Agility advice needed. I don't know what to do next.

[LauraV]

Ok. So I just posted about the go to treat previously. The treat I'm using isn't the problem. It's the instructor. Peter does fine the first class of half. The second, a switch goes off and everything is more interesting than me or the obsticals. He runs around and sniffs the ground. The instructor continously talks to us as we are running the course and doesn't zip it. She claims I'm the one stressing him out but it's not me. It's her. When she isn't there he does so well. When she is, well, I never know what I'm going to get out of him. He loves class, but I don't know what to do. I love looked at other places in the area and they all do 2x2 weave and we do WAM (which is also my personal preference). Do I say something to our current instructor? Do I find a different training facility? I'm just at a loss and I don't know what to do. I would love to hear from someone on here who has had a problem with an instructor or IS an instructor. Please help. You guys always have great advice.

[mum24dog]

I'm not sure what is different about the first half of the class. Are you working on your own without instruction? If so, maybe your instructor is right and your dog is picking up on the fact that you don't like the way your instructor trains rather than him having problem with the instructor directly? Maybe your classes are too long and that's why he's switching off. Half an hour is enough for concentrated work for many dogs. What's WAM?

[LauraV]

The first half she isn't as involved. The second part, she is. We are not working on our own. Classes as 45 minutes and there are 4 dogs in the class. She talks loudly as we are running the course to "instruct" us. WAM is weave o magic where the poles are slanted.

[LauraV]

Also, he switches off when we do the same thing over and over. She has us to jump jump tunnel, jump jump tunnel and I think he just gets bored of it. When you put contact obsticals and weaves in the mix he is fine.

[gcv-border]

There are quite a few things that are a possibility:

 

He could be distracted by the instructor, but *you* could be the one that is distracted - which in turn is affecting him. Personally, if the instructor was 'instructing' me while I was running the course, I know that my timing and signals would be off - which in turn, would definitely affect how my dog ran.

 

Talking while going through the course: If you train that way, your dog will be used to it. If not, then the dog will be distracted. I know one instructor who believes that one can talk to the dog anytime on the course, even when it is going over a jump, without bothering the dog. Another instructor has always told me that the reason my dog drops bars is because I talk to him while he jumps - so he adjusts in mid-air, resulting in a dropped bar. Logically, I have to agree that your dog will become used to however you train (silent or talking). You may want to mix it up when training on your own if you think it is bothering your dog that much.

 

I don't know how old your dog is, but if you are continuously interacting with him and asking him to perform for the entire class (45 - 60 minutes?), I would think he would lose desire and concentration after a while. Try and take some breaks and either play with him or let him sniff away from the class so he can relax and regroup and return with more concentration.

 

Weave training: I have used the WAMs. Didn't like them. I have played around with the 2 X 2s. I wasn't impressed with them either, but I don't think I gave them an honest chance. I like channels.

 

I guess I have always had pretty flexible instructors because if a dog is having a problem with one thing, we will try something else - but it is your responsibility, as the handler/owner, to bring the issue to the attention of the instructor if you feel that she is missing it. Hopefully she will respond with alternate suggestions for resolving your problem.

[LauraV]

Peter is 2 years old. We give him breaks when it isn't his turn, and that isn't helping either. Our instructor yells advice as we are running the course which throws him off. I feel like I cannot talk to her about options because she thinks she knows it all. Like today (the 35 minute mark of class) he was just tired and she told me no, he is stressed out. I know my dog but she thinks she knows him better.

[CptJack]

I honestly think there are too many variables to be sure that the dog's response is to the instructor.

He is 2 years old.

He is in a class that demands a lot from him and 'breaks between exercises' are not BREAKS. BEING IN THE CLASS is taxing for him.

 

YOU are going to have an affect on him and that means if you are responding or reacting to her or stressed by the instruction it will be affecting him.

Honestly, of all those scenarios? The instructor stressing him out because she's instructing you on the course is, IMO, the least likely. He isn't responding to her cues, he's just getting wild.

I just. It's possible and it's worth asking her to zip it, but frankly if it works i'd still suspect it's because *you* are not getting distracted and stressed. By her talking or because you expect it to work and aren't stressing about what he's going to do.

 

I do agree it's probably not the treat. It's probably a 2 year old dog who's in a 60 minute class (and with only 4 dogs? He's getting frequent turns), having his brain fry a little bit and has an owner who is stressed out by both his behaving AND the instructor and is responding by stressing high and getting wilder and nuttier.

[LauraV]

When I say breaks between exercises I mean I take him out of the building and let him do what he wants while we are outside. He is a sensitive dog. Her yelling what we need to do from the sidelines is what breaks him.

[chene]

Actually, the big red flag to me here is how certain you are of exactly what it is that is causing your dog's problem. Usually if someone is certain of something that you can't possibly be certain of, it's an indication that we're not getting the whole picture.
We aren't mind readers. The world has hundreds of variables at a time (and more than usual in an agility setting), plenty of which our dog is aware of and we aren't. There is no way to do anything but guess at what is causing a dog to act a certain way. You need to keep an open mind about what is causing the issue if you hope to solve it. You may know your dog best, but your instructor knows dog training best. You've worked with however many dogs you've owned, your instructor has worked with a lot more and seen a lot more reactions. I'm not saying either one of your is right or wrong, I'm saying that just deciding "this is why my dog is shutting down, my instructor is wrong" is counterproductive.

Why don't you try telling your instructor that yelling advice while you run the course is distracting you? Then see what happens. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the issue is. Try shifting around few different things to solve it without worrying about trying to fix exactly what you think is causing the distraction. You never know what will work, because different things work for different reasons.

[LauraV]

Here's the thing. When she isn't there, he is a much calmer dog even when we first walk in. He doesn't cry, bark, get anxious. When she is there, even when I'm not, the problem occurs. She hasnt been there twice since we started. Ironically, those are the days he does his best. This is why I know she is the problem. I never asked for you to be a mind reader. I was just asking for options and opinions based off the information I've provided. I am not being counter productive. I've taken everything I know on consideration and my two options are talking to her about it or going to a different place. That was what my post was asking for. Not if what I'm doing may be wrong. My fiance who is there notices the same thing I do. This instructor is the only variable causing him to not wanting to do the job.

[chene]

When I said we're not mind readers, I meant we as dog owners. You can't read your dog's mind. It's a pretty big jump to assume that the exact thing that's bothering your dog is your instructor giving advice during the course, just because things are different when she's around. Post hoc fallacy, right? Just because A occurs after B doesn't mean B caused A. Because there aren't just two variables. There are so many variables that one person's presence can influence, especially the instructor. Off the top of my head, your dog could be thrown off because:

-He's reacting to the instructor's presence, regardless of whether she's yelling advice.
-You're reacting to the instructor presence (you've made it pretty clear you have some negative feelings towards her already)
-Another dog is reacting differently in the instructor's presence or to her yelling
-Your instructor sets up the course slightly differently when she's there
-Your instructor makes you repeat things more often than other instructors and your dog is bored and uninterested regardless of whether your instructor is yelling advice.
-Your instructor stands close to the course to give advice and the smell of her unspayed female is distracting your dog.

I could list a hundred more things that change very slightly when your instructor is there, each more seemingly obscure than the last. But the things that are a big change to your dog aren't always the same as things that are a big change to you. And any of them, or any combination could be affecting your dog. You resenting your instructor when you have no idea if it's her fault isn't helping anyone.

[Blackdawgs]

Speaking as someone who has blown through a few agility instructors....

 

These things go bad when 1) the student starts to outgrow the instructor; 2) the student starts to question the instructor; 3) there are philosophical issues; 4) there are respect issues

 

Anyone with a yard of agility equipment and a dog with some titles can teach agility....what are this person's qualifications to teach?...does this person have a track record of successfully working with multiple breeds and most importantly dogs like yours?

 

Speaking from experience, agility instructors are not necessarily knowledgeable or even nice (to people and dogs).

 

So why not try another class/ instructor and see if that situation better suits you? Although this could be very confusing for beginners, there is no law that says that you have to work with only 1 person. However, be aware that if your instructor finds out that you are working with someone else, you may get kicked out of your current class.

 

As for the weaves, believe me as you progress, you will encounter much bigger and more important issues than how to teach a dog the weaves. If you don't like the way someone teaches an exercise, just opt out of that exercise in class and work on that thing on your own. I used 2x2s, the rest of class used guides...so I did not weave in class until the guides were removed...my dog was weaving long before the rest of the class.

 

Dogs do react to the environment. I recently left a situation and I have been amazed at the change in my dog's behavior...he is much MUCH less reactive at shows. The instructor was/is very volatile, there was another student in the class that screamed incessantly at her dog, the instructor's personal dogs barked and aggressed at the fence the entire hour....I don't know for certain, if my dog was reacting to the environment or if I was reacting to the environment and my dog was reacting to me--regardless my dog is much more relaxed in his new class and at shows.

 

Agility can be a very emotional thing for student's and instructors. I have seen students reduced to tears in classes.....I've seen instructors become screaming lunatics.....remember this is agility, not cancer, no one will die if things don't go as you wish.

 

The student-teacher/mentor interaction is a relationship and like other relationships, the chemistry is there or not. There is no shame in an amicable divorce (it is best to not burn bridges).

[CptJack]

Leaving the class and doing what he wants from 1-5 minutes still isn't really a break. He's still in a strange place, with strange smells. He's still mentally 'on' and processing and doing stuff. Try *crating* him between exercises, or, heck, try shortening the time he's there.

When my agility dog was 2 I had 20 minutes of useful instruction time or being in the building before she flagged, and about 30 minutes before she stood there and stared at me rather than wanting to do anything and if forced trudged through exercises. Heck, even now 30 minutes of work? She's done. My instructor WATCHED her brain fritz yesterday at a private lesson. She arrived happy and on and focused, then she got started to get distracted and go off to sniff things in the field and then finally she stood there and refused to do anything else. Because that's how SHE handles stress - ie: Low, not high.

 

Is this the case with your dog? I dunno. I only know what was up with my dog after lots of problem solving and guesswork and in retrospect and after seeing a similar pattern where I ask too much of her/her to brain too long. Being uncrated too long at trials, too many runs in a day, etc.

 

I'm not saying that's wht's going on, but you REALLY need to definitively problem solve rather than assume. Talk to the instructor, ask about changing some of those variables, see what happens. Move to a different class even, if you want. But don't BLAME her, that's just not helpful and frankly it sets you up to stop problem solving.

[CptJack]

If you don't like the way someone teaches an exercise, just opt out of that exercise in class and work on that thing on your own

 

I do this all the time, for the record. I have never done weaves with my instructor. Not because I don't like her method but because timing. Our club is NADAC, our group classes are all venues and introduces things I don't need. I wander off into the corner while they're working those things (like the teeter). If my dog is stressing I have always looked at her and gone "we're taking a break" and sat things out or skipped turns. My private lessons are largely directed by what I want to be working on. She adjusts and adapts to my dog and she listens to what I have to say about my dog.

 

I love that woman, and I respect her. I've screwed up some making assumptions about my dog/the reasons things were happening, and I suspect more than once she's known it, but. She listens and lets me work it out. IF you don't have THAT, then by all means try somewhere else.

[Blackdawgs]

I would crate the dog during "breaks" after he has a chance to potty. Put the crate in a quiet place where he can't see the ring. Dogs spend hours in their crates shows and need to learn to relax in their crates. Class is a perfect place to practice.

 

As for getting bored doing the same sequence over and over, if he is successful the first time, you can make things more interesting by changing the way that you handle: lead out vs no lead out; vary the distance of the lead out (one jump, 2 jumps, etc); switching the side that you start; varying the types of crosses; adding wraps; changing the side of the tunnel that you send the dog to.......

[Blackdawgs]

Also, there is no magic formula in agility....problem solving is a must...if your instructor can't help you solve problems, then you need to solve them yourself or find an instructor that is better at problem solving.

 

Looking back at my failed agility instructor relationships, all failed miserably at problem solving.

[alligande]

If you are not happy with an instructor then I would try another regardless of style of weave poles. The club I teach at has all the options, 2x2 weaves, channels and the v-weaves, and we mix it up. I personally like 2x2 to get a dog thinking about how to work its way down the poles, how it's body works, we like to use channels for speed, and I found v-weaves gave my dog great foot work. V-weaves we have found difficult to teach from the beginning as most of the dogs want to jump the poles, and the little dogs struggle with the whole thing.

I have no idea why your dog gets distracted but I really don't think the type of weave pole training a facility offers should be the make-or break for choosing a trainer, go sit in some classes and get a feel for other trainers and see if one would be a better fit.

[Cass C]

I agree that it's probably not the trainer, but either like my dog Lyka your dog has no interest in being in a class that long or you don't like the trainer and the dog is feeding off your (or your fiancé's) energy about if. Yelling and other distractions are to be expected in agility, so if that bothers you than you or your dog you should really try to work through that. If you decide to switch instructors just know that can actually set you back and make things more confusing for you and the dog. I also agree that you should crate your dog between exercises, because that is a long time to expect your dog to be on task with no down time.

[rushdoggie]

Even at age 2, a 45 minute class is a looong time. Its a long time to concentrate, learn new things, and deal with pressure especially for a sensitive dog.

 

You have said this class is the best/only option. You could try the following:

 

1. take a break for a session. Sometimes if you go do something else for 6 weeks and come back the things that seem to stress your dog get better

 

2. Ask your instructor to hold her verbal "help" until after you run because its an issue for you. It doesn't matter if she agrees, as the instructor she needs to take your needs into account

 

3. Ignore her when she yells, smile, jackpot really awesome food and throw toys and make it so her yelling from the sidelines will be a cue that good stuff is happening

 

4 Tell her you have a conflict and want to attend the first part of the class so your dog gets some instruction but will have to leave early

 

 

As someone who instructs (not agility, other dog sports), I do ask that you consider what others say. Its possible your instructor is wrong, and you are right and shes a bad fit for you. But depending on her skills and experience, she may be the correct one. Be honest with yourself, is she making you mad so you ignore what she says? Is she just being rude to you so you get justifiably angry? Is your dog really upset at her, or your reaction to her?

 

I have had many students who refused to try something I suggested for ages, until they finally tried it the way I suggested and found I was right and it works. I have one know who has leash and treat management problems, and I know she gets very tired of hearing me tell her that she is confusing her dog with her timing because her leash is too big to manage and she delivers treats all over the floor as she drops them and fumbles. I was even able to show her once by loaning her my leash and treats, and it worked beautifully then the next week she came back with her giant thick slippery leash and boiled chicken and wrapped string cheese.

 

Make sure you are not "that student."

 

If the answer is: really its her, then get some equipment and do online instruction. Find somewhere else to train.

[Root Beer]

My response is going to be somewhat different from everyone else's because I went through something similar within the last year.

I tried and tried and tried to stick with an instructor, whose style does not gel with mine, and it didn't end up going anywhere good. I ended up with a young dog who stressed immediately when he saw Agility equipment on the floor. Nice.

And was it me, not her? No. I've been at this sport for a good many years. Bandit is my 4th Agility dog. I have managed to come to resolutions with instructors who do things a bit differently from myself for years. This time, with this person, I tried my best, and it just wasn't going to work.

I eventually did elect to leave the class.

Personally, I would never tolerate an instructor yelling instructions as I'm running. I don't care whether my dog likes it or not. No instructor has ever done that, and I would take serious issue with one who did. My instructors have always allowed the students in class to run, and then given feedback after. Or, perhaps, asked the student to break off, and then spoken to them. As a professional educator - even more than as a dog trainer - I have to say that is ridiculously inappropriate pedagogy. Few people will learn well with someone yelling at them as they try to work on a skill.

Leaving the class meant that I had to give up something that I wanted very badly - weekly access to Agility equipment.

But in the end it came to the point where I was only making matters worse for Bandit by continuing, and so I did leave. I have had to contrive quite a bit to continue with him, but I have managed to do so, and he is coming along. I do some private lessons, I do as much work at home as we can, and I finally did figure out a way to be able to work with him on the equipment that I don't have on a more regular basis.

 

It's still not a perfect situation, and I still have to make some sacrifices that I would rather not have to make in order to continue with him, but it is far better than butting heads with an instructor whose approach is completely wrong both for myself and my dog.

 

So, maybe you can't use WAM if you go elsewhere. Maybe that would be worth it? Or . . . could you get rental time at your current facility where you could use the WAM and train the weaves on your own, while taking classes at the other facility? Could you rent WAM or find a set second hand to purchase to train on at home?

 

It really comes down to making the decision that is best for your dog, and for you. The fact that someone is an "Agility instructor" does not make that person qualified to make decisions for your dog, especially when you see something that person does not.

 

If that were happening in a class that I was taking, I'd be out of there if the instructor and I could not come to a mutual agreement about the issue . . . I don't pay an instructor to shout at me while I'm trying to work with my dog. I can't do what I need to do in order to support my dog if someone is constantly tittering at me.

BTW, today Bandit had a private lesson and the difference in his attitude is night and day. His eyes are shining, he clearly views our time in the ring with Agility equipment as something fun. He walked out there and went right to work . . . happily.

I did right by my dog. I'd do it again.

[Blackdawgs]

It could be a case of a know-it-all student or there really could be a problem with the instructor.

 

What is your experience with agility and what are this instructor's qualifications?

 

There is some really shitty instruction out there. Sometimes we are forced to put it with it because there is no other choice. And then it is best to play deaf and dumb. After the run: "I'm sorry, I didn't hear you [or understand]."

 

I've been around the block a few times and like Rootbeer, I've pulled dogs out of classes and gone without for a time (or worked on my own) because I felt that the class was damaging in some way.

 

It is best before leaving a class or if you sense a situation starting to go bad, to get your ducks in a row, so there is something to go to if your are forced to leave suddenly.

 

There was a dog in the class that I just left...it was terrified of the instructor and for good reason. I am sure that the dog's frantic behavior is in large part due to its fear of the instructor, but the owner was still taking the dog to class because the location was convenient.

 

Don't be that person, either.

[Root Beer]

Our instructor yells advice as we are running the course which throws him off. I feel like I cannot talk to her about options because she thinks she knows it all. Like today (the 35 minute mark of class) he was just tired and she told me no, he is stressed out. I know my dog but she thinks she knows him better.

 

OK. Sometimes you have to play things from a different angle.

 

Have you pointed out to your instructor that her "giving instructions" while you are running is problematic for YOU? Maybe if you request that she hold her feedback until after you finish because it messes YOU up when you are running, she would be willing to accommodate?

 

It may only be indirectly true. But . . . if her yelling is shutting your dog down, that is messing you up, too.

 

You could play this angle. I doubt she is going to claim to know how you learn best even if she is certain she knows what is right for your dog.

 

It's an option you could try.

 

And if she is not willing to try to accommodate you as a learner . . . then I would go elsewhere.

 

Another perspective.

[LauraV]

Root beer I want to thank you for understanding my situation. I definitely wanted to hear from someone who went through something similar. It is hard to type out everything you have gone through and expect people to understand as if it was them going through it. She is the only instructor who yells as we are running. The others give feedback after. Thank you for explaining what you went through and how you handled it. I'm going to try to use the information you provided and use it in my situation. Trying to have a young dog who is new to the sport follow commands as I'm getting commands yelled at me is not going to work. How is he suppose to follow me if I'm hearing what to do as I'm running? That's not logical. It's stressful for the dog who is trying to understand what I want when I don't know what I want because she changes what I'm doing as I run through the course. That's why we do walk throughs. You imagine where the dog should be in relation to you (not always where they end up, of course). So trying to arrange in the middle of running it because she's yelling on the side isn't going to work. All BCs I've owned have been sensitive one way or another. So as a dog having your handler trying to switch what they are doing and hearing yelling isn't ok for him. Trust me. I've blamed myself enough for his reactions. I've been down the what am I doing wrong path. But when I see him understand what I want as I'm running with him and completing 12 obsticals with no problem when she is not around, I second guess the way she is instructing. We have all had different experiences with different dogs and instructors.I know I may have come off like the parent who blames the child for their mistakes. But I notice the cause and effect that has been going on.

[LauraV]

For me previous post, i meant to say I know that I may have come off like the parent blaming the teacher for the students mistakes.*

[Root Beer]

That was part of what was happening with us. We weren't running whole courses, but even in the exercises that we were doing, I was getting constant negative feedback as I was trying to work. And it was affecting both myself and my dog.

I am not opposed to be told what I am doing wrong (although I appreciate a spot of positive critique mixed in, at least most of the time), but tell me afterward so I can change it on the next rep - or, we can discuss the matter if I stand by my particular choice. Not while I am in the middle of trying something with a dog who is clearly stressed, and half disengaged. He has never been that way in any of the other classes I've taken with him . . .

But . . . yelling would be a dealbreaker for me. Nobody should be yelling, unless there is a potentially dangerous situation. Or a handler is yelling with excitement over a dog's success, or something like that.

 

Yes, there is yelling at Agility trials, but people aren't yelling instructions at you while you are trying to run!!

And, dogs at trials aren't in the early stages of learning.

There is plenty of time to add in distractions once the dog understands the game.