Please help with stay?

[Chick-N-Picker]

Not sure if this goes in training or is that for only sheep herding?

 

Anyway, I want to teach Yoti to stay in place for all the benefits it can bring. I think it's all around one of the most useful commands.

 

However I've read many different ways to teach this and the method I'm trying doesn't seem to be really teaching the stay command.

 

The method I was trying is to stand in front if the dog. Hold out your palm and say stay. Then touch a treat to the dogs nose and move from his nose to your nose so the dog looks at your eyes. Then count and repeat this adding more seconds every repeat.

 

Yoti can go 10-15 seconds almost every time. But to be honest it just has a "blah" feeling. I don't think he even realizes he's supposed to be learning anything. It's more like he just sitting and looking.

 

What way do you think is the best method to teach stay? If what I'm doing isn't the best method, does it teach anything else?

[mum24dog]

I've never heard of the look away from a treat being used in connection with teaching a stay and it doesn't really make any sense to me in that context. It seems unfair to the dog to have such a distraction.

 

I would actually have taught the stay more informally in various real life situations and kept rewards to a minimum because I want it to become as automatic as breathing. Dogs just want to understand what it is you want of them. I start with waiting for food.

 

But if you're training it as a more formal exercise then by your side, reward, one step away, return, reward, two steps etc usually works fine. When you've got a reasonable distance increase the time but don't increase distance and duration in the same step until the dog understands.

 

Clear and consistent instructions whichever way you teach.

[mum24dog]

Also meant to say that if you're working towards a long duration stay I wouldn't bother with a sit stay, down is easier on the dog.

[urge to herd]

^ This, about the treat. Too many variables in that process.

 

What mum outlined is pretty simple and straightforward. You want your dog to stay where you tell it, until you release it. Another way to look at any training process is only change one thing at a time. So if you want to work on duration, only increase duration for several training sessions, until the dog does not move until you give it a release.

 

If you want to increase distance, increase your distance from the dog, a step at a time, only adding another step when the dog consistently stays while you move away.

 

These cues take some time to learn, think a couple weeks instead of just a day or two. Once you've got the stay or sit whatever where you want it at home, start practicing it in different locations. If you have a yard, practice in the yard. When that is consistent, practice on a walk or other outing. Dogs need to learn the stay always means stay.

 

Each time you change a variable, there is likely to be some slippage. Just keep practicing.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Chick-N-Picker]

I've never heard of the look away from a treat being used in connection with teaching a stay and it doesn't really make any sense to me in that context. It seems unfair to the dog to have such a distraction.

 

I would actually have taught the stay more informally in various real life situations and kept rewards to a minimum because I want it to become as automatic as breathing. Dogs just want to understand what it is you want of them. I start with waiting for food.

 

But if you're training it as a more formal exercise then by your side, reward, one step away, return, reward, two steps etc usually works fine. When you've got a reasonable distance increase the time but don't increase distance and duration in the same step until the dog understands.

 

Clear and consistent instructions whichever way you teach.

The method I'm using I got from a "recent" dog training book. I thought it seemed strange. I would think it's more of a focus exercise than stay. He's not looking away from the treat but instead going from his nose to mine so he'll look at my eyes.

 

I will now have to go back and change my method. Hopefully he'll pick up fairly quick. Because I'm like you. I want him to stay when I stay.

[rushdoggie]

Remember that you will have to deal with variables: distance (both literal and figurative, like if you are not looking at him directly or theres an object between you and the dog), duration and distraction. Only deal with one variable at a time until he is solid on each individually. Then start adding them together.

 

So if you move to a more distracting place, stay close by and work shorter stays until he can comfortably ignore distractions; if you are working on duration, make sure the environment is not terribly distracting (start in the home for example) and don't move too far away; if you are working on distance make sure the environment is not distracting and don't ask for a really long stay). Once you feel the dog is good at each variable, then try putting 2 together, once that is good go to all 3.

 

Over the years I have noticed folks who struggle with stays often start stacking variables together before the dog is solid on any one of them. I also notice that distance is the first thing they add, and I see many dogs who are able to get completely up and away and focused on something else before the handler can get them back or the dogs are just a little nervous and insecure with their human so far away ("wait where are you going?"). I tend to see better results if the handlers stay pretty close for a long time until I can see the dogs really comfortable with the handler leaving, a relaxed face and a general "settling into" the stay ("oh I know what I am doing here, got it").

[chrisandgabe]

I usually teach stay by giving the dog a series of treats, and using a release word. It's typically 5 treats.

 

Dog sits in front of handler, handler puts up hand like a stop sign, says "stay"(once), and then feeds the dog a series of 5 small treats (or half treats), and finishes with a release word like "take a break" and encouraging the dog to move/break the stay after the release word. Repeat a few times. Then, start spacing out time between treats (adding duration). When dog has success with that a few times, begin by doing a little rock step back and coming back in to treat the dog (still 5 treats). As the dog has success, add in more distance between handler and dog, or distraction, or longer durations. Make sure the dog has success each step of the way, and keep using the release word to mark the end of the stay.

[Sekah]

This is probably one of the kindest ways to teach stay.

 

[mum24dog]

How did I teach a stay to Risk? I'm not sure I did beyond expecting him to do it and making sure he wasn't rewarded for breaking.

 

Can't recall using treats, just a release and maybe a good boy / pat. Not against treats and toys at all but only if they add something to the process, which isn't always the case. Just need to know your dog.

 

The only slight problem when in competition was that he looked puzzled as to why I was just standing there and not going about my own business. He still stayed.

 

I'm a great fan of clicker training but not a slave to it. With the collies I tend to reserve it for the occasional clarification as they do tend to get what I want without it. The older I get, the simpler I like things to be.

[Luana]

we started at puppy class, a clicker can be useful.

standing in front of the dog, then making few step back, if he does not break position, go back to the dog, click and give a treat. at first, not using any verbal command. introducing only when he gets what you are asking.

I think is best, when teaching stay, to go back to the dog and reward while he is keeping position. then release.

slowly increase duration. then increase distance and build duration again.

when you start to introduce distraction, such as jumping on the spot, playing with toys in front of him and so on, go back to the easier distance.

we built it gradually to the point he was able to hold position in a pet store with me at the other end of the building, and coming when called.

also a crate can be very useful, to teach to keep position. I used it to build duration in stressful situations.

[D'Elle]

One thing to think about is your release word. Just as you want to use the same word for the cue - always use "wait"
or always use "stay", don't use them alternately -- you want to use the same word for your release, telling the dog it is OK to go.

Now, I am careful picking the word I use. I don't want to use "OK" or "Yes", because I can imagine a scenario in which I am on a street corner with my dog in a stay and the person next to me says into a phone "OK! I will call you tomorrow!" and my dog leaves his stay.

I use a word that would not come up in normal conversation. It sounds funny to people when they hear me say it, but I know that my dogs won't be released accidentally.

 

Also I will second what Rushdoggie said: failure in teaching stay usually comes when the trainer adds on too many distracting elements too soon, or piles them up.

 

I usually start to teach the stay first in normal daily activity: the dogs cannot go out the door until they are released. I do this by asking the dog to wait, then opening the door slightly. If the dog bolts toward the door, it closes. I ask for wait again. Repeat. When the dog will wait and not bolt when the door is slightly open, I add the release word and let the dog go out. I build slowly to where the dog will wait when the door is entirely open. But it is always reinforced, for the life of the dog: if the dog ever goes out without being released, he is brought back and made to wait again. Usually this training easily translates when I start teaching of a more formal stay in other circumstances.

[GentleLake]

...you want to use the same word for the cue - always use "wait" or always use "stay", don't use them alternately...

 

Unless you're teaching "stay" and "wait" as two discrete behaviors.

 

I use both "stay" and "wait" as cues, but I have different expectations for each one.

 

"Stay" means stay exactly where you are now, often where I've placed you. It's the obedience style "stay", which can come in handy in a few situations, such as holding still for a photo or stay with the child who's reading in a therapy situation or hold still while I'm brushing the briar seeds out of your coat. . . . or stop where your are and don't move when there's a rabbit on the path or a bicyclist who might not appreciate your running after her.

 

But in everyday situations I find I really don't need a strict "stay" very often, so I also teach "wait" as a separate cue, one I use much more often. "Wait" means you can hang out comfortably where you are and even move around rather than stay glued in one spot. I use "wait" when I'm cooking and don't want them underfoot. My kitchen's very small so I send my dogs to the adjoining dining room where they can watch or decide to go lie down elsewhere or grab a toy or chew; they can choose to do what they want as long as they don't come into the kitchen -- they're waiting till I'm done and give them permission to come back in. It's the cue I use when I'm leaving the house and they can't come through the door with me. "Stay" really isn't appropriate in that situation because I don't expect them to stay glued in one spot till I return; they're free to go do whatever they want once the door closes behind me. OTOH I use "sit" followed by "stay" followed by the release word at the back door when we're going out into the yard (or the dog(s)'s on leash to accompany me out the front door so there's not a mad rush for everyone to charge in a mad stampede through the door.

 

But I understand what D'Elle meant and, yes, it's a very important bit of advice. She means not to muddy the cues by using a different word to mean the same thing. (Actually, most dogs are capable of understanding different words to have the same meaning, but it's definitely not a good idea to mix words up when you're training a new behavior. For example, my dogs all know that "come", "here" and "c'mon" all mean "come to me", but when I was teaching a recall I only used one, which remains the more imperative cue to be responded to promptly and quickly.) When you're training a new behavior it's very important that you make it easy for the dog to understand what you want by being precise and consistent with your cues. Failure to do so makes it so much harder for the dog to be able to figure out what your expectations are, and leads to what so often people misinterpret as a dog's being stubborn, lazy, untrainable and/or stupid.

 

If you want to eventually teach both "stay" and "wait", teach "stay" first. Because you're not allowing the dog options when you teach "stay" you don't really want them learning that some cues even allow for options. Teach the hard and fast cues and make sure your expectations are clear and they're solid before moving on to more amorphous lessons.

 

So, "wait" comes later and because it's a less distinct behavior it's taught differently. Actually, I'd have a hard time describing how I go about teaching it, and one of the reasons it's more difficult to explain is because by the time you can teach something like that the dog already has some understanding that you've got certain expectations that you're trying to teach . . . and/or that you may already have been teaching certain expectations unconsciously just in the process of day to day routines. Things like "wait" may be taught largely with a process of communicating what's not wanted, as in blocking a dog who wants to go out the door, asking for a "wait" as you do it, or shooing the dog from the kitchen and asking for "wait" at the doorway. Sometimes the reward isn't conveyed with a click and treat, but is built in. If I'm preparing their food and asking them to wait politely they're rewarded by being fed their meal. Or at the door the reward is being able to go out once they're released.

 

Hope this isn't confusing. I really hadn't meant to go off on such a tangent and hope it's more helpful than not.

 

Enjoy your training.

 

Oh, and btw, you chose the right forum for this question. The Training forum, as you correctly deduced, is for stock work training questions.

[Cass C]

To train a stay I use the above methods, but if a dog is being really stubborn about staying when I move; I might clip a leash on them and have someone else who ignores the dog stand on it so the dog can't go anywhere. That way they can't self release and start walking towards you. If the dog tries to break their stay with someone standing on the leash go back and put them back in the position they were (i.e. A sit or down) and try again. Remember if the dog is constantly failing you need to lower your criteria. Maybe just shift your weight side to side and pay for no movement, then take a half step backwards then come back and pay ect. A couple more things make sure you pay before the dog moves and then release the dog, but don't pay for the release as that is is self rewarding.

 

Just something to think about: For my dogs wait and stay have two different meanings... wait means don't go through a door or down a hallway, but they can move around and such as long as they don't pass the opening I told them to wait at. Stay means don't move at all until I release you.

 

I use wait when I need to go outside or in a room without the dogs. I always release them before allowing them to go through the door or opening.

 

Stay is used only for situations when I don't want my dog going anywhere when I walk away like agility or when I see something I need to take care of that is dangerous/I don't want my dog getting into I would use a stay then release. That way a true stay doesn't get muddled with several possible meanings.

[Chick-N-Picker]

 

Unless you're teaching "stay" and "wait" as two discrete behaviors.

 

I use both "stay" and "wait" as cues, but I have different expectations for each one.

 

"Stay" means stay exactly where you are now, often where I've placed you. It's the obedience style "stay", which can come in handy in a few situations, such as holding still for a photo or stay with the child who's reading in a therapy situation or hold still while I'm brushing the briar seeds out of your coat. . . . or stop where your are and don't move when there's a rabbit on the path or a bicyclist who might not appreciate your running after her.

 

But in everyday situations I find I really don't need a strict "stay" very often, so I also teach "wait" as a separate cue, one I use much more often. "Wait" means you can hang out comfortably where you are and even move around rather than stay glued in one spot. I use "wait" when I'm cooking and don't want them underfoot. My kitchen's very small so I send my dogs to the adjoining dining room where they can watch or decide to go lie down elsewhere or grab a toy or chew; they can choose to do what they want as long as they don't come into the kitchen -- they're waiting till I'm done and give them permission to come back in. It's the cue I use when I'm leaving the house and they can't come through the door with me. "Stay" really isn't appropriate in that situation because I don't expect them to stay glued in one spot till I return; they're free to go do whatever they want once the door closes behind me. OTOH I use "sit" followed by "stay" followed by the release word at the back door when we're going out into the yard (or the dog(s)'s on leash to accompany me out the front door so there's not a mad rush for everyone to charge in a mad stampede through the door.

 

But I understand what D'Elle meant and, yes, it's a very important bit of advice. She means not to muddy the cues by using a different word to mean the same thing. (Actually, most dogs are capable of understanding different words to have the same meaning, but it's definitely not a good idea to mix words up when you're training a new behavior. For example, my dogs all know that "come", "here" and "c'mon" all mean "come to me", but when I was teaching a recall I only used one, which remains the more imperative cue to be responded to promptly and quickly.) When you're training a new behavior it's very important that you make it easy for the dog to understand what you want be being precise and consistent with your cues. Failure to do so makes it so much harder for the dog to be able to figure out what your expectations are, and leads to what so often people misinterpret as a dog's being stubborn, lazy and/or stupid.

 

If you want to eventually teach both "stay" and "wait", teach "stay" first. Because you're not allowing the dog options when you teach "stay" you don't really want them learning that some cues even allow for options. Teach the hard and fast cues and make sure your expectations are clear and they're solid before moving on to more amorphous lessons.

 

So, "wait" comes later and because it's a less distinct behavior it's taught differently. Actually, I'd have a hard time describing how I go about teaching it, and one of the reasons it's more difficult to explain is because by the time you can teach something like that the dog already has some understanding that you've got certain expectations that you're trying to teach . . . and/or that you may already have been teaching certain expectations unconsciously just in the process of day to day routines. Things like "wait" may be taught largely with a process of communicating what's not wanted, as in blocking a dog who wants to go out the door, asking for a "wait" as you do it, or shooing the dog from the kitchen and asking for "wait" at the doorway. Sometimes the reward isn't conveyed with a click and treat, but is built in. If I'm preparing their food and asking them to wait politely they're rewarded by being fed their meal. Or at the door the reward is being able to go out once they're released.

 

Hope this isn't confusing. I really hadn't meant to go off on such a tangent and hope it's more helpful than not.

 

Enjoy your training.

 

Oh, and btw, you chose the right forum for this question. The Training forum, as you correctly deduced, is for stock work training questions.

Not confusing at all. It's a big help. Everyone's response.

 

The book I got my method out didn't even say to release after each "stay" so I was ignorantly do them back to back without releasing my dog, except after 4-5 stays. I didn't know.

 

Yoti would have probably never have learned stay. I'm glad I didn't continue on and felt something wasn't right.

 

I'll start using the method above and see how much progress we can make and come back and let you know.

 

PS I really like the idea of using a door to help. Because a dog's first impulse is to want to go through a freshly opened door.

[D'Elle]

Just by the way, I also use "Wait" and "stay" to mean different things. I just didn't want to confuse the issue by going into that.

 

I use "wait" a lot more often that "stay" because in my life there is not commonly a need for a formal "stay". And with my terrier, he seems to understand what is expected. When we go into the library, or a store, I put him into a down at the end of the aisle and say "wait" and he stays there while I peruse the aisle until I release him. I have not actually taught him "stay" as a formal command, and he learned to wait at the door just by watching what the border collies did every day.

 

It is very important to make sure you formally release the dog, though. Otherwise, how is he to know when it is OK to get up again? It always drives me a little nuts when I see someone say "stay" to their dog and then just let the dog get up again whenever the dog wants to.

[simba]

It always drives me a little nuts when I see someone say "stay" to their dog and then just let the dog get up again whenever the dog wants to.

Could not figure out how my dog's 'stay' command had become so terrible. She would wait for a second and then get up and wander off.

 

I then watched my family, when leaving the house for several hours, say 'stay' to the dog to stop her following them out the door. It had become an all purpose thing used all the time. Hmmm. Stay solidly in one position for six hours, or just learn that 'stay' means 'eh, don't follow me for a minute or two'? I was so pissed off. They didn't get it.

[Chick-N-Picker]

Could not figure out how my dog's 'stay' command had become so terrible. She would wait for a second and then get up and wander off.

 

I then watched my family, when leaving the house for several hours, say 'stay' to the dog to stop her following them out the door. It had become an all purpose thing used all the time. Hmmm. Stay solidly in one position for six hours, or just learn that 'stay' means 'eh, don't follow me for a minute or two'? I was so pissed off. They didn't get it.

Haha. Not funny but I know exactly what you mean. Yoti likes to jump some. Not always. I've been teaching him TO jump when asked to and working on not jumping.

 

I've read that the most important thing to teach not jumping is ignore, ignore. Because any attention will teach him jumping gets him noticed.

 

I've told my family that and they ignore me instead and scold him or shake keys st him. WHAT? Its annoying.

 

I think I'm going to go get a clicker but how do I introduce him to the clicker sound means he's doing the correct behavior? I understand what the clicker does but how do I get him started?

[waffles]

 

 

I think I'm going to go get a clicker but how do I introduce him to the clicker sound means he's doing the correct behavior? I understand what the clicker does but how do I get him started?

Search for 'charging a clicker' on youtube and google. Most clickers you buy in the store will also come with a short instructional pamphlet to get you started as well.

[D'Elle]

Could not figure out how my dog's 'stay' command had become so terrible. She would wait for a second and then get up and wander off.

 

I then watched my family, when leaving the house for several hours, say 'stay' to the dog to stop her following them out the door. It had become an all purpose thing used all the time. Hmmm. Stay solidly in one position for six hours, or just learn that 'stay' means 'eh, don't follow me for a minute or two'? I was so pissed off. They didn't get it.

I see this kind of thing all the time. Almost all of the people who hire me to help them with training or behavior issues with their dogs are doing some version of this. The family members use different commands to the dog, or some allow a behavior and others don't, or whatever, but they refuse to get all "on one page" for training the dog. some would rather complain than train.

 

People also love to make excuses, the most often one being "he's a rescue dog", as if that meant anything. I have rarely trained and never owned a dog that was not a rescue dog. Many of the fosters I have had have come from horrible situations. None refused to learn a new way to behave when given the opportunity.

 

One person who asked me to help with her dog and then steadfastly refused to allow me to help insisted on continuing to do something that no longer worked and was having the opposite effect of what she wanted, while saying over and over and over, "But this used to work!" It did no good when I pointed out to her that doing something over and over that no longer works is madness.

 

I always feel so very sorry for the dog in these situations, who is invariably confused and usually anxious and always to one degree or another unhappy, and acting out. Occasionally the dog finally bites someone and there are terrible repercussions. Dogs are so easy to train. People, not so much. People often willfully refuse to learn anything, which I have never in my life seen a dog do. I try, and I always wish I could do more to help the dog, but without taking the dog away there's often nothing I can do.

[Chick-N-Picker]

This is probably a dumb question but can I use an app dog clicker to start training Yoti. I live 45 minutes from the nearest real pet store and Walmart don't sell them. I was going to order one online but it will take a week or so to get here.

 

The app one is free and I'd like to get started trying to train him with this method but if the click needs to come from actual clicker then ill wait.

 

If your done laughing at my question, thank you for the answer. haha

[GentleLake]

You probably could, but I'm not sure how easy it'd be to have the (I'm assuming) phone in your hand to click it in a timely fashion -- and timing's everything with clicker training. The clicker can be awkward enough for some people to use.

 

You could use either a mouth click (like the click you think of that you'd use for a horse, clicking your tongue at the side of your mouth) or a marker word, like "Yes!" as a substitute. I bet you could find examples of people doing either of these on line as well.

[Chick-N-Picker]

You probably could, but I'm not sure how easy it'd be to have the (I'm assuming) phone in your hand to click it in a timely fashion -- and timing's everything with clicker training. The clicker can be awkward enough for some people to use.

 

You could use either a mouth click (like the click you think of that you'd use for a horse, clicking your tongue at the side of your mouth) or a marker word, like "Yes!" as a substitute. I bet you could find examples of people doing either of these on line as well.

Thank you but I actually found a little store that sells a real clicker for 97 cents haha.

I'm really wanting to get serious with training Yoti like the dogs in the video posted on page 1.

[chrisandgabe]

There's an app called click stats that will both make the clicker sound and take data on your training session. You can also use a marker word or clicky pen.

[Chick-N-Picker]

I think I like clicker training.

 

I've only done 4 sessions with Yoti working on staying in down/sit position until released.

 

I'm using the method from the video (kikopup) where you tell them down and train them to only get up when released thus teaching an even better version of stay.

 

I've down 2 session in doors and 2 out doors.

I'm working on distance first (the easiest). I'll either back up or step beside him. Alto day I backed up 50 feet or more. Something I could have never done 5 days ago.

 

I'm just scratching the surface but I and (he) appear to like it. It's quick, easy, and pretty fun. I wish I would have started it day 1. But he's only 9 months old so still found out pretty early, thankfully.

[D'Elle]

 

 

I'm just scratching the surface but I and (he) appear to like it. It's quick, easy, and pretty fun. I wish I would have started it day 1. But he's only 9 months old so still found out pretty early, thankfully.

I am very glad you like the clicker training. In my experience it is the very best training method. Unless you are training the dog for stock work, which is completely different, of course. As for finding it early, that is good as well, but it benefits any dog at any age. My Jester was already four or more before I discovered the joys of clicker training and put it to use, and although he had been easy to train prior to that, he learned exponentially faster once I brought in the clicker techniques. I have also clicker trained dogs who were older than that....one an 11 year old who was badly spoiled and had poor manners....with great success. I love the clicker because it is an unmistakable marker that tells the dog instantly that he or she is on the right track. It becomes a game...and the dog always wins. I love it.