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crate games and impulse control


Luana
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Hi all,

I'm about to start an experiment with Spillo and try to modify his behavior when approaching sheep.

he is quite impulsive and rushing at them, so it makes the first part of training very difficult, so I am thinking to attempt to use crate games to help build more self-control in difficult situations.

he is used to the crate, and he is crate trained, for example he goes into his crate when he hear the door bell and wait to be released and I worked also with building time in the crate in presence of distractions.

of course with sheep is going to be a different level of challenge.

I was thinking to have him in the crate at a relative distance from the sheep, rewarding him when looking at them without going crazy. covering the crate and wait in case of wrong behavior. I was thinking to start with the crate door close at first, the open it as he progresses building self-control. and then go progressively closer to the sheep and repeat.

I was wondering if anyone used the DVD crate games that I just ordered, and what is your opinion?

the goal is not create an avoidance, but having him focused on the sheep keeping calm.

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You will love that DVD (I'm assuming it's Susan Garret's "Crate Games")!!! It's definitely what you are looking for as far as increasing focus and perfect because you will be able to take the crate to the sheep to use the "tools" she teaches you. If followed properly you should be able to work up to having the door open in front of the sheep (haha one would hope...)

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Love love looooove crate games (although full disclosure, I am an unashamed Susan Garrett groupie). It has helped my dogs immensely in not only enjoying spending time in their crate, but I've applied it to every door they see. So they don't jump out of the car without release cue, no running out the back/front door, and they can stay on a raised cot while the other is working. My Aussie, who is a little older, stays on his cot as my demo dog during class and doesn't break either. I think it could totally be used to help on sheep!

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You will love that DVD (I'm assuming it's Susan Garret's "Crate Games")!!! It's definitely what you are looking for as far as increasing focus and perfect because you will be able to take the crate to the sheep to use the "tools" she teaches you. If followed properly you should be able to work up to having the door open in front of the sheep (haha one would hope...)

 

 

Love love looooove crate games (although full disclosure, I am an unashamed Susan Garrett groupie). It has helped my dogs immensely in not only enjoying spending time in their crate, but I've applied it to every door they see. So they don't jump out of the car without release cue, no running out the back/front door, and they can stay on a raised cot while the other is working. My Aussie, who is a little older, stays on his cot as my demo dog during class and doesn't break either. I think it could totally be used to help on sheep!

I got the DVD and I already watched two times to make sure I got it right before starting. we already did some of this in the past, the question I have is regarding the dog going into a sit when putting the hand on the door crate: Susan Garrett considers this necessary, but after the dog gets the release word and goes back into the crate spontaneously, the sit position is no longer required. Do you enforce this strictly? if the dog keeps the down position when opening the door, what do you do? can this be still acceptable?

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Yes you should reinforce the sit by putting your hand in and treating at the back of the crate like she says. The sit will come in handy because it keeps the dog away from the entrance (i.e. No paws or head etc breaking the barrier) and the dog will know very clearly what is expected so no confusion. It is also nice because it teaches the dog to hold a position without being asked. Anything that the dog has to think about on its own and use control to keep doing will help you out in the long run of your own personal goals. If you follow her directions your dog will learn to sit everytime when you touch the door. It will be a conditioned response and totally automatic.

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Okay, this is all well and good, but I have never heard of using a crate in any relation to training on sheep. In fact, I think constantly restraining him that way could amp his anxiety even higher and raise him to an even more elevated state of frustration. It would be like putting a race horse in the barn every time he started to run.

If you want to train your dog on sheep, find a good sheep instructor. This is NOT something you can do on your own and without skilled, knowledgeable help as well as proper, dog-broke sheep. If you try it any other way, you risk "training" your dog to chase sheep and you definitely risk injury to the sheep themselves, when they throw themselves into gates or fences in a panic to escape. It is totally unfair to the sheep to permit anything but controlled training by a person skilled in working such a dog.

A common approach to a dog who initially rushes sheep is to teach him a reliable "down" so he'll let you walk to the sheep, or have someone hold him on leash while you walk to the sheep, then stand with them, release the dog and let him have his "mad minute" of circling around them while the sheep stay with you. If you can't set that up, if the sheep run away or whatever, again, find a trainer who can. Don't risk injury to the sheep, the dog or yourself - because panicked sheep can and will plow right through a person. You don't want to break a sheep's neck or your own ribs or legs, or even the dog being plowed under if the sheep stampede through him.

~ Gloria


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Okay, this is all well and good, but I have never heard of using a crate in any relation to training on sheep. In fact, I think constantly restraining him that way could amp his anxiety even higher and raise him to an even more elevated state of frustration. It would be like putting a race horse in the barn every time he started to run.

 

If you want to train your dog on sheep, find a good sheep instructor. This is NOT something you can do on your own and without skilled, knowledgeable help as well as proper, dog-broke sheep. If you try it any other way, you risk "training" your dog to chase sheep and you definitely risk injury to the sheep themselves, when they throw themselves into gates or fences in a panic to escape. It is totally unfair to the sheep to permit anything but controlled training by a person skilled in working such a dog.

 

A common approach to a dog who initially rushes sheep is to teach him a reliable "down" so he'll let you walk to the sheep, or have someone hold him on leash while you walk to the sheep, then stand with them, release the dog and let him have his "mad minute" of circling around them while the sheep stay with you. If you can't set that up, if the sheep run away or whatever, again, find a trainer who can. Don't risk injury to the sheep, the dog or yourself - because panicked sheep can and will plow right through a person. You don't want to break a sheep's neck or your own ribs or legs, or even the dog being plowed under if the sheep stampede through him.

 

~ Gloria

 

If you cannot find a good trainer with gentle sheep.

Hi Gloria,

I'm not attempting to train Spillo on sheep using a crate, and I'm working with a trainer.

the impulse control training is done away from sheep, which are safe in a pen. the dog has just to have a visual of the sheep and be able to stay in his spot (it is like I'm giving him a down command and hold it) as well as be able to watch other dogs working sheep.

 

Luana

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Hi Gloria,

I'm not attempting to train Spillo on sheep using a crate, and I'm working with a trainer.

the impulse control training is done away from sheep, which are safe in a pen. the dog has just to have a visual of the sheep and be able to stay in his spot (it is like I'm giving him a down command and hold it) as well as be able to watch other dogs working sheep.

 

Luana

 

 

Ah, okay. So you're just using the crate to teach a down/stay when he can see sheep?

 

As for watching other dogs work sheep ... some dogs simply can't do that. Especially when young and eager. So that in my book is not a necessity. If they can't watch, they can't watch. Especially the young ones.

 

~ Gloria

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Ah, okay. So you're just using the crate to teach a down/stay when he can see sheep?

 

As for watching other dogs work sheep ... some dogs simply can't do that. Especially when young and eager. So that in my book is not a necessity. If they can't watch, they can't watch. Especially the young ones.

 

~ Gloria

yes, what I'm basically trying to do is to transfer the "crate games" principle to the farm environment.

I am starting using regular distractions at the farm, such as people passing by, scooters passing by very close to the crate, other dogs playing fetch in front of the crate. then I will move the crate outside of the pen at a certain distance from sheep, and have him hold down with the crate door open. when the sheep move, it is not easy as he is so focused on the sheep that does not care about anything else. so what I'm trying to do is to have him pay attention to me as well, not shut me out completely when in front of sheep.

generally he does very good outside of the farm, and he does ok when he starts to work sheep, but the initial approach is not good, and even if he responds to the down command, he does not hold it for long. also I do not want him to get the idea that it is OK to approach sheep in that state of mind, so I'm just trying to have him more calm.

 

Luana

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Luana, on 19 Sept 2016 - 07:58, said:

yes, what I'm basically trying to do is to transfer the "crate games" principle to the farm environment.

I am starting using regular distractions at the farm, such as people passing by, scooters passing by very close to the crate, other dogs playing fetch in front of the crate. then I will move the crate outside of the pen at a certain distance from sheep, and have him hold down with the crate door open. when the sheep move, it is not easy as he is so focused on the sheep that does not care about anything else. so what I'm trying to do is to have him pay attention to me as well, not shut me out completely when in front of sheep.

generally he does very good outside of the farm, and he does ok when he starts to work sheep, but the initial approach is not good, and even if he responds to the down command, he does not hold it for long. also I do not want him to get the idea that it is OK to approach sheep in that state of mind, so I'm just trying to have him more calm.

 

Luana

 

This is just me, but I think it's a mistake to use the crate to teach calm on sheep. In a dog's mind, it's little different than tying them to a fence while other dogs work in front of them. I believe it is more liable to build a lot of frustration and tension.

 

Calm on sheep comes from working on sheep, and that comes with time and miles. It is entirely common and entirely normal for young dogs to be a bit crazy and over-enthusiastic in the beginning. This is not a bad thing. If he is not running sheep into the fence or grabbing them by a hind leg, it is not a bad thing. I believe it is a mistake to try and screw down a keen young dog in an effort to prevent mistakes or insist on perfect behavior.

 

Don't try to prevent mistakes. Mistakes are part of the learning process. Being messy, being wrong - all part of the process. If you let him and if you teach him, the dog will learn that mistakes don't feel right and the right things feel good.

 

But most of all, I believe a crate is not a tool in sheepdog training. If all he's doing wrong is being keen to work ... leave him alone. Don't make him watch sheep. Don't make him watch other dogs work sheep. There's no need for that. If he's not working and if he can't look at sheep quietly, skip all the stress and just put him away. Save the crate for a nice, quiet place to relax away from the sheep.

 

That's my advice, anyhow. I've heard of a lot of things, but never of using a crate to teach a sheepdog calm around sheep.

 

Are you working with a trainer?

 

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

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This is just me, but I think it's a mistake to use the crate to teach calm on sheep. In a dog's mind, it's little different than tying them to a fence while other dogs work in front of them. I believe it is more liable to build a lot of frustration and tension.

 

Calm on sheep comes from working on sheep, and that comes with time and miles. It is entirely common and entirely normal for young dogs to be a bit crazy and over-enthusiastic in the beginning. This is not a bad thing. If he is not running sheep into the fence or grabbing them by a hind leg, it is not a bad thing. I believe it is a mistake to try and screw down a keen young dog in an effort to prevent mistakes or insist on perfect behavior.

 

Don't try to prevent mistakes. Mistakes are part of the learning process. Being messy, being wrong - all part of the process. If you let him and if you teach him, the dog will learn that mistakes don't feel right and the right things feel good.

 

But most of all, I believe a crate is not a tool in sheepdog training. If all he's doing wrong is being keen to work ... leave him alone. Don't make him watch sheep. Don't make him watch other dogs work sheep. There's no need for that. If he's not working and if he can't look at sheep quietly, skip all the stress and just put him away. Save the crate for a nice, quiet place to relax away from the sheep.

 

That's my advice, anyhow. I've heard of a lot of things, but never of using a crate to teach a sheepdog calm around sheep.

 

Are you working with a trainer?

 

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

H Gloria,

yes I'm working with a trainer. in the sheepdog training section you might find the videos with me a Spillo, just to see at which point we are now. the videos, the second one particularly, show only when Spillo is working nice around sheep, but the first approach when we arrive at the farm is more difficult for me.

we had to stop training for a while as he got an injury and he had to rest and do some rehab but now we are back to training and I wanted to start in a better way, to have less stress on him at the very beginning of the training session.

I will surely keep in mind all your suggestions, and try to implement your idea to have him in a down position while I approach the sheep and let him go.

we started with him on a long line walking behind the sheep in a small pen, but I do not feel that this approach is working with him as he makes him very frustrated so we are trying something different.

 

Luana

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You would not have the dog in the crate in front of sheep unless you were certain it could hold its position with absolute certainty (the door is left open)... The dog would have to be highly advanced at that point, it's exactly like a down stay, you wouldn't have the dog try one unless you had worked up to the point of that level of distraction... You wouldn't hold it back from what it wanted or dampen the drive, which is why it's used so much in the agility work, it's only focus is building impulse control, the entire point is teaching the dog to choose to stay in position.

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No, I am not familiar with the crate games thing, I freely admit that. I am a believer in the many uses for crates and employ them for many things. They have a thousand good uses!

But self control around sheep is simply not one of the things I would use a crate for. Stockdog training should not depend on gimmicks or gizmos. I believe in teaching the down-stay needed for stock work on the livestock. So do most sheepdog trainers I know. Of the many "big hats" out there, I have never seen a one use a crate to teach self-restraint around sheep. If the dog is advanced enough to sit quietly in a crate near sheep, he doesn't require a crate.

Luana's last response mentions the failure of a long line to teach restraint behind sheep and that it seems to build frustration in her dog. I believe a crate would have the same effect. She said earlier that his approach to sheep is too wild, which is why she wants to include the crate training to attempt to calm him. But whether it's a long line or a crate, either is simply restraining him from what he wants most - his sheep. Restraint is learned by giving him sheep and teaching him how to work, not by telling him, "You can't have sheep until you stop craving them."

Agility is something dogs love to do, of courss. But working sheep is something they are born to do. We're dealing with two entirely different impulses, there. Agility is exciting and fun. Herding is hard-wired into his DNA. To each his own, of course, but I have never heard of using a crate to build calm around sheep and I will advise against it.
Respectfully,

Gloria

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H Gloria,

yes I'm working with a trainer. in the sheepdog training section you might find the videos with me a Spillo, just to see at which point we are now. the videos, the second one particularly, show only when Spillo is working nice around sheep, but the first approach when we arrive at the farm is more difficult for me.

we had to stop training for a while as he got an injury and he had to rest and do some rehab but now we are back to training and I wanted to start in a better way, to have less stress on him at the very beginning of the training session.

I will surely keep in mind all your suggestions, and try to implement your idea to have him in a down position while I approach the sheep and let him go.

we started with him on a long line walking behind the sheep in a small pen, but I do not feel that this approach is working with him as he makes him very frustrated so we are trying something different.

 

Luana

 

 

Luana, I just found and looked at your videos of Spillo - what a nice dog! He's lovely, very thoughtful and kind! Honestly, I see nothing to worry about. The occasional little bursts are simply his frustration and because you sometimes get out of position. That's completely normal when we're starting out - I sometimes say that learning to work a dog on sheep is like learning to do ballroom dancing on a unicycle while juggling kitchen knives! :P

 

Honestly, if I bring a young dog to sheep and he starts off wild, I just let him have at it. Let him air out by going around the sheep while you stay with the sheep. Let him have his "mad minute." If he's not grabbing wool or chasing them into fences - and Spillo looks far too kind to do that - then he's not hurting anything. Many young dogs just need a couple minutes to burn off that "high" of adrenaline and excitement. You do not want to crush that keenness or high. And with a thoughtful dog like him, at least from what I see in the video, I would not recommend doing a lot of slowing him down.

 

If I wished anything, it would be that your trainer spent more time walking with you and showing you where you need to be. The only fault I see is the same thing all of us start out doing - being in the wrong place and getting our timing wrong. :) If anything, I'd want to see Spillo left to work more freely with less blocking and confrontation, and more of you learning how to move better. You need to walk faster and GO somewhere, get ahead out of the way and leave your dog and the sheep a place to go. If you are moving and walking fast, your dog will fetch the sheep with you and he will not wear and flank behind them so much. If you slow down or stop and fuss at him, the forward momentum stops and he and the sheep ball up around you.

 

After all, the object is to move sheep somewhere. You are the steering, Spillo is the engine. Move them feets more and don't stop to confront him so much. You can block him with your stick while still moving your feet.

 

After all, it's just ballroom dancing on a unicycle with kitchen knives ... :D

 

He is a very nice dog. I think he is a lovely one for you to learn on. Best of luck!

 

~ Gloria

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No, I am not familiar with the crate games thing, I freely admit that. I am a believer in the many uses for crates and employ them for many things. They have a thousand good uses!

 

But self control around sheep is simply not one of the things I would use a crate for. Stockdog training should not depend on gimmicks or gizmos. I believe in teaching the down-stay needed for stock work on the livestock. So do most sheepdog trainers I know. Of the many "big hats" out there, I have never seen a one use a crate to teach self-restraint around sheep. If the dog is advanced enough to sit quietly in a crate near sheep, he doesn't require a crate.

 

Luana's last response mentions the failure of a long line to teach restraint behind sheep and that it seems to build frustration in her dog. I believe a crate would have the same effect. She said earlier that his approach to sheep is too wild, which is why she wants to include the crate training to attempt to calm him. But whether it's a long line or a crate, either is simply restraining him from what he wants most - his sheep. Restraint is learned by giving him sheep and teaching him how to work, not by telling him, "You can't have sheep until you stop craving them."

 

Agility is something dogs love to do, of courss. But working sheep is something they are born to do. We're dealing with two entirely different impulses, there. Agility is exciting and fun. Herding is hard-wired into his DNA. To each his own, of course, but I have never heard of using a crate to build calm around sheep and I will advise against it.

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

Ah that makes sense why you are arguing against it. The individual doesn't need to bring the crate to the sheep, it's just a tool to teach the dog impulse control and using the technique you can transfer the skills learned.

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Ah that makes sense why you are arguing against it. The individual doesn't need to bring the crate to the sheep, it's just a tool to teach the dog impulse control and using the technique you can transfer the skills learned.

 

I admit I still don't see it. ;) But the point remains, whatever a dog does outside the gate is going to be different the minute you step into the field with the sheep. A dog may be a virtual obedience champion, but once that gate opens ... instinct takes over. That's just what young dogs do.

 

Using a crate for impulse control off sheep may very well work. I'll take your word for it that it does since I certainly have no experience in the technique. :) But I can't count the times I've heard of or seen people who are totally shocked when their well-behaved dog turns into a wild-haired ball of electric instincts the minute he heads for the sheep. But that's okay. The last thing you want to do is soften or dull those instincts. As the saying goes, you can always slow a fast dog down, but it's hard to speed a slow dog up.

 

Anyhow, I do wish you and Spillo many happy sheep-years together. He really does look like a lovely boy.

 

~ Gloria

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Crate games, for the record, has only a little bit to do with the act of crating. It isn't using the crate as a means of confinement to confine the dog and impose/enforce impulse control. It's using the crate as the LOCATION for the first steps of training impulse control. It isn't like... lock the dog in the crate (more the opposite) More like 'you try to rush out the front door, the door gets shut' only with more complexity and 'game' and behaviors.

 

Not that that has a thing to do with sheep, but worth mentioning it since you're comparing it to thing like long lines (or were) where physical restraint is what enforces impulse control or creates frustration. This isn't that.

 

Again: nothing to do with sheep, I full well agree it probably wouldn't help there, but this is more like 'it's your choice' starting with food and then becoming generalized as a 'leave a thing to get a thing' behavior. Not relying on the crate to create the control.

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Thanks, Capt Jack. I think it's one of those things I'd have to see to understand. But I can imagine a great many uses for it. As I've said. I'm all for the use of crates for many things! :)

I only brought up the long line because the OP mentioned her dog being frustrated with one, so I could imagine any use of a crate in relation to sheep would also be a source of frustration. Let them to the sheep, then work on behavior modification in the form of sheepdog training. :) Anyhow, thanks for the further info!

~ Gloria

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My trainer trusts my dog more than I do. I'm gradually learning to stop worrying about what might go wrong and just do as I'm told by someone who knows more about what my dog can and will do than I ever will.

 

I have four dogs in one and probably more I haven't discovered yet - the fairly well behaved pet, the obedience competitor, the crazy agility dog (until his lead comes off and then he's all work and focus) and a very beginner sheepdog. The only thing they have in common is a down that means stay where you are. Fortunately that transferred to sheep but the rest is irrelevant.

 

I knows it's hard to choose between trainers when you are new to anything, hard to know if the advice you are being given is appropriate. People are coming up with new and ever more complicated ways of training even the basics all the time. Decide on the relationship you want between yourself and your dog and take it from there.

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