Tuxedodog Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 After our much less than successful attempt to clip Charley's nails, he now has a major vet phobia. Actually beyond phobia, he ended up biting me to avoid letting the vet near him. We had to return to get a follow up vaccine and he was having no part of letting anyone but me near him. When the tech came up to us to get the crate of kittens for shots, he gave a quiet growl. I was shocked into inaction. When the vet came out she handed me the muzzle, but he was not having any part of that, so she asked me to hold him and he flipped out. In the past we always put a muzzle on him at the vet's since he would snap when he was stressed. We took him to a quieter space and when I asked him to settle and tried to turn him so he could get his shot, he lashed out and bit me - it was a tiny puncture, but not anything that I would ever expect from him. I am not sure how to get him over this since he has to return in 6 months for blood work, and hopefully not before we fix this. For this visit the vet sent me home with the lyme vaccine and it was a total non-event at home to give him the shot. He doesn't like to be restrained, but his reaction is extreme. The vet suggested a behaviorist, but with Charley everything is situational. We learned to walk nicely on a leash in doggy school, but it didn't translate to walks at home even with a lot of work. He has a sit and stay in the house at the door (each door had to be taught separately) but outside is another story. The first step I guess it to retrain him to allow a muzzle and find a way to keep him from getting it off, but I don't know where to go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Wow! What an awful situation to be in. I feel for you. Can you ask the vet if you can visit the office with your dog -- no appointment, no interaction with the vet -- and just sit in the waiting room with lots of very, especially high value yummy treats so you can try to change his emotional response to the location? You might try just walking in, very upbeat and doling out treats, for just a minute at first and then turning right around and leaving. Then gradually increase the length of time as he becomes more comfortable, working up to maybe some positive interactions with receptionists, techs, the vet if willing, maybe try putting him on the scale. . . all of these tiny increases with the special treats coming like rain. Classic desensitization and counter conditioning. Also gradually accustom him to the muzzle at home, using the same technique) so that by the time you go back you could maybe put it on him in the car before going into the office. Very best wishes. I sure hope you can find a way to work through this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraV Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 May I ask what was the problem in regards to you clipping them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Gentlelake, thanks, this sounds very doable. I hate to admit that I think the vet was anxious after the last interaction and that probably didn't help. I don't blame her at all. She was a shelter vet and has been very supportive especially since Charley came from a rescue. I don't want anyone to get hurt, or for that matter Charley since he stresses out so much. When we got home from the last trip he was in the car looking at me in a way that made me uneasy - he usually jumps right out when I tell him okay. I had to call him out and I offered to make a big fuss over him which made him relax and go back to his normal happy dog self. Laura, Charley doesn't like you to touch his feet and freaks if you restrain him to do his nails. I asked the vet to help and it didn't go well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraV Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I've heard some success stories using peanut butter on a spoon or spatula and taping it to a chair leg and letting them lick that while you clip their nails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Another possibility might be to give him some calming treats or even ask the vet for a sedative of some kind prior to his next visit. Some people have discussed Soloquin or a similar med here recently. I've used melatonin or Pet Naturals Calming Treats for certain situations in the past. You could give the calming treats for a few days leading up to the app't and they can be safely doubled or even tripled for very stressful situations. The Pet Naturals treats are available in pet stores, but are usually cheaper online from places like Swanson or Amazon. I usually buy the size for dogs over 75 lb.s and cut them in half. Amazon only seems to have one seller ATM and they'r twice the cost I usually find them for. Swanson only seems to have a smaller size ATM: https://www.swansonvitamins.com/pet-naturals-calming-dogs-30-chews#id-tab-other-sizes-content From what I see available on chewy.com (https://www.chewy.com/pet-naturals-vermont-calming-dog/dp/118781) it looks like they may be packaging them differently now as for all size dogs. You might check other places as well. And there are other brands with different combinations of ingredients. https://www.chewy.com/vetriscience-composure-behavioral/dp/42645, https://www.chewy.com/naturvet-quiet-moments-calming-aid/dp/108219, https://www.chewy.com/vets-best-comfort-calm-dog/dp/56145, https://www.chewy.com/zukes-enhance-calming-peanut-butter/dp/132627. Zylkene is more expensive, but I have a friend who uses it and swears by it. https://www.chewy.com/vetoquinol-zylkene-nutritional/dp/121053 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I've heard some success stories using peanut butter on a spoon or spatula and taping it to a chair leg and letting them lick that while you clip their nails I know a rescue that smears PB on a refrigerator door at nose level while they clip nails. No one needs to hold the door, so fewer people involved. Brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraV Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I know a rescue that smears PB on a refrigerator door at nose level while they clip nails. No one needs to hold the door, so fewer people involved. Brilliant. Yes! Exactly! My dog has sensitive paws but cares more about food than how I'm clipping his nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 We did touch and treat to get him used to us touching his feet. It wasn't really well received if I went past 2 touches. The only advancement we made was that I can wipe his feet a little. He just has to see the clippers to run into his crate. The vet trimmed one back foot and when the tech reached for the front foot he got out of the muzzle and went for the vet. She sedated him and he had an opposite reaction and flipped out completely. This was totally a surprise the first time it happened since when I got him I took him to get his nails trimmed and they used a grinder and it went very well. That was the last time he got trimmed that he wasn't heavily drugged. The other times he went for the person with the clippers and it never got completely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Is a grinder still an option then? What about teaching him to trim his own nails? http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/nailfile.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Unfortunately the grinder is not an option. The second time I took him he freaked out badly enough to express his anal glands. Interesting website. How do you do the dew claws? That is what drove me to ask the vet in the first place. I know the rescue I got him from trimmed his nails at least once before I got him. My husband and I both had a healthy respect for the person who ran the rescue, we wouldn't have wanted to cross her. She put perfect recall on Charley, but admitted she couldn't keep him from jumping on her. I might give it a go with and emery board and lots of treats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Unfortunately, I don't think dewclaws will be trimmed with that method. But at least it would leave a whole lot fewer nails to have to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 My Joey gets so scared at the vet that he completely wigs out. I have tranquilizers for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Good suggestions above. I have never had a really frightened dog like Charley, but Torque definitely resists having his nails cut. And I did do a lot of paw handling, etc. when he was a pup, and he used to be better about it, but seems to get worse with age. I could, if I had too, trim all his nails at once, but now I reduce his stress by just trimming only one foot per day. And sometimes will only do one or two nails at a time. Lots of treats too. Another technique change was to clip only a little bit of nail at a time. I used to clip to the length I wanted with only one clip straight across the nail (and I think I have hit his quick only one time in 9 years). By his reaction, I am thinking that he does not like the feeling, even though it shouldn't 'hurt' him. Now, I clip only 2-3 mm at the tip, and then work back little by little (mm by mm) - clipping at angles and not straight across the nail. He definitely tolerates this much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Join the group on Facebook called Positive Dog Husbandry-they are very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Just out of curiosity what position is your dog in for nail clippings? I have found the best success with having the dog sitting for their front nails and teaching a solid 'shake'. That way the dog isn't made more uncomfortable laying on their back and they are giving me their paw as opposed to me grabbing their paw to force it. For back paws I find mygirls are more comfortable in a down while I lift their back paws slightly. Also, you may try just clipping one nail then have a party with lots of treats something super high value they don't get often like hot dogs, cheese, chicken, tripe, or left over meat from dinner. After that don't try clipping another nail until the next day. As for the vet situation I agree with what was said. If going into the vet office is still too much just go to the point your dog is starting to be uncomfortable, but not a total wreck. Even if that's just opening the car door in the vet parking lot and throw a party just inside the car and give tons of high value treats for a solid 10 seconds then close the door and the party/treats end. Do this at most three times then leave. After you leave there is no more treat party. After the dog stops being stressed at that step maybe get a step outside the car and have the party. Then go back in the car and leave. If your dog is failing over and over again go back a step to where your dog was making progress. Most importantly don't try to rush things or you could make it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawgirl Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Not entirely sure if this is relevant, and may not be possible for you, but one of my boys would get very stressed at the vet clinic where he stayed when he had green potato poisoning at 14 weeks, and where he was was desexed at 1 year. After he was desexed, we had to put a muzzle on him whenever he went to the vets. About 18 months ago, we decided to change vet clinics. Now Oscar has no problems with the vets, no bad memories and no muzzle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Well, I have a feeling a lot of you won't like this, but here goes anyway. Whatever happened to "You have to put up with this because I say so."? I provide a roof, vet care, food, entertainment and everything else the dog needs. The dog can bloody-well put up with having its nails clipped. My dog doesn't like having her nails clipped. She doesn't like the taste of Trifexis. But in the one case I tell her to sit or lie down and be still, and get on with the job. In the other I just open her mouth and put the pill down her throat. She will not bite me. We don't have the kind of relationship that makes that an option. (Not because she is afraid of me. She isn't. But she knows she has to obey me, and trusts that I will not ask anything of her that will bring her to harm.) In the years I spent as a vet's assistant, groomer's bathe-and-brush person, obedience trainer and kennel-maid, I learned that for a dog to trust and obey you, you have to believe that you have the right to tell the dog what to do. Dogs get this. In so many cases, a dog that was pitching a fit at the groomer's or the vet's could be completely turned around by taking the owner (with their anxiety, fear and unwillingness to be in charge) out of the room. This would sufficiently calm the dog so that it could be treated/ worked on without undue fuss. Often without resorting to strong-arm restraint or a muzzle. Partly this was because anxiety (the owner's) is communicable, and partly because dogs understand that drama is useless with someone who is radiating calm self confidence. I used to cut my friends' dogs' nails and those of complete strangers' dogs at an annual dip & clip charity event. I never once had to muzzle a dog. I would hear so many people say, "Oh she would never let me do that!" And, of course, it was because the dog could plainly see that the owner did not have the conviction that it was her right to do the dog's nails. Once I explained this to people, they often got it, and it significantly changed their relationship to their dogs. Their bond of trust became stronger, and the dogs were often more obedient (and happier). Some people, of course, were never able to get it. And their own lack of self-confidence caused them to suffer, and their relationship with their dog to suffer. OK. Flame away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 We moved here about a year ago and it is a rural area. I like this vet, she is my third vet since moving. The first sends the young inexperienced vets to the local practice, and they didn't do a good job when I took my old cat in for his final visit. The second is never open. This vet has been a godsend since she has had mercy on my checkbook when momcat and her 4 kittens showed up, three of them girls. I won't tell you what most of the locals do with their kittens since very few spay an neuter. I see the vet tomorrow when the male kitten goes in for his surgery, I can discuss the plan you have all suggested for Charley. I don't anticipate anything but a positive reaction from her since she has a Border Collie mix and the receptionist has one that is a challenge also. The fact that Charley is a rescue and that we are willing to work through any issues gives us more chances to fix the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 What did they sedate him with when he flipped out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Geonni, no flaming from me. I don't fear my dog, I am not anxious, Charley just has a switch that flips. I do believe that there is something not quite right with him. When he gets stressed or tired he moves his legs laterally rather than diagonally. We have been very firm with him, but it came down to either letting him have his way or possibly injuring the dog, we gave in and let him go with his nails untrimmed. The same goes for opening his mouth, he becomes frantic if you try. My other dog, a Great Pyr/GSD hates to have her nails done, but she gets held down and her nails get clipped. She gives up after she realizes we aren't going to stop. At our second vet visit, they took Charley without me to give him his shots, he was so upset he peed, pooped and puked. This last was the third visit. I got bitten because I didn't think he would bite me no matter how upset he got. Overall he is a very obedient dog, he knows the house rules. If he was a dog I raised from a puppy, I would be questioning myself more, but who knows what was done to him in the past. The other night I went to put a soup ladle in the dishwasher and he hit the ground and then bolted for his crate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I highly doubt that this is caused by anything done to him in the past. The reactions are extreme. This sounds much more like a significant anxiety issue that is getting worse with time. I too am.very much in the "get it done" camp with many things. But I think with this that I'd seriously look into the veterinary behaviorist and be open to the idea of a period of medication to see if that makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 The vet gave him Ace - I had used it before to trim him, but my old vet gave me a bigger dose. I didn't like to use it because it made me uneasy to drug him so seriously for something that should not have been such a big deal. As for a behaviorist, I am not really sold. I took the last Border Collie who had really severe separation anxiety and he was great with the doc, I got him home and he just shut down when I asked him to do the training. Another issue is that the closest is 50+ miles away. With Charley everything is situational, he doesn't get that the same command means the same thing under different circumstances. I don't think he is stupid, if he was a person I would say learning disabled, he didn't know how to learn, that was the big challenge when we got him. The vet and I discussed medication, we will probably revisit that if the trips to the office don't make an appreciable positive impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Just my opinion but Ace is horrible stuff for dogs with anxiety. There are many many better options. Its a tough situation. I wish I had useful suggestions. I was lucky, my one dog with nail issues completely surrendered once I muzzled her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Ace is likely what exasperated the issue. That reaction is not uncommon. Basically the dog is semi paralyzed but still fully cognizant. Break throughs happen for the really scared ones and the dog learns to fear the situation more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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