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Scotch Collie making a comeback

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What mum24dog said! The true "standard" for the Border Collie is totally about what it does and how it does it, not what it looks like in appearance. That's where the KC goes wrong, rewarding appearance and discounting ability.

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By the way, I was at a clinic where there was a wonderful English Shepherd - black and white like a typical Border Collie, a bit stockier and very upright, and a nicer dog you would never meet. Calm, sociable but politely reserved, lots of stock sense, and just an all-around great farm dog that could bring in the stock and help in the paddock, play with and watch the children, guard the premises, and be a part of someone's life, family, and livelihood.

 

He didn't have much of an outrun but with training he was picking up the concept very well as he naturally wanted to go around his stock and fetch. And he had a nice drive started. He was just a very impressive dog and I surely wouldn't mind having had one like him in my working pack.

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I love English Shepherds. I actually believe Tessa might be one.

 

Based on the descriptions I have read about them, their typical personality traits fit her to a tee. She acts nothing like a Border Collie, honestly, and, although she is a little smaller than the typical English Shepherd, I see a lot of more of her look in them than I do in most Border Collies.

 

She could be an oddly bred Border Collie, but she is definitely, as the English Shepherd people say, ES-y.

 

I am considering one as a future Agility dog, actually. Not in the near future, but someday. I love her style in the Agility ring, and from the few videos I have seen of ES's in Agility, their running style seems to be very similar to hers.

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There's an ES male in my area who's probably less than 40 lbs. Small guy for an ES, threw me for a loop when I first met him. From his size I thought he might be border collie, but his tri markings were so clear and sharp, not like most tri border collies. And he's just slightly heavier boned than most border collies.

 

I have a friend who has 3 ESes. Quite a bit larger than most border collies. 2 of them I like very much are puppy mill rescues. The third I think may be from one of "those" breeders (the type referenced in the link Donald posted). Nice dog but as quirky as any border collie. Needs structure and routine or he becomes very stressed. Did amazingly well in SAR training.

 

I've actually started to wonder if Tansy might be an ES mix lurcher rather than border collie. Color makes more sense (she's sable) and her skull's broader and flatter than Bodhi's and many border collies'.

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I'm late to this thread but I don't see on the site any requirement for a video of the dog working. This is from the registry rules page:

 

3 photographs front, left, and right profile.

Club membership, only members is good standing can register dogs

Completed and signed veterinary certificate

 

Says nothing about working ability or a video. I clicked on about ten of the dog profiles in the database. I found two that said "yes" under "working dog?". But nothing further about what they do. Just one said the dog learned by watching them. ?

 

It sounds like the emphasis is strongly placed on appearance and not a high level of working ability. Just hanging around a farm would qualify my two as working dogs. ;)

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I don't think you get the point. The real border collie has no breed standard beyond what it should be bred to do, and for good reason. All that nonsense has no bearing on whether a dog is a bc or not.

But Scotch Collies are not Border Collies. They're not trying to make Border Collies.

Why should they be held to the same standards if they're not Border Collies?

General purpose farm collie. That's all they need to be.

I'm done guys. You can't compare this breed to a BC and that seems to be all anyone is wanting to do.

I just posted this because I thought people would find it interesting.

I'm going to go enjoy my collie pup.

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You can't compare this breed to a BC and that seems to be all anyone is wanting to do.

I just posted this because I thought people would find it interesting.

 

You posted it on a border collie forum under [border collie] Politics and Culture. What did you expect?

 

If you didn't want us to talk about how it relates to border collies, I would have expected it to be in Coffee Break, a heading for non-border collie subjects.

 

But to set the record straight, I didn't compare Scotch collies to border collies. I was talking about what I see as a contradiction to the supposed aims of recreating Scotch collies as a working farm dog but not requiring proof of work in order to bring a dog into this new registry. In fact, border collies don't even come into the discussion until well into the second page.

 

I do hope you enjoy your puppy and I respect everyone's choice to get the breed that suits them. ;)

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Nice looking pup, and he does have the look of the old-time farm dogs you often see on old postcards.

 

The breed concept and the traits described sound a lot like the ones prized in the English Shepherd. It'll be interesting to see how similar or how dissimilar the dogs produced turn out to be from the English Shepherd if/as the project progresses.

 

Sorry to hear about Finn, but glad you found Tweed and hope he'll be a wonderful dog for you.

 

Thanks for posting.

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But Scotch Collies are not Border Collies. They're not trying to make Border Collies.

Why should they be held to the same standards if they're not Border Collies?

General purpose farm collie. That's all they need to be.

I'm done guys. You can't compare this breed to a BC and that seems to be all anyone is wanting to do.

I just posted this because I thought people would find it interesting.

I'm going to go enjoy my collie pup.

No it's not going to be exactly the same but the point is that if you want to create a working dog you forget about appearance. There's far too much emphasis on it in the breed standard you posted.

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What Roxanne said. Scotch Collies (and English Shepherds, as they've entered the discussion) are dogs that, like Border Collies, should be bred for what they are or should be, not what they look like. That is the point I believe everyone is trying to make, and it seems this registry might be placing emphasis on looks. not instinct and behavior. If they do, they might be encouraging propagating dogs that look like the traditional Scotch Collie but that won't necessarily be the traditional Scotch Collie. I think that's simply the point people are trying to make.

 

And no one is looking down on your lovely young dog in any way. What a beauty! The dog I grew up with was one-of-a-kind, and may have been a Border Collie, an English Shepherd, a Scotch Collie, or a combination of breeds. The vet called her "an upstate farm collie" and that covered a variety of multipurpose, useful, family and farm dogs.

 

I hope you enjoy yours as much as our family enjoyed ours.

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Donald don't sell the farm Border collie too short on hanging with the kids. Out this way there are many tales of the dog that saved the kids from the charging mama cow, or owners from bulls, hogs etc. Granted they are getting fewer and farther between as the breed is changing

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Dear Doggers,

 

I've heard several credible stories of Border Collies saving their owner from a charging cow. Cited one in Nop's Trials. But: as the Ferguson Police learned: to charge is not the same as keeping the peace - which was what that Wisconsin English Shepherd was doing.

 

Donald McCaig

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I have experienced one such incident, but I felt that it was half hearted on the bull's account so does not count. However I do know of a young kelpie that did save his owner and her daughter from a bull and lost her life doing so.

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Our dog Rocket, half Border Collie and half Aussie, took on an angry mother cow who was trying her best to protect her pink-eye-afflicted days old calf from Ed's efforts to treat her. That cow had Ed down and out, and was determined to put him in the ground. Rocket (and our son) went after that cow and drove her off. I am sure our son could not have done that alone. We credited Rocket with saving Ed's life and/or physical health that day.

 

Another day, our bull at the time decided it would be jolly good fun to rough Ed up. He did not count on Rocket's reaction when he pawed, shook his head, and advanced on Ed. Rocket raced out (like a rocket), latched on to the bull's nose, and went for a merry-go-round ride as that bull spun in circles trying to throw him off. When the bull had spun himself too dizzy to spin any more and the ride came to a stop, Rocket let go and dropped to the ground. Both he and the bull were quite dizzy and a little shaky on their feet. But Rocket had had a very good time and the bull had not. Ed was safe, and that bull never made a wrong move again.

 

One night feeding cattle in brutal conditions here (temps close to zero and wind blowing gustily), we took the old Explorer out because it was too cold for the dogs. We parked the car at the fence with the back hatch open so they were available but largely sheltered from the elements. Ed was at the fence about to feed when the bull came from within the cows and began to menace him. All I said was, "Dan." He leaped from the car, went under the fence, went straight for the bull and gave him a very solid nose grip, and drove him to the back of the cow herd. Then he returned (I'll swear he was smiling, just like Rocket, all those years ago) to Ed, came under the fence, and put himself in the Explorer. He kept a close eye on the proceedings but that bull did not show his face again. I don't think he ever chose to face Dan again. Meanwhile, the cows were all relaxed as Dan had made it perfectly clear that he knew who was causing trouble and who wasn't, and he was only interested in dealing with the troublemaker.

 

On the other hand, a normally brave and bold Aussie that worked our cattle all his useful life sat and watched as an angry mother cow knocked me down and rubbed me into the ground. When she let me up and I moved, she hit me again and sent me over a fence. The dog never moved to do a thing to help in spite of my calls and cries. I would never have guessed that he would not have come to my aid. I still wonder why not.

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Hum, I can think of two things, and I bring them up because I have experienced them myself with my own dogs.

One is- Maybe he did not want to take a pounding like you were.

Two is if he was sensitive to yelling- maybe he thought he should stay put because he was in the 'wrong'

 

These reasons I have thought about in my own work- and it makes me look at my dogs carefully, and try to be very truthful with myself.

My dogs that work with me must not care if they get pounded, they must get up and go back in there. And they must not care about loud noises or yelling. must be able to work all day

 

Are all my dogs like this- no- I only have three that are. Jake and Joe and Tick

 

And with these qualities come other things that might be hard to work with.

 

All these dogs are stubborn, pushy, and forward.

They are a border collie, Kelpie and Hanging tree.

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This was our Aussie who normally was very bold and assertive. We were out in the open and not in a place where there was a lot of pressure. He was not a sensitive dog. I have thought long and hard about what happened, and never been able to come up with an answer that was reasonable to me, knowing the situation and the dog.

 

He was always a dog that didn't quit except for once when he was kicked in the side, and it really hurt. This incidence had nothing in common with the day I needed help so I never associated the two.

 

There was some reason and I have no idea what it was. Too bad he couldn't speak English and tell me.

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The farmer I got Kipp from had a story about how his right hand dog took on a bull and likely saved his life. I saw the dog at demos a few times. Calm and solid but friendly around people. Serious, driven and tough with stock. Probably the best combination of work ethic and temperament that I've seen in a Border Collie. Kipp inherited a lot of that.

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A man I knew only through him being a participant at a few cattledog clinics we both attended had an Australian Cattle Dog. They just did not click in several clinics with a particular clinician. They came to a clinic with Elvin Kopp, a well-known Border Collie handler and clinician from Canada. His approach to training was very different from that of the first clinician, calm, sensible, and patient. The difference in how the ACD and his handler worked together was visible in just two days of the clinic.

 

I saw them both at another Elvin Kopp clinic but they were not participating this time. The handler was broken and bent, using a cane to help himself walk, with his dog Buddy by his side. The story? The man, who worked the yards at auction, was attacked in the lane one day by a cow who was hell-bent on killing him. She would have done so if Buddy hadn't been there. He drove her off and saved his owner from being mauled to death. He spent several months in the hospital, recovering from broken bones and internal injuries.

 

He knew he owed being alive to his good dog. He said that no matter what happened, Buddy would have a home for the rest of his life and whatever care he needed. He certainly earned it.

 

I know we've veered from the original topic but I've enjoyed the stories people have shared throughout this topic.

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Not in the same league as these stories at all. In fact, I am a little ashamed of telling it.

 

But I have a dog who is elderly now and has always been (rightly) afraid of cattle. I got home one day, when she was young, and the cantankerous bullock was out. Not dangerous like the others mentioned here, 'hell bent on killing' or anything, but a bit aggressive. Now, it was around the time of day when all the little kids would be coming down the road on foot to come home from school this way. No-one was around to help me. So I opened the door and the dog rushed out to greet me and got recruited.

 

This isn't a collie. This is a small terrier, westie or scottie sized if you can picture it. I picked up my bag, she came with me, and between us we got the bullock back in. She did most of the work- she got it by the nose and ended up bearing the brunt of the attempts at squishing, headbutting, kicking etc.* Once it was in she waited while I fixed that part of the fence. I don't owe my life to her. But because I could count on her, we managed to avoid a large animal-small children situation that could have potentially gone badly, and managed to do a job that I couldn't have done by myself. And she faced up to something she was terrified of, and did various things I asked her to despite that fear.

 

And then people ask why I let the now smelly, elderly dog on my lap. Or talk about how they don't like small useless dogs. You can see why people would have had 'useful' dogs for cattle or sheep well before there was any selection for ability in that area- and how that selection might have got started.

 

*She dodged them, though, fortunately, without being hurt.

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She was every bit a hero, helping you to prevent the possibility of something that could have been tragic for someone. Whether it's in large or small ways, dogs like this are priceless.

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That's right. Your dog had courage, grit and threw herself in. She got the job done, even though it wasn't the job her genes were shuffled to do. Be proud of this story. Be very proud of your dog.

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I loved Donald's description of the English Shepherd he observed as a peacekeeper. I had a dog like that back in the day, and I never knew quite how to describe his approach to stock; now I do. He was a rough (Lassie) collie from (bless me Father for I have sinned) a show kennel. If I went out about half way across the field with him, he could then do a decent enough out-saunter and bring my flock of about 12 -15 ewes to me from a 10-ish acre field, and drive them pretty much wherever I asked him to within that familiar field, provided I was within about a 100 feet (not yards) of him. His lackadaisical approach would have gotten us laughed off a novice course at a sheepdog trial, but that dog was a genius at handling all sorts of sheep in tight spaces. He'd just calmly ask combative, or panicky, or just tired-of-this-crap sheep to please calmly walk down that blind alley, and they'd say "Sure. If you say so." Among the group of hobby herders/hobby wool growers that I hung out with he was the go-to dog to move sheep into and out of pens and chutes they most definitely didn't want to go into or out of on shearing and hoof trimming and vaccinating days. At the AHBA Ranch Dog trials that I played around in, sheep that would terrorize a few otherwise pretty decent border collies and some more "assertive" aussies and cattle dogs would just re-enact the scene from Babe and cheerfully exit pens and walk down alleys, and through foot baths, and into and out of trailers for my peacekeeper. Over a half dozen years with him we found ourselves in a lot of tight spaces with sheep I really didn't trust. Would he have bravely come between me and a charging sheep? I dunno. I give him a lot of credit for the fact that I never had to find out. I really miss him.

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I have been very thankful for Border Collies stepping in when they sense I need help, even when I have given them ' no you stay here'. In particular my first bc saved my butt from a cow when I was checking on her calf. The cow had me down and grinding me into the dirt. Luke came running from the barn got between her and I did a jump grab and hang on her nose. She swung around and he continued at her so I was able to get up and out of the way.

 

He at the least saved me from broken bones and quite possible saved my life. He and I were home alone so I had no chance of getting human help. That day and a couple other incidences have taught me Never go in a pasture without a good dog, even with sheep.

 

Yes Luke earned his place for life. Not a great sheep dog, better with cattle. Didn't really matter if he worked another day in his life, he accompanied out to the pasture every day for years and his sheer presence changed the attitude of the stock. He passed away this Nov at 16, one of the happiest dogs I have known.

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