Very Leash Reactive

[mphillip6]

Deleted

[DutchBorderfan]

Very interested in what everyone has to say about this problem, since I have a puppy showing the same thing (in a milder form).

 

I've been working with a clicker, standing still in places that are triggering, but not too much. Every time she looks at something I click and reward, getting the attention back to me and trying to make the association that I'm more important / fun than the scary or exciting thing.

 

One thing my trainer mentioned was to constantly work on a solid recall and attention. It's not a problem that goes away in a week, and there's not 1 quick solution.

 

The clicker thing (LAT) seems to help in my own neighbourhood, but once I take her to a new area she goes nuts again :S Same problem as above: I can stand in front of her, show treats or a toy, she won't stop until the person or thing she's focusing on is out of sight.

[DutchBorderfan]

And yes, I would ignore your trainers advice about standing on the leash up to the collar. I think that will only contribute to the anxiety your dog is feeling at that moment. And I would consider getting a new trainer honestly

[mphillip6]

Deleted

[WickAndArtoo]

Definitely get a new trainer! Also there are great online courses for reactive dogs by very reputable trainers if you can't find something that works in the area you live in. As long as you have helpful techniques and use them consistently you should be able to make progress!

[mbc1963]

That is very frustrating! My old dog was reactive, but only to things that got inside a certain zone of discomfort... so I would make a wide berth around approaching dogs, people, and bikes. It sounds like your dog is reacting to motion itself, not necessarily to the actual item that's moving?

 

There are lots of really experienced folks here - maybe if you filmed a bit of his behavior people would have experience managing this specific thing?

[waffles]

The training needs to start before he is at the point of no return - not able to take treats or work with you.

 

Definitely get a new trainer. Working in person with someone who actually knows what they're doing (the trainer should have way more ideas than standing on a leash) is priceless compared to reading advice online.

 

This is not a border collie problem but a dog problem.

 

Set up situations where you can create your own distance from his triggers. Store parking lots, quiet/wide streets with sidewalks, park entrances. Basically places where you can see where people are going to walk-car to store front. You can get far enough away to work with him and not fear someone coming out of nowhere.

 

My new pup is slightly reactive (mostly just sits and wags her tail/quiet whining) when we are out as she thinks all people are there to see her. So we walk and train in places where I can somewhat control the situation.

 

Good luck and keep the patience!

[simba]

I am not a behaviourist. I am a completely inexperienced/poor dog trainer. I have no expertise. I have not seen your dog. You should get a better trainer in your area, and this is more (a) something to ask that trainer about and ( reassurance that there can be improvement.

 

I walked a dog who reacted to cars. I sat beside a road in a quiet area with no walkers, and threw a party for the dog every time that a car came. Whether she barked or not I told her 'good dog' and gave her a mixture of dog food, dog biscuits, and hot dogs (not large amounts at one time). I started off with a hungry dog, she's food-motivated anyway and I didn't feed her before we set out.

 

After one session she got it and would look at the car and look at me for treats. I wasn't looking for any particular behaviour, I literally just wanted to go 'car=biscuits' so this could have the side-effect of teaching him you *want* him to bark. I then did the same for other dogs- as soon as we see another dog I point it out to her and give her a biscuit.

 

I still have to keep an eye on her around cars, reassure her when there's a loud one etc. but she can now go to a park with on-lead dogs and walk down a street with cars. She might shake or ask to be moved away from the thing sometimes, or give a couple of barks. Before, she would lunge and snarl and scream and attack the nearest other dog.

 

Oh, and get a muzzle. Teach your dog to accept it. Better safe than sorry, always.

[chrisandgabe]

I really like the book "Click to Calm" also. You definitely need a new trainer, but I've found the techniques discussed in that book to be helpful as well. Good luck!

[D'Elle]

Click To Calm will give you good guidelines on how to deal with this. It is specifically written for people who have reactive dogs.

[alligande]

It is a very common border collie problem as they are sensitive to motion, you are not alone and nothing will have triggered it. You will find lots of old threads with great advice. Another book is controlled unleashed, get the puppy edition.

And if you want to work with a trainer - find a new one, that was terrible advice and will not help you dog.

[Luana]

hi,

Spillo was like this when he was past one years old.

I'm not a trainer, but when I got Spillo I started the obedience training as soon as possible and I had the help of a very talented trainer which is herself a border collie owner.

he is 4 now, and I learned a lot with him.

for me what worked best was teaching to heel and working at some distance.

it should be a mix of obedience (he needs to follow your lead and stay focused on you) and reassurance (so introduce him slowly to things he is scared about).

he got some corrections at times, nothing harsh, but he knows that when I say no or enough, I mean it.

at first I did the mistake to expect from him too much too soon, so do not put him in overwhelming situations that he cannot handle. for example with spillo I started too soon to go on trails with narrow path and bikes and joggers passing very often, very close.

I had to take a step back, and work on make him comfortable first. only when he got better, I did teach Spillo to run at the side of my bike, this was helpful to have him comfortable around other bikes.

when on walks he should not go ahead of you when he sees something, because at the moment he hits the end of the leash, he will react. so It is helpful to establish at which distance he is able to walk at your side even if a bit nervous (you can feel it when he takes the treats from your hand). then keep walking at this distance. it will take time, but the goal is to have him reasonably comfortable to the point that he is able to decide not to react to the stimulus and look back at you instead. if you can practice in a yard or open area where there are people and dogs passing by, this would be a good start. if you cannot get his attention when he focus on something you are already too close.

I found helpful to keep him moving, busy with some alternative behavior, but his focus had to stay on me. so if you ask to sit and stay but he keeps focusing on something else, it will not work, not for long.

It could help to desensitize him to the tense leash, so that he can learn to turn back to you every time he hits the end of the leash.

 

for the close encounters, when you cannot increase your distance moving to the side, turn and walk the opposite direction.

practice the turn and change direction often, when there is nothing in sight, so that he does not associate the turn to: something scary is going to happen.

 

if you cannot turn and change direction, just keep a short leash (but not tense) and pass by even if he is reacting, then give some distance and follow the other dog for a while.

 

reward when he makes good decisions. and keep calm

 

of course those are just suggestions, based of my own experience with my dog Spillo; the best is to find a good trainer that can work with you and Merlin in person.

 

 

Luana

[GentleLake]

You've gotten very good advice so far (from the people here, not the trainer) so I'm not going to repeat that.

 

You mention though the he isn't "super treat motivated." Maybe you need to try better, more tempting treats. The highest value treats tend to be meat and/or the stinkiest things around. You might buy some cheap cuts of beef or chicken on sale or marked down because they're close to expiration. Roast it lightly and cut into pieces. Cheese is often tempting and liverwurst is doggy crack. Thin it slightly with warm water and put it in a refillable tube (sold online for camping or travel --GoToob is one brand]. Clean Run also sells them.) Or chicken nuggets or the meatballs you buy frozen are also very high value.

 

You still have to work on the threshold issue and it's great that you're aware when he's just starting to feel edgy. Making the treats more valuable may help you in the process.

 

Best wishes. Reactivity ain't fun. (Speaking from experience.)

 

And welcome to the Boards.

[DutchBorderfan]

My thoughts exactly! I don't want to put him in a position where he feels even more threatened than he already does! I am definitely looking for a new trainer.

 

With the attention part you mentioned, my only issue is that once he sees whatever is moving, I can't get his attention back until he can't see it anymore (even before he starts the reactivity). I literally have to shove the treat in his mouth when he first notices the trigger, and he will then chew almost like it's an afterthought while staring them down. I then pull him away and he keeps looking backwards, whining and pulling to go back, until they are out of sight. He isn't super treat motivated, so I've tried his favorite toy also, but that also doesn't seem to work the best.

 

Thanks for the response! I will definitely start working more on recall and getting his attention when there aren't as many triggers around.

 

I've talked to a good trainer about this exact thing.

 

There is a threshold, and once your dog is passed it, it's gonna be hard to find treats or toys to distract him. I can't either with my little puppy. She is super motivated for food, but when she goes cuckoo outside she has no focus on that at all, let alone on me.

 

So when he's crossed the threshold, best thing is to stay calm, and slowly remove him from that situation. Don't let people pet him (it should not be reinforced). Go some place quieter, let him sit, stay, lay down, etc. for a few treats. And from there try to pick up the walk again.

 

I have no idea if this next bit is sound advice, but when I'm in the quieter area to regain her focus, and she starts whining (for no reason, because I've removed her from the trigger), I am a little tough on her and do reprimand her: so I raise my voice and let her know, very clearly, it's not acceptable to whine for no reason. It seems to help as well.

 

And don't forget to breathe You'll get there for sure.

[Sekah]

Here's a brief graphic/article that helps address building focus around distractions. I swear by it to help with reactivity as well as general self control, but depending on the severity of the reactivity it may not (yet) be appropriate. I leave it to you and your new trainer to discuss. I've had really, really good success with it.

 

http://sinfiltrator.com/r.php?p=62SAmIkU

[Shandula]

Excellent advice, but I wanted to give you a suggestion via treats. Have you tried any sort of fish treats? Fish treats tend to stink to high heaven, and since most treats are chicken/turkey/peanut butter flavoured, they seem to have some novelty to them.

I use them at work in my training classes and the dogs go crazy for it.

[DutchBorderfan]

Here's a brief graphic/article that helps address building focus around distractions. I swear by it to help with reactivity as well as general self control, but depending on the severity of the reactivity it may not (yet) be appropriate. I leave it to you and your new trainer to discuss. I've had really, really good success with it.

 

http://sinfiltrator.com/r.php?p=62SAmIkU

 

This is great! I've read all about this approach, but never found such a short and clear explanation.

 

I've been applying exactly this for the last two weeks, and she is showing progress. Some triggers are not triggers anymore, some triggers are less of a trigger. We actually went to the spot in the park where she was screaming like crazy 10 days ago, and now she was OK and a lot less stressed out. yay!

 

It sometimes takes every ounce of patience I have though. I guess it's true what they say: you don't get the dog you want, but the dog you need

[mbc1963]

That is a really excellent graphic! I wish I'd had it 11 years ago.

[mphillip6]

Deleted

[DutchBorderfan]

aww what a happy face! So cute.

 

Good luck with him!

[WickAndArtoo]

Wow what a beautiful dog!!!! He is so gorgeous our BC is sensitive like that too, it can be bad sometimes because I'll accidentally use the tone of voice I use for our (very hard) Aussie GSD mix. Also if that's the case then I would definitely find a different trainer that understands soft dogs like your sweet little Merlin.

[WickAndArtoo]

Also I agree it is so nice to know that I am not alone in these issues too! It is so comforting to read all these kind and supportive responses... Wish I had a group like this for when I was first figuring it out :/

[alligande]

Thank you all so much for the responses! It makes me feel better to know I'm not alone with this. I am definitely going to order the books recommended, and I've already started looking for a new trainer! I have to be very careful with how I approach things with Merlin, since he is so incredibly sensitive that just saying the word "No" (not yelling, just being firm) literally makes him cower to the ground with his ears back, and he just shuts down and won't continue with anything for a good half hour (but it has no effect when he is being reactive). When I had him in obedience class, the trainer (same one that said to stand on the leash) was talking about heel, and she said it in a louder deep voice to show ways to get your dogs attention, and Merlin, who up til then was having fun and interacting, completely shut down and went and laid down in a corner and wouldn't move for the remainder of the class. So now I can't use the word heel around him anymore

 

If you met my boy you would think he was a confident dog, but he and I know he is faking it. When we are doing agility either training or competing he carries himself like he owns the world, but one raised voice (barely raised at that) or glare from me and I can shut him down. He can get very frustrated with me and barks at me, and I had a trainer get very cross with because I would not yell at him, and I just could not through to her that he was big whimp and I did not want him hating agility. There is a handling technique that we can't do, because I got cross when was barking at me, and the particular movement causes him to shutdown.

At home my husband can't cheer or get cross at sport on TV without him cringing, and we have to argue in soft voices, which really means we just can't have an argument, arguing in gentle voices just makes me end up laughing it is so ridiculous.

[simba]

Also I agree it is so nice to know that I am not alone in these issues too! It is so comforting to read all these kind and supportive responses... Wish I had a group like this for when I was first figuring it out :/

You're far from alone, we're all with you!

 

Sometimes when I see someone who's walking a reactive dog and is obviously mortified, going "oh god everyone's looking at me" I want to say to them "Look, a substantial portion of them are probably going 'well done you for training your dog and having it on-leash safely' and 'Oh, been there, poor mite.'" I know sometimes when I have my reactive dog I feel like the entire world is looking at me and tutting.

[WickAndArtoo]

You're far from alone, we're all with you!

 

Sometimes when I see someone who's walking a reactive dog and is obviously mortified, going "oh god everyone's looking at me" I want to say to them "Look, a substantial portion of them are probably going 'well done you for training your dog and having it on-leash safely' and 'Oh, been there, poor mite.'" I know sometimes when I have my reactive dog I feel like the entire world is looking at me and tutting.

You are so kind, thank you ... It really really helps get through the rough patches to know I'm not alone.