I'm thinking NADAC!!

[Root Beer]

Not exclusively, but I am getting the distinct impression that Bandit would absolutely adore the NADAC style Agility courses!!

 

I think he has the speed and the potential for the distance. And, honestly, I am finding the NADAC style more appealing to me than the international handling. At least for right now.

 

These are a few clips from our Intro to Distance class, which will be wrapping up at the end of this week.

 

Check him out!!

 

[Blackdawgs]

Border Collies naturally want to go wide and work away from you. In this regard, Tess is the anomaly, not Bandit. Distance work is very natural for most Border Collies. Running courses in most venues is all about balance--- what Stuart Mah calls "obstacle and handler focus" or "city and highway driving". In the videos that I saw of Tess, she has too much handler focus. If you only emphasize NADAC-type skills with Bandit, he can go the other way (too much obstacle focus) and then you will be in a world of hurt when you go back to CPE or really any other venue that requires close (handler focus) work.

[mum24dog]

I so identify with that. I have a dog that could be directed around a simple course with little input from me. The suited me because I've never been able to run and my body language is poor. When she got into grades where handler focus was needed I was lost and had to let my daughter run her. I didn't want to slow her down to match my speed.

 

With my youngster I'm making more effort and challenging myself rather than just staying within my comfort zone.

[Root Beer]

Border Collies naturally want to go wide and work away from you. In this regard, Tess is the anomaly, not Bandit. Distance work is very natural for most Border Collies. Running courses in most venues is all about balance--- what Stuart Mah calls "obstacle and handler focus" or "city and highway driving". In the videos that I saw of Tess, she has too much handler focus. If you only emphasize NADAC-type skills with Bandit, he can go the other way (too much obstacle focus) and then you will be in a world of hurt when you go back to CPE or really any other venue that requires close (handler focus) work.

 

Oh, no, I am not only doing these particular skills with him. This is what we are focusing on right now because we are in this class. When we get into a regular live class (hoping by fall), we will get to work on the tighter stuff - a lot - because we will be working on AKC style sequencing, just as Tessa has always done in class.

 

Interestingly, I am finding that this work is quite balanced between obstacle and handler focus - maybe more than it might seem in the video. The first time I sent him out around two cones, he did get the idea that he would be doing that every time! The next time I cued a cross, he flew out around. But then he started to get the fact that I was changing things up and he started to balance his obstacle and handler focus much better.

 

I am open to learning the international handling, but I think that can come later. I think we will need it for Snooker because the CPE Snooker courses have become extremely tight.

 

On the other hand, we need these distance skills for the new, much more difficult, Jackpot gambles that we are getting. I would love to be able to get him through Jackpot without having to rely almost completely on non-traditionals.

 

The biggest thing I love about this style of training, though, is that Bandit is getting the opportunity to show me his strengths and I am learning how to tailor my handling to what he does best. It is a completely different approach from any I have taken before, but I do think that for this dog it is very appropriate.

 

Bandit is very level headed and I think he is going to prove to be extremely versatile.

 

We will run CPE, and I'd love to run some UKI with him. There are not a ton of NADAC trials available to us anymore, but there are a good handful. At this point I think we ware definitely going to go in that direction. Possibly even before he starts in CPE. I could see getting some Novice titles in NADAC with him and then going into CPE at Level 3. Maybe . . .!!

 

And I recognize that will present challenges. But I think Bandit can do it.

 

 

 

 

[Blackdawgs]

Suffice top say that I have lost many Ques due to this issue and will spend the summer on remediation. Because Border Collies tend to go wide, it puts off course obstacles into play that would not be in play with a dog that naturally wants to run with the handler.

[CptJack]

There's a lot of balance in distance handling between handler focus and obstacle focus, actually, because at the early stages - as you're seeing here - the goal is just to get them out there to do the thing, but it very quickly becomes about doing the right thing and the dog still following body language and direction. YOU may not be right there, but your handling still has to direct the dog. That means they have to come in, go out, handle direction changes that are sharp or narrow or whatever, all from 'behind the line'. Hit the contacts and stick them. It really doesn't just encourage wild running.

Not that some dogs don't just wildly run, but frankly IME, that depends more on the dog's tendency than the type of work you're doing with them.

 

But, again, I'm a NADAC person and I see a loooot of very, very good distance handling with all sorts of dogs, from labs, to bc, to tiny little ankle clinging dogs who'd like to stay with their handlers. It's interesting, and I kind of suck at it still, but I like it.

 

(Also yes, Rootbeer, come join me as a NADAC person. It gets lonely )

[Root Beer]

I'm not sure it's possible to have a dog who doesn't become too strong in some tendency.

 

I had to work very hard to get Tessa to send, and it is a skill we are still working at. And guess what she has started to do since I started working sending? Taking off course obstacles!! It cost a Q (thankfully in Standard) last week. But . . . we still need the skill, and she and I, as a team, are going to have to learn to balance out the sending with keeping more handler focus. Right now I consider it a good problem to have because we had to work so hard to get it!!

 

I could see Bandit becoming a dog who would become too careful, and somewhat sticky, if I were to put too much emphasis on highly intricate handling and close work right now. The time for that will come.

 

Remember, too, that he and I are doing a TON of close work in Rally and Freestyle. In that context, he learns to send out around a prop, and then heel right past it, staying close. I believe that work will help him in the Agility context, as well.

Frankly, I have some serious concerns about him developing too much handler focus in that work that could spill over into our Agility, but I am still going to train for those sports - intensively - because he loves both of them, and I want to pursue them with him.

 

I guess in the long run, only time will tell. I'm game!

[CptJack]

I think all dogs have strengths and weaknesses and you always have to work with what you've got and cope. I mean that's just the bottom line.

 

Well that and a speed vs precision balance. That is, however or wherever you play the game, the nature of the sport. Distance is part of that equation, too, along with stopped vs running contacts, and just how much you push on a given course.

[Root Beer]

There's a lot of balance in distance handling between handler focus and obstacle focus, actually, because at the early stages - as you're seeing here - the goal is just to get them out there to do the thing, but it very quickly becomes about doing the right thing and the dog still following body language and direction. YOU may not be right there, but your handling still has to direct the dog. That means they have to come in, go out, handle direction changes that are sharp or narrow or whatever, all from 'behind the line'. Hit the contacts and stick them. It really doesn't just encourage wild running.

 

YES!! That's exactly it!!

 

I am seeing that already. It would be easy to get him to just fly out around cones, but working a setup with four cones and doing different crosses and handling maneuvers - that takes skill that I need to develop!!

 

And that distance switch - WANT THAT!!!!

 

 

Not that some dogs don't just wildly run, but frankly IME, that depends more on the dog's tendency than the type of work you're doing with them.

 

Shoot, I see dogs running wildly in CPE. Usually Border Collies, but not always!! Those are the ones I've always sat and watched and thought, "I love Tessa"!

 

But now I see them and think, "Oh no, that may be my future!"

 

Here's the thing - after taking this class, I actually feel like that probably won't be my future!! Bandit has great potential for a beautiful balance control and speed!! For the first time I feel like we are a team!

 

 

(Also yes, Rootbeer, come join me as a NADAC person. It gets lonely )

 

It's looking like we might!!

 

Tessa can run in Novice and Bandit and work his way through the levels!!

[CptJack]

Also this, man. THIS.

 

This gives me CHILLS. I love, and I mean love, distance stuff. I NQ about 3X as often as I Q in chances (and that's in NOVICE), but I LOVE that class. It's a challenge. It's a rush. I am constantly trying to figure out how to strategize it, and that's outside even the actual distance work. We're getting better and I adore it.

 

...and see absolutely no difference in how she handles other classes, where her general tendency is to ankle cling. Except T'n'G where her tendency is more YEEHAW CONTACTS, but. That's different.

[Root Beer]

I love this discussion, BTW!!! I really enjoy comparing and contrasting these different points of view and approaches.

 

CptJack - is that one of the Extreme Games in the video above?

[CptJack]

I love this discussion, BTW!!! I really enjoy comparing and contrasting these different points of view and approaches.

 

CptJack - is that one of the Extreme Games in the video above?

It's either silver stakes at champs, or a bonus box. Nadac does the stay in the box in any class, get a 20 point q thing. I'm nowhere near there but so cool.

[Blackdawgs]

The thing is Rootbeer, you are working in a relatively confined, sterile area with 4 cones. Put the dog in a 100 x 100 ring where there are multiple off course options, add adrenaline and perhaps an adjacent ring, and things change. A lot. Especially if you are competing outdoors and don't have 4 walls that confine the dog.

 

The video is very impressive distance work, but there really is a lot of space between obstacles. The generosity of space makes a huge difference with a large dog. Now, pretend that the entire course is compressed and your dog has such a long stride that it bounces the space between obstacles or puts in 1 stride, if you are lucky. If that dog goes a hair wide and the handler is not standing there to shape the line...off course.

 

If you want to get chills, there is a German lady Sabine last name begins with a W that does incredible distance work on European type courses. She has a youtube channel

[CptJack]

Well, you know. NADAC courses are designed for distance. It's one of their big deals, you know? They deliberately have course styles that are open and allow both speed and that sort of distance handling. That's what the venue is about. Some people don't like it. That's fine. Some people do. They run NADAC and train for it, and for those sort of courses, where you have 21 feet between obstacles and there's a ton of flow and no wraps to backsides and discriminations, and directionals are the only real 'technical' handling. That's laso okay.

But I don't know many who have trouble transitioning between AKC style courses and NADAC ones and I know a ton who do both with lots of success, with big, fast dogs. Because the distance doesn't encourage the dogs to blow off their handler. It actually seems to make them *MORE* attentive.

The objective, as I said, isn't juts 'go out there and do one thing'. It's go out, stay out, and follow directions very closely. Yes, those courses allow more handling time and room with the obstacle spacing, but that doesn't mean if you're on a closer course the dogs going to go take off halfway across the ring to do what they want, in spite of not being cued to do so.

 

That's like saying teaching a dog to do a do a pause table means it's going to jump on your coffee table and lay there. it's specific, trained, behavior.

[Root Beer]

The thing is Rootbeer, you are working in a relatively confined, sterile area with 4 cones. Put the dog in a 100 x 100 ring where there are multiple off course options, add adrenaline and perhaps an adjacent ring, and things change. A lot. Especially if you are competing outdoors and don't have 4 walls that confine the dog.

 

Yes, I am aware that things change. The time will come when we will be working on actual courses - in actual ring spaces - both indoors and out. And then in competition. And it will be different.

 

But remember - before that happens, we will be working with several different instructors, both in online classes, and in-person classes. We will be working with people who do AKC and USDAA. We will be working with people who have experience with fast dogs on tighter courses.

 

We will have the opportunity to take the skills we are working on in this context and to transfer them to actual rings and courses - both open and tight. I actually had the opportunity to do that on Friday evening on a tiny little setup of three jumps and a tunnel, and I was surprised at how easily the skills transferred. And when I messed up, I knew exactly what I was doing wrong.

 

Over the summer, we will go to do open training at a place that sets out rings for both NADAC and CPE (because they host both). We will get the chance to bounce from one to the other and see what adjustments we need to make, just like we bounce from Rally (aka: sit sit sit sit sit) into Rally FrEe (aka stand stand stand stand stand) on the same night every single week.

 

I think I just may be approaching this whole thing from kind of a unique perspective.

 

I have achieved my personal Agility goal. It was the C-ATCH. Tessa and I did it and it's done. I don't feel pressed to accomplish anything in particular in Agility with Bandit - I really feel more compelled to explore some new options with him.

 

Now, I'm ready for a brand new adventure, but I'm not sure what that is going to be yet. So - I want to explore. Bandit is a master teacher and I want to see where he is going to lead. Right now it's into NADAC style training and handling. Maybe that's where we will go. I am very attracted to the idea right now.

 

But . . . I will take care not to get locked into one track. We will continue to work on skills that we will need for the other venues, too. Maybe Bandit and I will explore several different venues. Maybe our journey is more about learning and growing together than any particular title. Maybe for him and I the whole point will be the experience of each time we walk into the ring. Or maybe I will develop a particular title goal as we get into it - or several.

 

He might like tight course work (Tessa likes wider open courses, especially for jump sequences), and he will get the opportunity to find out. His preferences, once he has the experience for us to tell what they are, will be taken into account by me in competition decisions, too.

 

I am excited about this because something brand new is happening.

[Root Beer]

That's like saying teaching a dog to do a do a pause table means it's going to jump on your coffee table and lay there. it's specific, trained, behavior.

 

 

HAHAHAHA!!! I would be rolling on the floor laughing if my dog did that!!!

[Blackdawgs]

I think that the bottom line is that we tend to create the dogs that we want....I like a very brave, bold, independent, obstacle focused dog and that's what I got (to extremes) and now I need to tone him down a bit. Balance. in the hands of someone else, he may have been a very different dog. I guess that problems occur when we can't mold them to what we want--I retired a dog in part because I could not stand running her anymore after I started my current guy--she is needy and clingy. Recently, I tried do some stuff in the yard with her thinking that it might be fun to do some games with her and it was like trying to run an elephant, so her comeback lasted less than 10 minutes.

 

And, yes, 2 of my 3 dogs, have wound up on the coffee table. And quite honestly if the coffee table was strong enough, I would have used it to teach the table--I used the bed. Seriously.

[gcv-border]

Good conversation. I think most of the points have been covered - obstacle vs. handler focus, slower vs. fast dog, different styles of courses, etc.

 

Just a few comments:

I do some switching between AKC/USDAA courses and NADAC courses. For me and my dog, it has been easy to train for AKC/USDAA, then use those skills for NADAC. He is a fast dog and started out very obstacle-focused, but working on tighter courses has made him much more responsive to me - sometimes more than I am used to because I remember NOT having to support those distant obstacles. He would just go for it. Now, I have to make sure that I use a supporting arm (at the very least) or take an extra step or two more than I used to. If I don't, he turns into me - ready for the next signal.

 

I know a couple people, with faster dogs, that train more for NADAC and have trouble handling a tighter course. If you train for both, I don't see any reason why a dog wouldn't be successful at both types of courses.

 

The extreme distance handling in NADAC: the video was incredibly impressive, but I could only focus on the wide turns that distance handling results in. I love training for and executing tight turns, and for that reason, the extreme distance handling isn't my cup of tea - but I can sure appreciate the skill required.

[Blackdawgs]

I don't have a standard of reference for AKC, but USDAA courses are really getting harder, a notable difference between my current dog and my previous dog who were maybe 4 years apart. And it isn't even the same venue relative to my first agility dog who did 1-2 USDAA shows in 2007 or 2008. The courses are getting tighter and off course options abound. I've been killed a few times on a 90 degree turn out of the LONG chute--couldn't get to the front of the chute to execute a front cross and the dog drifted wide to an off course obstacle that was very intentionally placed to catch dogs that drift wide ...Off- course A-frames essentially have targets painted on their sides, etc, etc. I think that as USDAA continues to evolve (and even AKC seems to be evolving with the introduction of Premier...has anyone looked at the courses for the World Team tryouts that are occurring this weekend??) the divergence between venues will continue to grow and it may be difficult for many teams to be successful in all venues.

[gcv-border]

I don't have a standard of reference for AKC, but USDAA courses are really getting harder, a notable difference between my current dog and my previous dog who were maybe 4 years apart. And it isn't even the same venue relative to my first agility dog who did 1-2 USDAA shows in 2007 or 2008. The courses are getting tighter and off course options abound. I've been killed a few times on a 90 degree turn out of the LONG chute--couldn't get to the front of the chute to execute a front cross and the dog drifted wide to an off course obstacle that was very intentionally placed to catch dogs that drift wide ...Off- course A-frames essentially have targets painted on their sides, etc, etc. I think that as USDAA continues to evolve (and even AKC seems to be evolving with the introduction of Premier...has anyone looked at the courses for the World Team tryouts that are occurring this weekend??) the divergence between venues will continue to grow and it may be difficult for many teams to be successful in all venues.

AKC courses have also increased in difficulty - but not to the point where they replicate European courses. My understanding is that the Premier courses are designed to be closer to the courses and skills used in Europe/UK.

 

My instructor loves to design courses where the dog has to turn 90 - 180 degrees out of the tunnel.

[Root Beer]

I would say that CPE has been getting progressively tougher, as well (compared to 5+ years ago). The Snooker courses have gotten inexplicably tighter all of a sudden, the Jackpot gambles are getting more difficult, and it is getting to be a bit more difficult to gather points in the point games under some judges. This will vary judge by judge, of course. One judge I showed under recently had lots of 90 degree turns in difficult places for the very fast dogs (Tessa rocked those courses!!).

 

I am grateful that I am running Tessa, and not Maddie, now. It was a lot easier back when Maddie was running, and that was good for her.

 

Tessa and I have enjoyed the challenges as things have gotten to be more difficult. We have had to work harder and gain new skills, and that has been a great experience with her. If I end up deciding, in the end, to focus primarily on CPE with Bandit, I have no doubt that we would run into our difficulties that we would need to overcome. I am just not sure right now if that is our path.

 

Personally, I think that divergence between venues is a good thing in Agility. Different dogs have different strengths. Different handlers have different goals. This is a popular sport, and I like that there are venues that emphasize different things.

 

What I want to see when I run Bandit in Agility is that he is tapping into the best that he has within himself and is putting his heart and soul into each run. That is what I have with Tessa and it is intensely satisfying.

And with that I think I am looking for something a little bit different from the average Agility competitor. So, maybe the way I will do things with him will be a bit unconventional.

In the end, if we go through a period where he is too obstacle focused and we need to work on handler focus, that's fine. Or, if he's too handler focused and we need to work on obstacle focus, that's fine, too. Or, if he loves the long, open courses of NADAC, that's great - I will love NADAC for his sake. Or, if he prefers the more intricate work needed on tighter courses, we will go primarily into a venue that provides that and I will love that. Maybe he will adore CPE and I will take the C-ATCH journey again. Or maybe we will go for a C-ATE. And if that's the way we should go, I will love that.

 

I only know one thing right now - we are probably going to start in NADAC. That's the way it's looking right now (it's not set in stone, but I am kind of pretty sure). I will be training for both styles (since my in person classes are all AKC style), but we will probably start competing in NADAC. Tessa needs 2 more Q's for a Weavers title and 1 more for a Tunneler title. I am going to run them against each other in Novice!!

And I know that he will join Tessa and me in CPE, too. Probably not long after he gets started.

 

So . . . good things ahead!

[Blackdawgs]

We are currently revisiting the 45-90 degree turn out of particle accelerator (long straight tunnel) to jump scenario....

[CptJack]

Even NADAC is getting harder, in its own way - though, yes, it's also diverging more. The newest things there are wrapping 180 degrees and coming back toward a discrimination they've just come out of, hoops on barrels, faults for wide turns around barrels, and a lot more directional barrels even on novice courses.

 

OTOH, there has been a recent software change that gives some classes a tiny bit more time, and they are FINALLY about to start giving vets a time break in non-jumping classes.

[Root Beer]

The barrels are fascinating!!!

[CptJack]

The barrels are fascinating!!!

 

I know a lot of people despise them, but I LOVE them. Quite possibly because my dog enjoys zooming around them. I will say that they used to be used to replace curved tunnels so your dog almost always came back around them at 180 degrees, but that is no longer always the case. Sometimes they just have to go on the other side of the barrel.

 

They're kind of like giant cones, really. Sometimes you wrap 'em, sometimes you stay out around them, sometimes you get two and figure 8 them. Sometimes you have to take them clockwise, sometimes counter clockwise, sometimes it doesn't matter (sometimes it's just a send ending in a front cross, sometimes it's just a send, sometimes it's actually a switch around the thing). Sometimes there are hoops, sometimes you have to hit 1, sometimes both, sometimes there are 3 with one off the back.

 

They do some STUFF with their weird obstacles, but it's all still just about drawing a very precise path for the dog.

 

I also apparently really like hoopers, which I've only just barely stared playing with in lessons, largely because it's fast as blazes and does some odd things with hoops and path.