily identifiable as merles, which could lead to a merle to merle mating.

 

The seem to be breeding for smaller size also.

 

And they say "All puppies are registered with the American Kennel Club. Some of our puppies are also eligible to be registered with the ABCA." (http://www.nightshadesbordercollies.com/testimonials2.html) I'm not even sure that last is possible if they're already registered with ACK.

 

What was it about this breeder that interested you?

 

I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

I am searching for a new pup but i'm wanting to find one from good lines and within reasonable driving distance to me. Someone I know had gotten a pup from them a couple years ago and had recommended them to me. I know his dog and am impressed with him and know that he is registered ABCA. So I thought I would inquire here first and get feedback if available before i contacted this breeder. I am located in mid missouri and am willing to drive a few hundred miles to visit a breeder (i've been burned in the past by not visiting the breeder's facility and I prefer to take care of my own shipping)

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I am searching for a new pup but i'm wanting to find one from good lines and within reasonable driving distance to me. Someone I know had gotten a pup from them a couple years ago and had recommended them to me. I know his dog and am impressed with him and know that he is registered ABCA. So I thought I would inquire here first and get feedback if available before i contacted this breeder. I am located in mid missouri and am willing to drive a few hundred miles to visit a breeder (i've been burned in the past by not visiting the breeder's facility and I prefer to take care of my own shipping)

I have, since posting this, checked and I see that 1 of the 3 breeders listed on the site is listed under the high volume breeders. I see her name listed 2 consecutive years which kind of confuses me if ABCA doesn't endorse such breeders then why is she being allowed to register pups?

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Being True to the Border Collie breed I feel is important if you are a breeder. To me the Border Collie is a working dog, a herding dog. Therefore to breed for other purposes, making choices on breeding dog on other characteristics regardless of working ability, results in dogs that at their core not Border Collies.

 

For any dog - You have to decide what are the important characteristics for you and find a breeder who makes that and whose dogs prove that.

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I have, since posting this, checked and I see that 1 of the 3 breeders listed on the site is listed under the high volume breeders. I see her name listed 2 consecutive years which kind of confuses me if ABCA doesn't endorse such breeders then why is she being allowed to register pups?

 

 

ABCA won't refuse to register their pups, they simply name them on their list. At present high volume is not criteria for barring a breeder from ABCA registry.

 

~ Gloria

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IronHorse, you've been around for a long time, so you should have an idea what the values of the Boards are when it comes to breeding border collies. This breeder doesn't come close to any of them.

 

Being registered with ABCA (or with ACK if that were your registry of choice) isn't a guarantee of quality. It just means that the parents were registered.

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ABCA won't refuse to register their pups, they simply name them on their list. At present high volume is not criteria for barring a breeder from ABCA registry.

 

~ Gloria

Gloria, Ok I get that, sort of. I'm not looking to argue the matter but I am seeking clarity because the more I look at this the more confused I am becoming.

Isn't it being rather hypocritical to allow registration of dogs and pups being breed by , ABCAs own words, 'The ABCA does not endorse high volume breeders.'

I have also read on their site that, in their own words, 'All our dogs are registered with either the American Border Collie Association (ABCA) or the American Kennel Club (AKC) or both.'

But I also see that, ABCAs words, 'The ABCA does not recognize any registry that promotes conformation showing of Border Collies. Consequently, registration with the American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, the Kennel Club (UK), Federation Cynologique Internationale, Australian or New Zealand Kennel Clubs, or any such body will not be accepted as a basis for registration with the ABCA.'

 

I don't know if you speak for the ABCA but if you do then can you answer my question, Does the ABCA stand behind this breeder or not?

I'm just searching for a dog that suits my criteria and I thought that registration with the ABCA was one of my criteria....now i am not sure, so I seek clarity.

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ABCA only disbars breeders from registering with ABCA for fraudulent practices. The listing of high-volume breeders is an effort at education or information, and allows a purchaser to make his/her own decision with knowledge of one simple fact - the number of pups certain breeders have registered in a year (if they register 30 or more).

 

Any pup that is born of ABCA-registered parents, even if those parents are also AKC-registered, can be registered with ABCA. AKC accepts any ABCA-registered offspring into their registry but the opposite is not true. ABCA only accepts reciprocal registry with the Canadian Border Collie Association, the International Sheep Dog Society, the Australian Working Border Collie Registry, and two older North American registries, the North American Sheep Dog Society and the American International Border Collie Registry.

 

Registration with ABCA is not a guarantee but it is a first step. It's up to the purchaser to research the breeder and the breeding, and then make a decision, and not just blindly choose a pup because it is registered with any particular registry. There are those who breed for the wrong reasons so it is the purchasers responsibility to do his/her homework as well. That said, I would not have anything to do with a breeder who dual-registers with AKC, encourages registration with AKC, or in any other way promotes AKC as a valid Border Collie registry because, in my opinion and that of these boards, it is not. But I would also do my homework in finding a breeder and a breeding when and if I were to get another dog or pup, and it would be ABCA-registered (or from one of the other reciprocal registries).

 

Is that any clearer, or muddier yet?

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Of course, ROM (Registry on Merit) is another issue.

.

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Here's an excerpt from a website that may help you understand some of the issues that trouble us about the breeder you're looking at, IronHorse. It's from a member of these Boards, Liz P.

 

I breed Border Collies for work. Any dog or bitch that produces a litter in my kennel will have proven it's worth moving stock, whether that is on farms exclusively or on trial fields as well. Breeding for any other reason will create a shadow of the breed; a dog that looks like a Border Collie but is unable to complete the complex tasks required of a stock dog. It is for this reason I do not register my litters with the AKC.

Because I breed for work, my dogs' coat color is not high on my list of priorities. While Border Collies do come in virtually every color and pattern imaginable, the most common are black and white, black tri color or sable tri color. Occasionally a red dog (genetically brown) is born to black parents because the gene causing this color is recessive. Blue (dilute black) is another recessive color that pops up from time to time in working bred litters. Even less common colors and patterns include merle, brindle, lilac (dilute red) and clear sable ("Australian red").

Unfortunately, the backyard breeders and puppy mills have figured out that people looking to buy a puppy as a pet will pay more for and seek out these less common colors and patterns. Be immediately suspicious of any breeder with these less common colors, especially if they charge more for them. I personally know of only three breeders in all of North America with true working bred merles. This is how rare good dogs of color are within the population. (https://sites.google.com/site/nbksheepdogs/please-read)

As you can readily see, this breeder's extensive list of puppies and dogs is chock full of the unusual colors, which, btw, they're charging more for. So, high volume (dangerously close to if not actually a puppy mill), breeding for colors, sport and pet homes, ACK registered and no mention of working livestock. Any one of these is a big ol' red flag, but put together is just screams "STAY AWAY" to anyone who's at all concerned about the welfare of the border collie breed.

ACK is not and has never been about work. Quite the opposite. Their entire reason for existing is to promote breeding for the show ring, for what a dog looks like not how it works.

 

Although the ABCA was founded on principles of breeding for livestock work, many border collie breeders seem to have forgotten that ideal and have focused instead on the qualities they believe will make good agility or other non-herding sports dog and/or on color. From Nightshade's website, that appears to be the direction they've taken. (I readily admit I haven't read every page on their site, but what I have showcases non-herding sports and, in particular, unusual colors. I didn't see any mentions of dogs working livestock at all.)

 

No respectable border collie breeder who cares at all about preserving the breed as it was developed and intended to be would dual register with ACK or indeed register any of their dogs with ACK. The truism "you cannot serve two masters" comes to mind. Even if a pup from this kennel is ABCA registered, it hasn't been bred to the standards and ideals of a working registry.

 

If any of Nightshades' pups are eligible for ABCA registry, it's only by the accident of the parents being registered by ABCA or dual registered by ABCA/ACK, but bred for the wrong reasons.

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The Value of a registered dog in my opinion lies in the knowledge you gain from that listing of parents - knowing how they work, if won big trials, being able to watch other pups out of those parents work, learn about personalities and any genetics problems that have been seen.

 

Without that Knowledge or asking others about the lines and Heritage and traits of those dog the Paper is simply a paper with names on it. Doesn't mean a thing.

 

I know some dandy working dogs that do not have papers, the more ranches you visit the more dogs you will see. They know the lines and history of the dogs but it is not written down. Registrations for any animal are that way - horses, cattle- give you information on the line if you do your research. Not a guarantee on anything - except hopefully the parents.

My mom and her brothers were big into foundation quarter horses in the day. My uncle in the quarter horse hall of fame - they said "you can't ride papers"

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Ironhorse, if you are in Mo, I would talk to Lyle East of Serendipity Stockdogs. Great guy--good, solid working dogs.

A

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Gloria, Ok I get that, sort of. I'm not looking to argue the matter but I am seeking clarity because the more I look at this the more confused I am becoming.

Isn't it being rather hypocritical to allow registration of dogs and pups being breed by , ABCAs own words, 'The ABCA does not endorse high volume breeders.'

I have also read on their site that, in their own words, 'All our dogs are registered with either the American Border Collie Association (ABCA) or the American Kennel Club (AKC) or both.'

But I also see that, ABCAs words, 'The ABCA does not recognize any registry that promotes conformation showing of Border Collies. Consequently, registration with the American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, the Kennel Club (UK), Federation Cynologique Internationale, Australian or New Zealand Kennel Clubs, or any such body will not be accepted as a basis for registration with the ABCA.'

 

I don't know if you speak for the ABCA but if you do then can you answer my question, Does the ABCA stand behind this breeder or not?

I'm just searching for a dog that suits my criteria and I thought that registration with the ABCA was one of my criteria....now i am not sure, so I seek clarity.

 

Hi again!

 

Sue gave you a very good answer so I'll just add my two bits.

 

The ABCA is simply a registry and so they can't be said to "stand behind" a breeder any more than the AKC can be said to "stand behind" a puppy mill. They do not police or inspect breeders any more than AKC does. If a breeder has dogs whose parents are registered and they have not committed some kind of malfeasance that would warrant de-registering their dogs, then the registry will accept the papers and record the puppies into registry.

 

The answer therefore is, if Nightshades produces a litter of puppies from parents that are duly registered with ABCA, then the puppies will be accepted into registry. There is no existing reason not to, unless Nightshades gets into some kind of sanctionable trouble, such as fraudulent records keeping or falsifying parentage.

 

If the puppies come from parents who are AKC registered, or from a mated pair of which one is AKC and one ABCA, then the puppies cannot be registered with ABCA. The only way any of those pups would be registered would be by ROM, Registry of Merit, which has to be judged on individual merit of each pup's working ability when grown into a trained dog.

 

ABCA also will not register any dog or any litter from a dog who has won a Championship in Conformation, whether from AKC or any oversees breed club. This deliberately to discourage the breeding of border collies for purely cosmetic and artificial, non-working show standards.

 

However, they *will* accept registry from dogs and pups born of parents who are registered with the ISDS, the International Sheep Dog Society. The reason for that is that the ISDS is like the ABCA in focusing on and promoting the breeding of working dogs, not show dogs.

 

Bottom line, though, the ABCA has not made high volume breeding an actionable offense worthy of penalty such as de-registering dogs or refusing registry for puppies. They frown upon and would discourage high volume breeding, but they have not chosen to take the step of putting a cap on the number of litters a breeder may produce each year for registry with the ABCA.

 

Does this help clarify things for you? :)

 

~ Gloria

 

 

 

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ABCA only disbars breeders from registering with ABCA for fraudulent practices. The listing of high-volume breeders is an effort at education or information, and allows a purchaser to make his/her own decision with knowledge of one simple fact - the number of pups certain breeders have registered in a year (if they register 30 or more).

 

Any pup that is born of ABCA-registered parents, even if those parents are also AKC-registered, can be registered with ABCA. AKC accepts any ABCA-registered offspring into their registry but the opposite is not true. ABCA only accepts reciprocal registry with the Canadian Border Collie Association, the International Sheep Dog Society, the Australian Working Border Collie Registry, and two older North American registries, the North American Sheep Dog Society and the American International Border Collie Registry.

 

Registration with ABCA is not a guarantee but it is a first step. It's up to the purchaser to research the breeder and the breeding, and then make a decision, and not just blindly choose a pup because it is registered with any particular registry. There are those who breed for the wrong reasons so it is the purchasers responsibility to do his/her homework as well. That said, I would not have anything to do with a breeder who dual-registers with AKC, encourages registration with AKC, or in any other way promotes AKC as a valid Border Collie registry because, in my opinion and that of these boards, it is not. But I would also do my homework in finding a breeder and a breeding when and if I were to get another dog or pup, and it would be ABCA-registered (or from one of the other reciprocal registries).

 

Is that any clearer, or muddier yet?

Muddier on the highlighted

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Muddier on the highlighted

 

Anyone who knows more correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me: if mom and dad are ABCA registered, their pups can be ABCA registered. If mom and/or dad are not ABCA registered, then pups can not be ABCA registered (with the exception of pups born out of parents that are registered with the Canadian Border Collie Association, the International Sheep Dog Society, the Australian Working Border Collie Registry, and two older North American registries, the North American Sheep Dog Society and the American International Border Collie Registry. ABCA accepts pups from those parents. But it doesn't accept pups from AKC registered parents).

 

AKC, on the other hand, accepts in their registry pups from ABCA registered parents.

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I'm not sure what you don't understand.

 

The ABCA will only register pups from parents that are both registered with it.

 

It is not interested whether those dogs are also registered with the AKC unless a dog goes on to win a conformation Champion title, in which case it will not register pups from that dog.

 

AKC will register a dog that is first ABCA registered.

 

ABCA will not register a dog that is first AKC registered unless it passes a registration on merit test. AKC registration is considered worthless from the pov of working ability.

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It is not interested whether those dogs are also registered with the AKC unless a dog goes on to win a conformation Champion title, in which case it will not register pups from that dog.

 

I suspect that in a perfect world many ABCA members (at least those who care about border collies as livestock working dogs) would like to see any dogs with dual ABCA/ACK registries de-registered and/or to deny registration to any pups produced by dual registered parents. (I certainly would.)

 

But they simply don't have the resources to be able to track and compare every single border collie registry in both lists.

 

Because ACK has chosen not to close it's stud book for border collies because of unsustainably low numbers within the ACK version of the breed, people will still acquire ABCA border collies and then register them with ACK. This gives them the flexibility to register offspring of those dogs with ether registry.

 

It does not mean that they're breeding in compliance with the ABCA mission, which is:

The ABCA exists to register, maintain and verify the pedigrees of Border Collies, to promote and foster in North America the breeding, training and distribution of reliable working Border Collies, and to promote stockdog trials and exhibitions. (http://americanbordercollie.org/)

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Hi again!

 

Sue gave you a very good answer so I'll just add my two bits.

 

The ABCA is simply a registry and so they can't be said to "stand behind" a breeder any more than the AKC can be said to "stand behind" a puppy mill. They do not police or inspect breeders any more than AKC does. If a breeder has dogs whose parents are registered and they have not committed some kind of malfeasance that would warrant de-registering their dogs, then the registry will accept the papers and record the puppies into registry.

 

The answer therefore is, if Nightshades produces a litter of puppies from parents that are duly registered with ABCA, then the puppies will be accepted into registry. There is no existing reason not to, unless Nightshades gets into some kind of sanctionable trouble, such as fraudulent records keeping or falsifying parentage.

 

If the puppies come from parents who are AKC registered, or from a mated pair of which one is AKC and one ABCA, then the puppies cannot be registered with ABCA. The only way any of those pups would be registered would be by ROM, Registry of Merit, which has to be judged on individual merit of each pup's working ability when grown into a trained dog.

 

ABCA also will not register any dog or any litter from a dog who has won a Championship in Conformation, whether from AKC or any oversees breed club. This deliberately to discourage the breeding of border collies for purely cosmetic and artificial, non-working show standards.

 

However, they *will* accept registry from dogs and pups born of parents who are registered with the ISDS, the International Sheep Dog Society. The reason for that is that the ISDS is like the ABCA in focusing on and promoting the breeding of working dogs, not show dogs.

 

Bottom line, though, the ABCA has not made high volume breeding an actionable offense worthy of penalty such as de-registering dogs or refusing registry for puppies. They frown upon and would discourage high volume breeding, but they have not chosen to take the step of putting a cap on the number of litters a breeder may produce each year for registry with the ABCA.

 

Does this help clarify things for you? :)

 

~ Gloria

 

 

 

Gloria,

Thank you for taking the time to expound upon the issue of registration with the ABCA.

I did not begin this post with the intent to become engaged in the politics of registrations although I believe it is a good topic for people to take note of and to understand.

My intent was to ask if anyone had direct knowledge of this breeder due to my research that showed they register both ABCA and AKC plus they dual register.

After being away from these boards for a decade I see that nothing much has changed in regard to the disdain that is shown towards the AKC and the direction that it has taken in its criteria towards it's version of the border collie breed.

I am surprised that the ABCA has chosen to continue the duel registry practices between itself and a registry that they are diametrically opposed to.

It is only my personal opinion but I see this as only diluting the essense of what the ABCA strives for with regards to breeding practices.

 

As i have retired from maintaining stock I no longer am searching for a high energy working dog but I am in search of an intelligent dog and my wife and I adore the border collie breed. So I do believe we shall go and pay this breeder a visit, they may have the pup i am looking for.

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I am surprised that the ABCA has chosen to continue the duel registry practices between itself and a registry that they are diametrically opposed to.

 

As I mentioned in my post above, I suspect this is not an ideological decision but one based on practicality. It would be an enormous undertaking to be able to compare all entries in both registries to winnow out those that should be de-registered and them continue to monitor all future registrations. Who would pay for that?

 

I also no longer raise livestock, but (speaking only for myself) I'd still not compromise my values to purchase a dog from a breeder like Nightshades. In fact, I've opted to go the rescue route and for the past 13 years all my dogs have been rescues. I don't have to worry about choosing a reputable breeder, just giving an existing dog a good home. Could that be a possibility for you as well?

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I am surprised that the ABCA has chosen to continue the duel registry practices between itself and a registry that they are diametrically opposed to.

 

ABCA has not "chosen to continue" any dual-registry practices between itself and AKC. AKC chooses to maintain an open studbook, accepting pups/adults who are already registered with ABCA and ISDS (and, perhaps, CBCA). There is no way that ABCA can prevent someone with an animal registered with them from registering with AKC (or any "junk" registry) using the papers the owner has obtained from ABCA.

 

If ABCA were to choose to do the only thing they could to prevent dual-registration, it would entail somehow monitoring every AKC registration to see if they could determine if the AKC-registered animal was also ABCA-registered, which could be quite the nightmare of investigation. That would be extremely costly and time-consuming. ABCA does, at least, de-register any animal that has completed an AKC breed championship and its offspring would not be eligible for ABCA registration, either (I assume they could be ROM'd but that's another issue).

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And, what GentleLake said. Why compromise by choosing a color, dual-registry breeder when there are many fine rescues available, as well as pups from reputable working breeders?

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As I mentioned in my post above, I suspect this is not an ideological decision but one based on practicality. It would be an enormous undertaking to be able to compare all entries in both registries to winnow out those that should be de-registered and them continue to monitor all future registrations. Who would pay for that?

 

I also no longer raise livestock, but (speaking only for myself) I'd still not compromise my values to purchase a dog from a breeder like Nightshades. In fact, I've opted to go the rescue route and for the past 13 years all my dogs have been rescues. I don't have to worry about choosing a reputable breeder, just giving an existing dog a good home. Could that be a possibility for you as well?

GentleLake, I appreciate your input on this thread but it might behove you to go into the archives here and look at some of the threads associated with my past on these boards. in particular you may want to look at the 'My decision' thread started by me. It might be of interest to you.

I have worked hand in hand with several rescue groups in the past and to put it bluntly, was left with a bad taste in my mouth that caused a difficult situation become worse instead of better.

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