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Kuroiobi20134

Merle tri

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Well said, GentleLake!

A

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You're right, I have not provided much information on what we do with our dogs (because that is irrelevant to my original question), so I don't know why that was even brought up.

When I say our dogs know how to herd, I'm not talking about some herding behaviors of herding humans around the house, I mean sheep and cattle. I didn't realize I had to provide a complete description of our living situation to ask a question about genetic classification.

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Please don't get offended but this is a board that believes strongly in breeding for working ability and all that entails, and responsible breeding is a hot topic.

 

When someone comes on asking about an apparently "rare" coloration in a pup that they are considering using for future breeding, without any indication that they understand the point of breeding for working ability, it sounds like the many other people who join these boards with a question about a "candy-colored" pup or adult that they want to breed solely because the animal in question is a "nice" animal or "rare" color or whatever.

 

It is irrelevant to your original question but it is certainly relevant to the many people who read this forum, including those who have been long-time, valued contributors. A bit of background before someone mentions "breeding" is always helpful as we have seen in many other instances.

 

Please don't be offended by people who honestly have the best interests of the breed at heart when they have questions or come to conclusions *based on what you posted*. They have nothing else to go by other than what you say and what they have experienced.

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Kingfisher, first dog looks like an agouti rather than a merle (although perhaps is agouti and merle?) and the third dog is just a sable merle (technically sable is a type of agouti). Not sure of the middle dog.

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Kuroiobi, I would personally love to see video of your dogs working. I am a closet merle fan, though I have never owned one.

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Call me an idiot for arguing with a vet, but how can the third dog be a sable when the tan doesn't extend past the hocks and cheeks? All sable merles I've seen have had a minimum of a saddle back pattern, if not entirely red colored throughout.

 

Tess's Girl's female is a sable merle, although she's a clear sable I believe.

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It's no the overall coat pattern, but the banding on the hairs that make a sable tri vs a tan point tri.

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Rowanbitethecookie_zps05f38d82.jpg

 

This is actually a sable tri, though not obvious from the photo.

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Huh! I'm learning everyday!

 

My mom's pup has a couple random banded hairs around his anus. I was guessing they were just random. He was SO done with me going over him with a flash light.

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Kingfisher, there are a few spots on every dog that have some banding to the hairs. Banded hairs themselves don't make a dog agouti.

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I figured. :) I just found them interesting! He has a very silvery tail, which is why I was, ahem, up close and personal. The silvery tail is probably just over and around his supracaudal gland. His mother carried tri, so I was just curious if he tucked some tri away somewhere. I'm pretty positive he's just a B/W though. It doesn't matter a lick to me, I was just curious.

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Unlike Liz, I'm not at all in the closet about loving working merles. People here know me to be front and center in the working merle pride parade.

 

The unfortunate thing is that we see far too few of them working and have been laboring under the prejudice that they're not capable working dogs since I had mine in the mid '80s.

 

So I'll echo her request . . . I'd love to see some vid of your dogs working. It'd be great to add them to the small but very slowly increasing cadre of working merles. :)

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Hmmm - I have never paid much attention to discussions on color genetics for sables, agoutis, etc. before (i.e. those rare colorations and patterns beyond B&W, R&W, tris and merles), but now you have me thinking.

 

Can someone point me to photos of sables? Are there instructive photos at the BC Museum?

 

Also, can you describe, or list a reference for, how to specifically define a sable? Photos of or a clear description of banded hairs would be extremely helpful.

 

I am asking because I always assumed Torque was a red tri, but his undercoat coloration (for lack of a better descriptor) has always been 'off' to me. Neither does he have a tan area around his anus. He is obviously tri by facial and leg markings. Is the tan coloring under the tail required for a tri classification?

 

Thanks in advance.

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There are quite a few photos there. ;)

Yeah, I knew that there would be photos there, but I wasn't sure if they would *clearly* show what a sable is and how to distinguish it. Just trying to save some time and was hoping that someone would tell me if there were good/excellent photos that would definitively identify a sable. I have looked before (just skimming through general photos) and not all photos are clear. I guess I will take some time later and check out the site more closely since I have a specific question in mind

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Am I the only one to find it ironic that for a board so staunchly against color breeding, there seems to be an awful lot of interest in color? Do sable, lilac, slate and maltese happen naturally or is it only possible with human intent? Just my observation/curiosity, nothing more.

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I have no problem with the interest shown. Ironic, yes, possibly - but color is easily observed, and IMHO, very elemental. I know donuts are very bad for me, and I eat very, very few (even though my town has a Krispy Kreme manufacturing shop where I can buy them fresh!) but my eyes and ears come to attention, and my mouth starts watering when I see unique, brightly colored donuts on the cooking shows on TV. Can't help it.

 

Disclaimer: I ascribe to the philosophy of breeding for working ability, but still love color.

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Not me. I like black and white or black and white tri with big white collar. Tommy is white with a black and tan head and one black and brown leg and I like that, too.

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Here is a sable. I think this is the best photo that shows her color.

 

tessgroomed_zpsdjmhaxle.jpg

 

She's a sable merle, I've been told. I used to think she was cryptic merle but others have pointed out they can see the merle markings. I don't know, I'll leave that to those who know color better than me. Also, is she saddleback?

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This is Kiefer's great, great aunt Luna. She was, AFAIK, just a red and white.

 

Luna1.jpg

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Tess's Girl, that is a beautiful dog.

I love the very fact that the border collie comes in so many forms. It is precisely because they have been bred for working ability rather than looks that good border collies can be 26 pounds or 56 pounds, can have smooth or rough coats, prick or flop ears, and various color combinations. There is more variation in the working BC than there is in any other breed, and that is one of the things I love about border collies.

 

It is true that most colored dogs have been bred for color rather than for working ability and I would never buy a candy colored dog (or any other) that was not properly bred.

But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy their appearance when I see one. I think merles and sables are gorgeous, and wish that more of them showed up in working lines.

Heck, I think Salukis are beautiful. Doesn't mean I want one, but I can admire their looks from a distance.

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