Two Problems

[Chloe Marie]

Our BC is 3 months old and we are having two issues. The first and more important one is nipping/biting. She will nip/bite some times while just trying to pet her or when my two boys run she likes to run with them but jumps at them at nips at them (left a few bruises on them). We tell her NO or NO BITE aggressively when she does it and when she is behaving try to show her postive reinforcement. Is there something else we could be doing to eliminate this issue? Is it just a phase of age and teething?

 

The second issue is going potty. For the most part she is fantastic and has only a few incidents in the house. My problem is that when we let her out to go potty she will just sit on the porch and not go on her own she will only go if we go out and walk around with her which we do most of the time but there are some times when we have something else going on and can't walk with her. The few times she has gone in the house are because she would not go on her own.

 

One more question not really a problem but rather some interest in the breed and training. I need some recommended reading or websites for building a obstacle course or working with her on agility training. She is very active and I think this might help with problem 1 above.

[BCCrazy?]

Is there something else we could be doing to eliminate this issue?

Don't let the kids run, the dog is doing what it was bred to do, herd.

she will only go if we go out and walk around with her which we do most of the time but there are some times when we have something else going on and can't walk with her. The few times she has gone in the house are because she would not go on her own.

You need to go out with her EVERY time. If you re-read your post I think you already know that.

She is very active and I think this might help with problem 1 above.

She is far too young to be doing agility, however, it is not too early to be teaching her focus and touch games. Which are very interactive and will keep her little mind BUSY!

[Kat's Dogs]

Alright, she is not "far to young" to start in Agility. as long as you only do puppy stuff until she is a year or older. Focus and attention are good, plus she needs to learn all of the basics (solid obedience commands)

 

At Toys-R-Us they have some kiddy tunnels. You can teach her to tunnel! If you get a lot of them, you can even have her do a tunnel course! All a tunnel is is running - no problem there, just don't over work her.

If you want to do more, you can stick two poles in the ground (about 4-5' apart) and make her go straight through them. This is a jump. The dog learns to go to through the two poles. only later can you actually start to add the jump part.

 

You don't want to do weave poles, planks (of any kind) jumping, contacts ect. until she is MUCH older and her body can handle it.

 

Mostly what BCCrazy said for the other things, for the nipping - she is herding. For the going out - and you NEED to go out with her, at least for another few months if not more.

 

If you want to try and stop the nipping, bitter apple spray or (what works best for pups) whenever you feel her teeth, yelp. Make a high pitched "yelp" sound. That is what a mother dog would do to her pups. It really works, we did for all three of our dogs and they NEVER bite.

Still, she will really want to chase and nip at running "sheep", that is just what they do.

 

Good luck with your pup!

[Chloe Marie]

Thanks for the answers and help. We are new to the BC breed but are very eager to work with her, we already see a level of intelligence with her unlike any other breed we have had in the past.

 

Its hard to get a 3 and 4 year old to not run when they are outside they are as full of energy as the dog is. I realize now though that we are training 3 animals (2 boys and puppy) and it is an interesting experience as they all 3 like to try your patience. I will work on the yelp it sounds like a good idea to try.

 

Any suggestions on the focus and touch games?

 

I have read posts about their BC loving to play tug, I notice this in our pup as well but in reading a couple of books on BC's was discouraged from engaging (mainly allowing my boys) in it so as to not allow dominance or aggression with them. Is this true or is it OK to allow it?

[MaggieDog]

One of the best ways to work with kids and a dog on 'no bite' is to tell the kids it's a game - if the puppy nips then they are to see how fast they can stop running and be a tree. They can even make it a contest, kind of like 'red light, green light' or 'mother may I?'

 

By having them stop running and ignore the puppy, they will learn how to behave with a dog and the pup will learn the fun stops when she nips.

 

On the tug game - if you play tug it must be with clear rules, so little kids should not attempt it. The rules I use are: I start and end the game when I want and you must drop the toy when I ask.

 

To prevent issues between the pup and the kids, have them help w/ obedience training by asking for sits, downs, and come - this should teach her to listen to everyone and makes the kids feel special too. Also make sure the pup can get away from the boys - a crate that is strictly for the dog and that the boys are instructed and prevented from accessing is a good solution.

[Miztiki]

Hi! I would definately not leave a 3 or 4 year old unsupervised with your pup, or any dog for that matter. They are all too young and don't know how to read eachother. They also don't know when enough is enough. I'd recommend you keep their time together limited and under your direct supervision or you'll likely regret it as time goes by. You wouldn't believe the thousands of BC owners who give a dog up because of kid issues.

 

Another thing I would recommend is only taking her outside when you are with her. Pups need to go out often and I understand you might not always have time to wait around out there for her to do her business. Teach her to potty on command and that won't be an issue anymore. BC's left to their own devices will generally find some way to get into trouble. They might begin fence fighting with other dogs or becoming obsessed with squirrels or digging or chewing on your house even. Potty on command is a great thing to teach them and it's easy. If you don't know how then just ask and we'll send some links your way.

 

How disciplined is she? That's another thing, and NILIF is important. They are so dang smart that if you don't watch it, next thing you know they'll be controlling YOU instead of the other way around. She's only 3 months old but even at her age she should have some rules and boundaries.

 

You mentioned her nipping and leaving a bruise. You'll also want to work on her bite inhibition so that she learns how to control those teeth. Do it now because it's difficult and dangerous to teach an adult dog. Again, just ask if you need clarification or help.

 

Owning a Border Collie requires alot more time and effort than most other breeds. They are alot of dog! You can probably see some of that already. It's only going to get worse unless you take control of it now. Do that and you'll have the best friend you ever thought was possible. They really are exceptional!

[juliepoudrier]

I just want to point out that chasing/nipping behavior is not the same as herding behavior. People are too quick to dismiss chasing/nipping as herding when in fact it is simply chasing and nipping. I would not tolerate a youngster running at and nipping/biting sheep. That's not to say it never happens, but one of two results would follow: 1. pup would be put up as too immature to properly work sheep (i.e., if the sheep are running away from the youngster and the pup can't get around to their heads to stop them and so ends up grabbing at other parts of the sheep, then the pup isn't old enough to be working those sheep) or 2. pup would be taught that it needs to back off the sheep and that nipping/biting is only for self preservation or to teach a recalcitrant animal (one challening or fighting the dog) that the dog must be obeyed.

 

That said, I agree with the poster who said that you simply shouldn't let the kids run around the pup. Even 8-9 year olds will forget themselves and run and get bit (I had that happen with my very responsible 9 y.o. neighbor once). Children that young should not be left unsupervised around any dog, old or young. There's too great a chance of one or the other getting hurt, and bad experiences at such a young age can be carried through life for both child and pup. Children that young can't be expected to consistently and properly correct the pup for misbehavior or to understand that the difference between misbehavior and other behavior.

 

J.

[BeezSK]

We started our dog in a puppy agility class when she was 4 months old. All we worked on was sits, downs, stays, tunnels and the chute. Weaves that were spread VERY wide apart. And the jumps were setup but they just laid the bars on the ground so the puppy would have to step over them (helps to make them realize they have back legs). We also did the pause 'table'. I don't know if you can call it a table when it's only 4 inches off the ground.

It definitely helped reinforce and work on our training and provided the pup with a safe, supervised outlet for her energy.

[AfterThought]

I too started my BC in formal puppy agility classes when she was 4mths old. Mostly did flat work - get in, turn, get out, go, side, touching targets etc etc. (Actually, I started teaching her how to target plastic lids immediately after I got her at 8 weeks!) Also did some tunnels and chutes and working with jumps without the pole. Eg: doing turns and rear crosses around a jump stand. We also did the channelling method with weave poles(make sure the "channel" is at least twice the width of your dog). Starting foundation early definitely sets your dog up for future success!

[Dixie_Girl]

I agree, herding and running and nipping are two different things. With my 12yo (at the time) grandson, Jackson chased him down and nipped at his pants. When my son had his dalmation here, she could out run Jackson, he was only 6 mos old, but could not out manuver him! He would herd her into a corner of the yard and would not let her go til I would give the "That'll do", and not once would he nip her. I finally got my grandson to understand not to let him nip at him the first time he put a pair of shorts on! Now at one year I have a 7 and 9 yr old here too and he does not ever nip them no matter how much they run around, but outside when they run he will herd them!

[Chloe Marie]

This all a lot of great advice. We definately want to get it under control now before it becomes to hard to make changes later, that is why I am so determined to find the best/proper way of handling her. Her nipping while running is a little better, but her biting while petting or showing her attention is getting old, we are trying the ignoring her and yelping techniques when she does it but sometimes she gets agitated at us and starts biting harder and more often to get the attention.

 

Something else I notcied about her is that with us in the house she is not as hyper but as soon as someone else comes over (nephews, parents, etc) she goes spastic towards them trying to get their attention and affection.

 

I am working with my boys though on how to deal with and handle her when she gets rough with them and again it is fun trying to train all 3 of them.

[Barb Scott]

BeesSK writes:

And the jumps were setup but they just laid the bars on the ground so the puppy would have to step over them (helps to make them realize they have back legs).

 

Seems like I read an article in CleanRun by an awesome agility trainer that said this would only encourage bar knocking later on. She recommended jumping a young dog at elbow height (when it was ready to jump) and then quickly moving it up. I gave all my back issues of Clean Run away so I can't give the exact issue.

Barb S

[Miztiki]

Again I need to ask how disciplined she is. Your latest post (biting while petting/showing attention) still makes me wonder if you have set enough rules and boundaries for her. Such behavior should not be tolerated but it's one of those things that spill over from other areas.

 

Do you just give her her food? Or make her do something first? Do you pet her whenever she asks? Or do you make her do something first? How much is she allowed to get away with? Do you allow her to beg when you eat? Do you allow her to rush out the door? Pull on the leash?

 

These are just some examples. Through these and things like them you teach her self control and respect for you. If you brought her to my house I can guarantee you that she would not bite me whether I was petting her or clipping her nails or anything. I wouldn't hurt her at all (that's counter-productive) but she would not do it. Click on the link in my sig line for Fynne's Dogster page for details with a similar problem.

 

How socialized is she? That could be a big factor for her behavior when people come over. BC's need to be heavily socialized for a long time and throughout the different phases of their lives (young pup, older pup, teenager, young adult, full grown adult, etc.).

 

I am really happy to see that you are determined to do your best by her! I wish more people were like you. Too many just can't be bothered. They expect a perfect dog but don't want to put any effort into them. They are not a "just add water" breed, that's for sure!

[Barb Scott]

Miztki writes:

Do you just give her her food? Or make her do something first?

 

This is my pet peeve. Miztiki, do you ever sit down and just enjoy a meal? All 7 of my BCs are fed twice a day--they just get to eat...they are well socialized and participate in agility, frisbee, and dockdogs, but we let them eat in peace! They go to obedience classes, are expected to behave in public, get along with each other etc., but their meals are provided gratis. Even people on food stamps (or WIC) are allowed to eat

[MaggieDog]

Barb,

 

I don't know what exactly you're thinking Miztiki means, but the way I interpret her comment (and NILIF) is more along the lines of teaching the dog to say "please". My dog eats in peace, but she must sit nicely before she gets her food, just as I was taught to wait until everyone at the table was served before I began eating my dinner.

[Miztiki]

Continue reading Barb. "These are just some examples". Why this would peeve you I don't know. The point I was making to the poster is that not having enough rules and boundaries could explain some of the problems they are having. Your dogs have rules and boundaries in many other areas, so feeding is a freebie for them, and that's 100% fine.

 

Many people, including myself, use food (among other things) as a way of teaching our dogs self control and respect. This peeves you?

 

Boy is allowed on the couch whenever he wants, except when I'm sitting on it and eating. Other people don't allow their dogs on the furniture. Should I let this peeve me?

 

How do people on food stamps have anything to do with this?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand where you are coming from Barb. Could you explain?

[Barb Scott]

Many people, including myself, use food (among other things) as a way of teaching our dogs self control and respect. This peeves you?

 

It does!!! Also, it peeves me when I watch Animal Planet (Heroes) and they pick up a starving dog, arrest the owner for neglect, and then do a behavior test with a fake arm and take food away from the dog; if it snaps at the arm they humanely euthanize it because its food aggressive.

 

I have no problem with "the among other things", but I think every dog deserves food and shelter. Would you tie your dog out in the elements to teach control and respect? I think not. So withholding food is no different. I use food to teach behaviors, not self control and respect.

 

I mentioned food stamps alluding to everyone's right to nourishment. At least in our state, you do not have to do anything to receive food stamps (other than paperwork).

 

Barb

[Miztiki]

Barb, I think you're totally misunderstanding the context in which I'm speaking.

 

I am against withholding food too, and would have a peeve with anyone that did.

 

What I'm talking about is teaching a dog self control, respect, manners, things like that.

 

Take Fynne for instance. Did what she wanted, when she wanted, for her 2 1/2 years of life.

 

I used *all* opportunities to teach her things. I taught her manners with food too. Instead of just giving her her food I would have her sit first. She sat, I gave her the food. Remember that she would jump all over us when we first got her, not to mention demand attention, be bossy, totally ignore us, etc. We were completely irrelevent when she first came. Having her sit was just one way out of many to make myself relevent to her.

 

I wouldn't let Fynne just push her way out the door either. I taught her to sit, and eventually wait, before I would open the door. Same concept.

 

When you play frisbee with your dogs I bet you have some rules. That's the same concept also.

 

Now do you see what I was saying?

[Miztiki]

p.s. The hungry dog and fake arm thing used to tick me off also, but not now. It's not that those dogs can't be rehabilitated (or just fed for a while and tested again). It's that they are so overwhelmed with dogs that only the best of the best are kept from euthanization. If they had more time, funds, room, and people to adopt then I'm 100% sure they wouldn't immediately write those dogs off. It's sad but what can they do?

[Barb Scott]

Just one more question...I've been trying to figure out your avatar for months. What is it?

Barb

[Miztiki]

 

The cat scratched him and I took a pic and blew it up to see if it scratched his eyeball. Look at the inside corner and you can see the scratch, both above and below the corner.

 

I thought it looked pretty cool so put it in my avatar.

[Allie Oop]

I'm glad you posted the picture of your avatar. I thought it was a bird's nest. (I'll go put my glasses on now.)

 

I think it's pretty cool, as well.

[Tassie]

On the OP's biting when being petted etc. question... Given the pup's age, she is likely coming up to teething. At this stage, I always make sure I have PLENTY of permitted chewing items always within reach. If the pup starts biting etc., use the growly "Uhuh" to interrupt the behavior and immediately substitute a chew item - empty plastic soda bottle, milk carton, whatever and praise the pup when she chews on that - every time. In a couple minutes, try again with what you were doing. Rinse and repeat. The idea is that you're accepting the pup's need to chew, but redirecting away from humans and on to appropriate objects.

 

IMHO, it's important not to do anything more than interrupt the behavior - if you go on about it to the pup, she just gets more wound up.

 

Try also, when you are handling her, to keep your voices really slow and calming - dogs are so cued in to tone of voice. If the pup gets too over the top, I would put her in her crate/playpen if she has one, until she calms down again.

[Barb Scott]

Miztiki!

Thanks for the enlarged photo. I was thinking it was some sort of ocean creature. Very clear now that I know what it is.

Barb S

[abbies_mumma]

i just thought id use this thread for my question.

abbie used to nip my ankles all the time, even if i didnt run. i tryed "NO", newspaper , grabbing her and making her sit for a few seconds/minutes to calm or putting her lead on. none of these worked and the nupping just kept getting worse. i had bruises and cuts all over my legs. it was especially bad because at the off leash dog oval i jog for cross country running training. but back to the point. what i found worked best (or should i say worked) was ignoring her. i'd just stop as soon as her teeth hit my leg. sometimes she would keep jumping around me and trying to provoke me but she worked out that nipping got her no where.

although after saying all that, a few months later after abbie didnt nip or bite for a while she nipped my mums leg and drew blood. the cut is now infected and mum is NOT happy. especially not happy with me!

how can i stop her? should i just keep doing what i used to do and ignore her? my mums really worried that abbie will bite a little kid but abbie hardly ever nips anymore. she only does it when she gets hypo or really excited.

thanks.