Traits that make a good agility dog?

[CptJack]

Yeah, to be clear, what I said - Not about just BCs, either. It's what I'd look for in any breed I wanted to do sports with.

[PSmitty]

Traits I'm looking for in an agility dog: temperamentally sound, structurally sound, not noise sensitive, confident, resilient, biddable, decent amount of drive.

(all of which I found in my latest rescue!)

That's not to say that an agility champion can't be made out of a dog that doesn't have all of those qualities, it's just different. (for example, my retired agility dog)

I have no experience with puppies from breeders, but if I decided to go that route, I think Blackdawgs list is spot on.

[gonetotervs]

Just wanted to comment about protection dogs and agility -- at the last Worlds, the Italian Malinois that won bronze in jumping and the Estonian malinois that placed first in both Team events were a grand-daughter and daughter respectively of an IPO3 titled Malinois. I *am* getting my next puppy out of French Ring titled dogs and expect to get a sane, hugely biddable, drivey, pup with the sort of structure that can do agility for a decade or so.

Border Collies are wonderful; they are not the only wonderful breed out there.

[Root Beer]

 

Border Collies are wonderful; they are not the only wonderful breed out there.

 

LALALALALALALALALALALA!!!

 

I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!

 

[CptJack]

My next agility dog is very likely to be a sheltie, pap, poodle, or small terrier.

Or, you know, hang me for it: A deliberately bred for sports mutt. Not because I think it's a superior sports dog, but because I like the health testing and mixes that happen appeal to me.

 

I know. Blasphemy on several levels.

 

I have, however, discovered from handling Molly, handling Kylie, and handling a few dogs of friends I'm just much happier handling the smaller dogs. 8-12" jump heights is my happy place. I could adapt, but I don't think I want to.

 

I'll still own BCs, probably, but. Not for agility Unless they really really want to do it.

[Blackdawgs]

One of these days, I'm going to get a Staffy Bull.

[Root Beer]

I will admit it. I want an English Shepherd. For Agility.

 

But not for a while.

[Maralynn]

I'm seriously considering looking for a puppy/young BC/ACD cross in rescue for a next dog.

 

I've also considered a Dutchie...

[mum24dog]

I used to relish a challenge but in all honesty at my age I prefer the ease of training a bc. I can't face training a dog that needs a ton of motivating again. I don't feel I've anything to prove.

[Root Beer]

I don't feel I have anything to prove. I think Tessa is probably an English Shepherd and I like her ESy qualities.

 

Besides, I have always had a mixed group of Border Collies and either mutts or Tessa. I like it that way.

[CptJack]

Yeah, for me the BC *is* the challenge when it comes to agility, LOL.

[gcv-border]

I'm seriously considering looking for a puppy/young BC/ACD cross in rescue for a next dog.

 

I've also considered a Dutchie...

 

I would be open to another breed/mix for an agility dog, but don't have any preconceptions as to what kind of mix would 'push my button'. I do admit that I fostered a 6 month old pup for BRBCR a couple of years ago that I *almost* kept. She was the cutest. Looked like a small tri BC. Found as a stray on the side of a road in very remote, rural SW Virginia. 15 lbs at 6 months with a 3 inch stub for a tail that had a 100 mph wag. No fear in that dog. I brought her with me to an appointment for my other dog at the rehab vet who couldn't wait to get her hands on her and play with her. Puppies!! She said that she was one of the best conformed dogs she had seen. I know that she had some JRT in her. You could see it in her face. The other part was perhaps some BC, but another informed guess was a miniature Aussie. Whatever, she was AWESOME.

 

As far as a Dutchie: they are gorgeous. I saw young one (~15 months) at an agility trial last year. She was not competing, but just accompanied her owner - a professional trainer of BCs, Paps (her own) and other dogs. I got into a conversation with her about Dutchies, and she said all the things we might say to someone who thought they wanted a BC and we were trying to discourage them. One remark she made stuck in my mind - she said they were not for a weak handler because they were 'weaponized'. I am sure that the personalities can vary, but overall, I got the impression that they were VERY intense.

[mum24dog]

Because they look good and others have done well with them is not the best of reasons for choosing a breed.

[CptJack]

Because they look good and others have done well with them is not the best of reasons for choosing a breed.

 

Not snarky - at all - and I do agree, but what is this in response to?

[Root Beer]

Yeah, for me the BC *is* the challenge when it comes to agility, LOL.

 

I would agree. I have yet to be successful in Agility with any of my actual Border Collies.

 

Hoping Bandit and I will change that!!

[Blackdawgs]

If I wanted a shepherd or malinois, I would look to IPO/ protection lines (the alternative being kennel club) but I would want a dog at the low end of the drive scale or a washout depending on why the dog washed out.

 

I think that there is probably a perfect agility dog for each of us at any given point in our career. To some extent, the dog is molded in our image, but in the end, a dog can only run as fast as its structure. There are a lot of people out there doing agility with franken-doggies that are not structurally suited to sport. I have an acquaintance that has a small terrier with a god-awful front end. That dog is now broken beyond repair and is retired.

 

It is easy to become "overmounted". All of this involves a continual honest assessment of strengths and weaknesses, before the dog is acquired and after. "Trading-up" is very common and even expected in the horse world, but one wouldn't or shouldn't buy a Grand Prix show jumper or dressage horse after one outgrows their first pony. Usually it is an incremental trade-up. If the person bites off more than they can chew with their new mount, the trainer rides the horse (trainers love this scenario if it is a nice horse!)

 

In agility, there seem to be a lot of pony to Grand Prix in a single step transitions.

 

My guy was initially too fast for me, but its getting much better. He is fast, but there are dogs out there that are faster. I don't think that I would want a faster dog. In fact, as I get older, I would probably want a slower dog. My guy is at the high-end of the drive scale which has been a lot of fun. But, If I hadn't already survived the puppy hood and adolescence of a pit bull and worked with many shelter dogs, my current dog would have scared the crap out of me. The next dog will be more middle-of-the road (I hope).

[dogfish6]

Hmmm .... I just want a hopefully healthy Border Collie or Border Collie/Australian Cattle Dog "accident" that exhibits intelligence and some interest in teaming up with me (which I can work on further) and that will meld with my existing tribe of dogs (whoever that may be at some point in the future) that I can play with, hike with, take naps with, do a few tricks with and, if things go well, do agility with. But that'd be icing on the cake.

 

I admit that I've had a picture in my head of my "ideal" dog each and every time I've acquired a dog and only one has come close to that picture. And in the case of the last three dogs, yeah, I wanted to do agility with them, but I didn't specifically set out to get an agility dog. Because basically I need a dog I can live with.

 

Puppies are a crapshoot and I feel somewhat lucky I ended up with a puppy that grew into a dog that despite my mistakes, grew into, at eight years of age now, a sometimes reliable and always fun agility partner.

 

I prefer acquiring adolescents because, well, you have a much better idea of the personality, you can see the physicality of the dog and the best part of all, better and bigger bladders, better attention span, often done with the annoying chewing phase and an ideal age to want to learn and do stuff.

 

One of my dogs began exhibiting some rather extreme and ugly reactivity about three months after I adopted him at approximately one year of age. I had not even started any agility foundation with him, but went on to do so as I love training. For 18 months, few other people saw him as I didn't bring him to trials and our adentures were always at odd times of the day to lessen his encounters with other dogs. Some people expressed how sad they were for me that I'd never be able to trial him. I honestly didn't care as the training part was super fun and taught me to become a better handler for my other dogs. I had no intention of trialing him. He was just plain fun to train with. A couple of my instructors convinced me otherwise finally. Not gonna say it was easy, as it took a lot of management, patience, understanding, environmental awareness, etc, but this dog's love of the game won out. He's an incredible dog, not just an incredible agility dog.

 

The lesson I learned - love the dog you're with, train the dog you have. Everything else is gravy.

[CptJack]

The lesson I learned - love the dog you're with, train the dog you have. Everything else is gravy.

 

 

This is going to be long, so feel free to skip.

 

When Kylie was about 2 years old and just about to finish classes, I decided that I knew enough about agility now to know what a Real Agility Dog was, and that Kylie wasn't one. I literally brought 8 week old Molly home 2 weeks before Kylie finished her intermediate class.

 

I thank god, every day, that Molly wound up being a reactive, fearful, mess - for Kylie's sake. Without that, I honestly believe I would have stopped training Kylie. She never would have trialed. I would have put all of my focus and attention on the 'better' dog, instead of working with, loving and appreciating the dog I had.

 

For one thing, I had a really, really temperamentally pretty solid dog and that was worth more than I ever would have realized without seeing a dog who wasn't. I stopped taking that for granted. It also made me work on things that I would have previously just said weren't within my control/were inherent in the dog - like drive and speed. End result? A fairly speedy, happy, little dog who loves the game and is the partner I need and love on the agility field.

 

Molly's getting better these days. I *think* she might someday be able to trial, though I now care less -and by that I mean don't care at all. I'm seeing HER as a dog I own and love and a pet and friend and part of my family instead of an upgraded piece of sports equipment. Had you told me that was what she was to me back when I got her I would have been so offended and confident you were full of crap - but looking back? Yeah, that's about what it was.

 

I don't know where I'm going with this, even, except general agreement with the sentiment I quoted.

 

And that I really love my dogs.

 

And, okay, maybe also that don't write off the dog you already have and don't go looking for radical improvement. You may get it, you may not, and even if you do it might not be a thing you expect or actually want.

[Blackdawgs]

I admit to acquiring a dog specifically for agility. I already owned 2 and really did not want a third. I was forced to retire my heart dog due to soundness reasons and the second dog was a mental train wreck. It literally took years to get her into the ring. One day at a trial, I realized that she was holding her shit together for me. Running wasn't fun for me and probably not for her, although people said that she looked "happy". If I wanted to do agility and progress through the levels, I needed a third dog.

 

The purpose-purchased pup grew into everything that I hoped for and more. He is my first non-rescue. I am having a blast with him. If he could no longer do agility for some reason, I would still keep him and love him.

 

I suspect that the vast majority of competitors love their dogs regardless of how or why they were acquired.

[CptJack]

Radical Edit:

 

Okay, now that I'm not mobile let me try this again:

 

I don't think anything is wrong with getting a dog specifically for agility, or washing out the dog you have.

 

The issue with what I did was basically down to not knowing what I didn't know, and that what I didn't know was a LOT. There was absolutely no way I could accurately assess the dog I already had, my handling, or a new dog for agility.

When I go looking for my next dog for agility, it will be with a better understanding of what I want and need instead of 'Fast' and 'toy drive'.

[Blackdawgs]

Bottom-line, my second dog (Dog#2) was not suitable for agility and it was not for lack of trying. I could have shown her in the local CPE shows, but she would have become one of "those" dogs--going thru the motions to make mom happy.

 

One can only work with what they have and love to a point.

 

My experiences w/ Dog#2 certainly shaped the type of dog that I sought and discussed with the breeder. Dog#3, the purpose-purchased dog, started to become reactive around 5 months of age and I was able to nip it in the bud due to my experiences with Dog#2. If it wasn't for what I learned from Dog #2, Dog#3 would have grown intro a reactive mess.

 

They all teach us something

[Root Beer]

I will always laugh at the irony of Tessa!

Dean was supposed to be my "perfect Agility dog". All of my hopes were riding on him. And the noise phobia . . . well - it just was what it was. Letting go of all of those hopes was tough. (But he is my Dean Dog, and I love him 100%. He is at my feet as I type this - he is a star companion!)

And then this street dog comes along. The day I picked her up to bring her home as a foster, she actually escaped while I was putting her in the car (she managed to spring in the split second between me getting her in the crate and closing the door). Only the shelter workers could catch her by managing to "corral" her back into the shelter. Once in the car, I happened to look back at her when I stopped at a stop sign. I expected to see a terrified dog, panicked eyes, just a mess. But instead, she was very calm. For a split second my eyes met her and the vibe I got from her was, "OK, you got me . . . now what?"

I said to her out loud, "Ooooh, you're my kind of dog. It's a good thing I already have too many dogs because it would not be fair for me to live the life I would as you to lead".

When I adopted her it was because she liked my furniture and my dogs, and I didn't have the heart to put her out! I fully accepted the fact that she might never do all of the sport stuff.

Then she turned out to be my dream Agility partner. Just as I will measure all of my Freestyle dogs by Speedy, I will measure all Agility dogs by Tessa. Not in skill, per se, but in the experience that Agility has been with her.

And when I think of where she came from, and how I would NEVER have wanted to choose a dog that way - well, the joke is on me!

 

When we decided to get a puppy, of course I knew I would want to do sports with him, and I wanted to find a well-bred and sound dog.

 

But I wasn't thinking at all in terms of finding a "perfect Agility dog". I knew he would be whoever he would be and we would do whatever we would do.

I guess I've learned that they are who they are. And they all have strengths, and they all have limitations, and they all have something to teach.

 

I don't have a problem with people looking for a dog for sports, but I really did find that doing so didn't really work for me. I wanted a puppy to come and fill the enormous void that Sammie and Speedy had suddenly left in our home. Bandit did that, and then some. Sports . . . that really is icing on the cake.

[Root Beer]

 

 

 

And, okay, maybe also that don't write off the dog you already have and don't go looking for radical improvement. You may get it, you may not, and even if you do it might not be a thing you expect or actually want.

 

Sometimes exploring other opportunities can be a good option, as well.

 

Dean excelled at Rally and we did go on to earn our ARCH together. And he has done some absolutely lovely video Freestyle work.

 

A friend of mine is going to work with Dean and I on some Parkour this coming summer - just something low-key for kicks.

 

He isn't the dog I thought I wanted him to be, but I have learned to appreciate the best in him. And in his case that did mean focusing on other sports and disciplines.

[CptJack]

Sometimes exploring other opportunities can be a good option, as well.

 

Dean excelled at Rally and we did go on to earn our ARCH together. And he has done some absolutely lovely video Freestyle work.

 

A friend of mine is going to work with Dean and I on some Parkour this coming summer - just something low-key for kicks.

 

He isn't the dog I thought I wanted him to be, but I have learned to appreciate the best in him. And in his case that did mean focusing on other sports and disciplines.

 

Yep.

 

Part of my early freak out about Molly's reactivity/fear issues came down to me not knowing what to DO with her. I got her for sports and *that* wasn't going to work because of her issues, and while that was okay with me in theory she is also a really intense dog who thrives best when doing stuff. Not doing stuff (structured, intense, stuff) makes her mental health worse - noticeably.

 

I chilled out about it, about the second I realized that she will light up like a Christmas tree for a disc. Once she found 'her thing' I felt better. There is something in her life that brings her intense joy, and that's what I want for ALL of my dogs. I'm pretty sure she'll be comfortable and trialing at some point, but it just doesn't matter to me either way, anymore.

 

Kylie was different. Kylie needed some drive building and confidence boosting, but she was otherwise just a green dog. I just didn't recognize any of that, because *I* was (and am mostly) green as heck.

[Blackdawgs]

A big part of the problem is that frequently agility instruction just isn't very good. Anyone with a few agility titles and a large backyard with equipment can teach agility. And these people may be locally successful or successful with one type of dog, but there are often serious deficits in problem solving. And good luck finding an agility instructor who has knowledge of behavior.

 

When one is starting out, there is no way of knowing who is good and who sucks. And everyone has an opinion.

 

Back to the horse world analogy. When someone is ready to "trade-up" and they have been working with an instructor for a time, the instructor is almost always involved in the selection of the new horse. (Although we are all adults and sometimes we just don't listen to advice).

 

All is this is compounded by the dizzying array of choices. Should we get a Border Collie from working, sport, or AKC lines? And within these splits, there is a dizzying array of choices and opinions.

 

And now everyone is teaching an online course. One can take an on-line course on topic X from 3 people and learn 3 different methods for X.

 

I know 2 people who have decided that a certain handling system will lead them to agility nirvana. They are spending a crazy amount of time watching videos and practicing moves, but still can't put things together to run even a novice course.

 

How does a novice chose?