Teaching a Bombproof Down

[B Point]

Hello BC folks. It's been a while. Juno my 22 month old has been getting a fair bit of elementary sheep time and to get us to the next step I need to get him onto a reliable lie down. At home or out for a walk while calm he has a reasonable treat based down. But out at the farm or on the field playing frisbee a lie down is impossible. My instructor is of the heavy handed ilk of forcing him down and maybe Juno being as stubborn as he is will learn from it, but I'm not sure if that is the prudent approach personally. Any advice to getting him that bombproof "I've just been shot" lie down would be greatly appreciated.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Rare sheepdogs WILL NOT go off their feet. Others hate to do so. Please note that treat training (of whatever variety) does not translate well -if at all - to training a young sheepdog.

 

The sheepdog's DOWN is really really complicated but in the earliest training, it is submission. Period.

 

You insist on the down by balancing the dog on the opposite side of the sheep, marching to said dog ( through the training sheep), holding it on balance ( quick moves so it doesn't slip around you to get at them) and looming over it. Even the most stubborn, will drop when its handler is looming over it in a physically threatening manner. I can't remember if I ever physically forced a down - maybe when I was a novice. I'd think it would put the handler badly out of position. As you approach, say firmly but neither angrily nor panicked. "DOWN.LIE DOWN. LIE DOWN." When he goes down step aside and give him his sheep. Your body language is what counts, not your words and should the dog get past you to the sheep, SHUT UP, balance for a bit, reset that perfect balance and march to the dog as before.

 

No Sheepdog Down is Bombproof in the sense pet obedience trainers mean that term. Sheepwork is fluid and fast circumstances change quickly. The only time I want my sheepdog to DOWN and STAY there is when I'm working another dog and that little trick takes a very experienced biddable sheepdog.

 

Donald McCaig

[Cass C]

I have not personally done sheep dog training, but those I've talked to that have started after doing a lot of positive reinforcement said it is a huge transition. I agree that using your body pressure towards/over the dog (who is completely aware what down means, but doesn't want to) and telling them to 'down' in a serious, but not angry voice. I've used this in fetch type games if the dog is blowing me off and they clearly know what is expected.

[Cass C]

I also wanted to add that for someone coming from positive reinforcement it's good to think of a sheepdog working the sheep as the reward for doing what you ask.

[Sekah]

For dealing with obedience type behaviours while playing frisbee, it should be easy enough to reduce distance & distraction sufficiently enough to work for the toy. Start nearby with easy-to-perform exercises before trying to get a down at a distance. Hand touches are good ways to bring your dog back to you, then you can ask for the behaviour. Remember to split progress into tiny bits, don't lump it together.

[rushdoggie]

And be sure its about refusal, my dog (it turns out) has elbows that hurt a bit getting up from a down.

 

He is really overwhelmingly biddable so when I found myself having a dog who could quietly down when released from work, could down at a start before an outrun but when working seemingly couldn't I wondered was it excitement? confusion? what?

 

Why would such a biddable dog refuse? So I had people watch, sure enough a few noticed a slow transition from down to stand, a kind of anxiety about it and we wondered if he was afraid to down when there was "action" as he couldn't get up that fast sometimes ("they are going to get away!!"). A trip to the vet confirmed elbows not ideal (early onset arthritis).

 

So I taught a "Stop." Very un Border Collie like, but he immediately complies. He no longer freaks out thinking the sheep will escape before he can get on his feet.

 

He still downs when I ask (penning for example and I need less pressure) but since I ask less often and he understands stop I now say "Stop! Down" and voila.

[Tea]

I use stand instead of liedown- very rarely in my work do I want a dog to lie down- some of my dogs when young offer to lie down- then I teach them to stand instead. Also I do not teach a dog to absolutely lie down and stay lying down, I do not want an absolute for safety.

[B Point]

Sorry for taking time to get back to my post...it's been a very hectic week. Thank you all for the detailed responses. I had a suspicious feeling that yet again training off the field (in this case a lie down) has little to do with behavior when on sheep. I may in fact be asking too much of Juno as he is one of the least biddable dogs I've ever seen. Hence the heavy handed approach of my instructor. In that respect, maybe a good "stand" is what I should be looking for as Mr McCaig and Tea alluded to. He already has a better stand than a lie down to start with.

So much to work on...thank you all.

[dsmbc]

I think the only good part of training off field is to ensure they have an understanding of the command. I don't have much experience, and I've learned the hard way with my first dog what not to do, but my 18 mo old has a pretty solid down because of those mistakes. here is my list of tips:

 

1. use the command judiciously, rather than as a crutch for yourself. it is better to teach pace so you do not have to always ask for a down just to slow things down.

2. in the early stages of building a solid down, only ask for it when your dog is in balance, it will be easier for your dog as they will feel they have control of the sheep. if your dog is not in the right place and doesn't yet have control of the sheep, asking for the down is only teaching him that to lie down means he will lose the sheep, that is a fast way to ruin the down.

3. As soon as they lie down, ask them back up and let them work the sheep. This way they learn the down does not mean work is over.

4. Don't ask for the down every time your dog does a flank/outrun. Sometimes just let him bring the sheep.

5. if the sheep make a break for it, let him cover.

6. Be consistent, if you are asking for the down at the right time, when your dog is in the right spot, make sure he gives it to you. You can start with a verbal correction or body pressure, but make sure to ask for the down again. get the down before he can work the sheep -- however, be fair about it, if he loses the sheep ask yourself, did he lose them because he wouldn't take the down or because you caused it by asking for the down in the wrong place.

7. Maybe try using a longline, loop it through the fence and hold one end, ask your dog to lie down while you walk part way to sheep, if he holds the down, release the line and let him work the sheep. if he doesn't hold it, correct him, and don't let him have the sheep until he holds the down. he will start to associate the down means I get to work sheep.

 

Don't know if any of this will work for you, but it is what I've been doing with my pup who is close in age to yours,

[Chick-N-Picker]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Rare sheepdogs WILL NOT go off their feet. Others hate to do so. Please note that treat training (of whatever variety) does not translate well -if at all - to training a young sheepdog.

 

The sheepdog's DOWN is really really complicated but in the earliest training, it is submission. Period.

 

You insist on the down by balancing the dog on the opposite side of the sheep, marching to said dog ( through the training sheep), holding it on balance ( quick moves so it doesn't slip around you to get at them) and looming over it. Even the most stubborn, will drop when its handler is looming over it in a physically threatening manner. I can't remember if I ever physically forced a down - maybe when I was a novice. I'd think it would put the handler badly out of position. As you approach, say firmly but neither angrily nor panicked. "DOWN.LIE DOWN. LIE DOWN." When he goes down step aside and give him his sheep. Your body language is what counts, not your words and should the dog get past you to the sheep, SHUT UP, balance for a bit, reset that perfect balance and march to the dog as before.

 

No Sheepdog Down is Bombproof in the sense pet obedience trainers mean that term. Sheepwork is fluid and fast circumstances change quickly. The only time I want my sheepdog to DOWN and STAY there is when I'm working another dog and that little trick takes a very experienced biddable sheepdog.

 

Donald McCaig

I don't train my BC with sheep or cattle but have noticed that if I go toward my BC with a down command or even slight disapproval, such as the word no, he immediately lays down.

 

Pretty much always has. He's 9 months old. And now reading your post it makes sense why he does that.