Agility Prospects and Early Socialization

[Cass C]

The other topic of working vs sport dogs got me thinking...

 

Do you think the early exposure and socialization to adults, kids, noises, and strange objects (like baby agility equipment and different surfaces) makes any difference in the pup's ability to handle and accept new things as they grow up?

 

I know this is something a lot of sport breeders do, but not many working breeders do, because I assume they don't really need their dogs to be exposed to a lot of those things.

 

Not looking to start a sports vs working debate... I'm just curious about the early exposure/socialization effect on puppies.

[kingfisher7151]

I think any efforts made to create well-socialized, balanced dogs is great. I'd probably do ENS and crazy socialization toys with a litter of my own.

 

But, I mostly think it's a bunch of hooey. I think most of those traits are genetic, and we just do our best to enhance them. My mom's pup is insanely confident with people, other dogs, moving surfaces, sounds, anything. And he grew up outside as soon as he was old enough to do so. And I don't think he is an exception, there are far too many dogs without a fancy upbringing who end up quite sound of temperament.

 

But I don't know, the litters who receive this treatment are more than likely dogs bred to be more wired than your average working litter. So maybe it does make a difference for them. But I think a well bred litter wouldn't need it.

 

I'd still do it with my own litter though, just to cover my bases. And because it's adorable.

[alligande]

Are you talking early stimulation when they are still with their litter or when they come home? Personally I don't think it makes much difference with a litter (I don't have any personal experience just from friends dogs) but I think it really helps when they are a bit older, the more experiences they have, the less scary the world, but I think a lot of those experiences should be away from home.

[Cass C]

Are you talking early stimulation when they are still with their litter or when they come home? Personally I don't think it makes much difference with a litter (I don't have any personal experience just from friends dogs) but I think it really helps when they are a bit older, the more experiences they have, the less scary the world, but I think a lot of those experiences should be away from home.

I'm asking about while they are still with the their litter...

[Root Beer]

I don't know. I don't think I am on board with a lot of sport folks on this one.

 

I think that such things can be overdone just as easily as they can be underdone, and that can cause another host of issues.

 

I am very much for letting puppies be puppies. It seems that puppies in their litter should be developing very naturally. Playing with littermates, playing with toys, getting to know and understand the person, or people, in the home, exploring the outdoors (once appropriate, in a safe way).

 

I knew about ENS, but I didn't particularly want it. I think Liz did a really nice job raising the litter, and I felt that Bandit was perfectly prepared to move into the life of a baby future sport partner.

 

Even once at my home, I didn't go in for the socialization onslaught that most sport trainers recommend. I didn't do so-many-new things every day (what is it like 10 new things, or something?). I took Bandit along to classes with Tessa and people passed him around, and he watched the dogs take their turns at whatever was happening in class. He got to hear a teeter slam very early on when we would pass through the room where there was an Agility class (that was important to me), but I didn't do anything with him with surfaces or anything like that until he was a little older.

 

I think that with a mentally balanced dog, such extreme early socialization isn't strictly necessary and you can end up with a dog who is prepared for the sport world through more normal interaction with the world. Of course, I wouldn't want to isolate the dog, but I just did normal interactions.

I'm glad I didn't overkill the socialization. I did little training things with Bandit and I took him around to the places I was going anyway, but he got to just be a baby dog.

 

It didn't hurt him any. Actually, I think it was good for him.

[GentleLake]

I think socialization is an important thing to do. But it's not the end all and be all that'll prevent fear issues from ever arising in every dog.C

 

Case in point: I got a border collie puppy once at 6-7 weeks old and she was well socialized from the day I brought her home. Prior to that she'd had a lot of handling in a farm family with several kids and cousins and playing outside in the farmhouse yard. There was really nothing lacking in her early months. She went with me most places, including busy craft fairs where she did just fine.

 

Bu she became an extremely fearful adult. She ran into an oven rack that I'd had out when I was making soap and it made quite a clatter. I didn't know anything about fear periods at the time but I suspect that it may have happened during one of them. She became increasingly sound sensitive until it got to the point that she'd refuse to enter the agility training building because the sound of other people using clickers terrified her.

 

I don't know anything abut my lurcher's first 6 months, but she was a well balanced dog when I first adopted her and was for the next 6-8 months after that. I spent a lot of time socializing her and she went to libraries with young kids and other dogs frequently. Then pretty abruptly sometime after she was a year old she became dog reactive. I have no idea what could have triggered it, but we've been struggling with it ever since. She's now 4 1/2.

 

So while I still believe socialization's very important and I'm doing a fair amount with Wink (no, he doesn't experience new things or places every day, but he gets to meet new people and go places a couple times a week), it's not the whole story.

[Sekah]

I don't know enough about ENS to comment. But early socialization is extremely important as far as I'm concerned. Confidence has a genetic and an environmental component, so while it's possible to have a confident dog with minimal early socialization, I'd want to stack the odds in my favour to the utmost degree I possibly can. I adore having a confident dog that takes new experiences in stride.

[Maralynn]

I am a fan a exposing pups to a variety of things. But for me that's like indoors, outdoors, different everyday surfaces, noises, objects etc rather than ENS. Kids are a big plus as well. I've read that the temperment of the dam is HUGE in the pups developement. So I'd probably be fine with any pup from an even tempered mom with great maternal instinct.

 

I did lot of visiting, traveling and new places with Kolt. I have a large extended family so exposure to a wide variety of people was simple. Differet houses, different yards, small town, Tractor Supply, etc. But also lots of "be a puppy and explore your environment". Am I positive that it made a difference? No. But I like the results of what I got. And I'd do it again.

[gcv-border]

I am with what I believe most people above have stated: a good genetic base of a solid personality can be extremely important. After that, socialization in moderation and with common sense. don't overdo it. I believe this can lay down a good foundation that will allow a dog to cope with many of life's future challenges.

[mum24dog]

I am totally with Kristine on this. My only concern with Risk was to avoid any threatening situations that might be too much for him to cope with. Other than that, everyday life and hanging out on the agility scene pretty much covered everything he needed to be familiar with.

 

I'm far more concerned about too much than too little. Over anxiety about doing everything by the book can transmit to the dog.

[diane allen]

Here's my latest experiences.

1) Boy, "sports bred" with some serious herding ancestors (yeah, I know...). Got him at 8 weeks. Prior to that, had everything you'd want a pup to have - safe exposures to lots of things. Did LOTS of "out and about" time - riding elevators, walking on every surface I could find, meeting lots and lots of people - on the trails, streets and at agility trials. He's the BEST agility dog - lots of "GO!", with a total off-switch at home (and between runs), loves everyone, loves most dogs (unless they growl at him).

 

2) Girl, rescue, mom was BC, dad was who knows what (I have a suspicion there might have been some sheltie in there - but how many shelties are running around illicitly breeding? another topic). Foster home for mom when pups were whelped was, again, everything you'd want for a youngster. After that - at least two foster homes, one failed adoption, then me. That middle period was the 2.5 to 4.5 months of age. Lovely foster home, but dog just didn't get OUT much. When I got her, she was very sweet with me pretty quickly. But did NOT like strangers, did NOT like loud vehicles (semis, motorcycles), but adapted fairly well.

 

She still isn't a big fan of folks or dogs she doesn't know, that we meet on hiking trails or anywhere else EXCEPT at agility trials! She seems to have figured out that folks there are all OK, and she'll walk right up to a stranger for a pet or especially for a treat. She's been reasonably successful in agility - not the fastest bullet out there, but more consistent that the faster boy.

 

I think her fear/hesitations are due to the fact that she didn't get out during that ever-so-important "socialization" time period (though I don't especially like that term.....yet another post!). She trusts ME, but others? Not so much. Vets are the worst. :-(

 

So, yes, I do think that getting pups out to learn about the world is important - at least for me, a non-working and agility person.

 

diane

[alligande]

I am very much with Kristine and Mum24dog on this one, I think puppies should be puppies and enjoy their time being little, I have no scientific or personal experience on this, it is just a simple gut feeling. Once they come home it is time to learn about the world that they will be living in but not in an over the top way. I have been watching Slvia Trkmans puppy diary DVD and I really appreciate her approach, basically she takes the puppy everywhere she goes, when little in a Sherpa bag so it does not have to walk very far, it gets to be dog with her dogs, goes for country walks, plays in the woods and it gets a little clicker training, but nothing heavy.

 

My plan with my new puppy is take him out and about with me, so he can experience his new world. Dogs live a different life here with me than they did in the US, even going to an agility trial can involve lots of strange experiences, so I want a confident dog who is happy to go along with what the world has to throw at him. My current dog was 4 1/2 months when I got him as a rescue, his early life was rural Pennsylvania, and when he came to me he found the world very scary, today he fakes being a confident dog, but the reality is that he trusts me that I am not going to let anything bad happen, although you can tell he sometimes questions my judgement , watching him hurl himself on an escalator to board a ferry was one time he was not happy. Being a big dog he had no choice, on the escalator or we were not going home!

 

I had the choice of puppies from 2 liters, with the same stud dog, I am hoping that my choice of mother will improve the odds of a more confident dog

"Jess is a more confident dog, workman like and gets the job done. Saying that she is not rough in any way but isn't too sensitive. Pip is more sensitive, she is more worried about doing something wrong and really wants to please."

There was an adorable tri available from Pips litter that I was very tempted by, but I had already made the decision with the help of the breeder that Jess was a better choice for the type of dog I wanted. So I am keeping my fingers crossed.

[Blackdawgs]

I did two 1 year volunteer stints at the local county shelter that services a vast land area, predominantly rural. I saw many litters of puppies and believe that fear is mostly innate. I saw pups and dogs that were amazingly stable with crappy upbringings and I saw pups that would be uphill battles with the entire litter cowering in the back of the kennels

 

I think that we should be looking for resiliency in our sports prospects. Things will scare dogs, but you want that dog to bounce back quickly and make a conscious decision that X won't hurt me and to be curious about the world. And then when the pup comes home, you do normal pup things with it. Yes, I took my pup out and about but was very cautious until he was fully vaccinated because that municipal shelter is full of disease (respiratory and there have been distemper and parvo outbreaks) and the rescue groups that pull from that shelter and adopters don't always quarantine newly released dogs like they should. We also have distemper (and rabies) in our wild life population.

 

My pup came from a breeder whose family bred dogs that worked cattle/ sheep for decades. The breeder recently moved towards goose dogs and those dogs and their offspring have to tolerate working at airports, etc. If a dog can work at an airport, it can work anywhere.

 

I know of 2 dogs (different bloodlines) that came from the same sporter breeder that (supposedly) did the super socialization thing and both dogs have significant noise and fear issues. Blah.

[Heartful]

Yes. I believe that it does help. I raised my singleton with ENS and also did a lot of other socialization and recovery exercises...ie - loud noises, sudden movement when he was too young to have a legitimate fear response...lots of rewards and counter conditioning went into that. Also counter conditioned resource guarding. He was a very bold puppy at birth and I think that is genetic...the rest of the work is just icing on the cake.

 

That said. Doing this stuff does not negate the fact that they still go through several juvenile "fear" stages. Just yesterday, at 5 1/2 months old, he walked by a small statue of Buddha that he has walked by a gazillion times...yesterday though..yesterday it was the devil LOL...but he had a good recovery which is important...and an important part of early socialization, IMO...I believe that it helps create more confident dogs who learn to think, rather than react...A dog, at any age, can have a bad experience and have that experience leave a permanent mark - especially these brilliant working dogs...

[Maralynn]

I think that doing more stuff is more important with a singleton as they don't have siblings to interact with. There is LOTS of basic stimulation and learning that happens when interacting with littermates in those early weeks. IMO, most of what ENS claims to accomplish can be done through a bit of human handling and regular littermate interaction in the early weeks.

[Root Beer]

I think that we should be looking for resiliency in our sports prospects. Things will scare dogs, but you want that dog to bounce back quickly and make a conscious decision that X won't hurt me and to be curious about the world.

 

That's the quality in Tessa that I love the most, and I think what makes her an excellent Agility partner.

 

Where did she get it? Probably from life on the streets. She had to survive. So . . . did she develop resilience because she learned how to survive, or did she survive because she is resilient? Or . . . a bit of both? Who knows? I never will. All I know is that I love her ability to bounce back and put her heart into continuing on, whether that is in training, in competition, in life, or whatever.

 

I don't know where she came from, but I would say it is highly unlikely she came from a breeder who did ENS. More likely, she was born under a shed or something and grew up in someone's backyard. She was found in an area where that sort of thing is not uncommon. Of course, I don't actually know.

 

Bandit is much more resilient than any of my dogs other than Tessa (and in the long run, he may prove to be more resilient - I see his resilience developing very nicely as he matures). I credit his breeding more than anything.

[mum24dog]

My pup's breeder says that he keeps his own pups semi feral until they start training and a more sociable bunch of dogs you couldn't wish for.

 

Makes no difference whether they end up as working, sport or pet dogs, they seem to turn out adaptable and resilient.