What to look for when your dog first meets sheep?

[Lawgirl]

I hope I have posted this in the correct forum.

 

I had posted on an earlier topic that I was going to be taking my BC boys to a herding school early this year. I have booked in for private lessons on a Saturday and Sunday later this month. I am very excited about introducing my boys to sheep.

 

I did not grow up on a farm, have never attended a sheep herding trial, have only seen a few videos on you tube, so I have no idea what I should be looking for to work out if my dogs are any good. Or do I just wait and see what the instructor tells me?

 

Do all dogs with potential "switch on" suddenly or is it more of a gradual awakening?

 

The venue is about 4 and a half hours from my home, although only 20 minutes from my mother's house, so this is not going to be an easy thing to do. I do not know if I want to trial with them if it turns out one of them has real potential. I have recently started agility trialling with one dog.

 

I guess what I want to know is how I can tell if I should be making the effort to train them regularly, or whether it will just be a fun thing to do for my boys when I happen to be visiting my mother. I can see there is a potential conflict of interest for me to ask the trainer that, although I would hope they would be honest with me. I guess as a lawyer I am just not always the most trusting.

 

Should I try to get some video of each dog and post it here for people to give me feedback?

 

(For anyone who is interested, the place I am going is on facebook as Urban Herding. I would love to know what more experienced people think of them.)

[mum24dog]

I can't comment on the outfit you are panning to go to but see that you are in Australia so assume that finding somewhere near home could be difficult.

 

No, dogs don't necessarily turn on immediately. My trainer has had dogs that have been slow starters that have overtaken others that were keen from the start.

 

I'm a newbie but it is obvious to me that training little and often is the way to go if we want to make good progress. My lessons are nominally half an hour and my dog is very tired by the end. I have yet to work out a training schedule.

 

I thought long and hard as to whether to try it and wouldn't have done it out of curiosity since doing so without following through could be dangerous in an area like mine where sheep are everywhere. Your situation is probably different.

[chrisandgabe]

I'll definitely be following this thread. I brought Gabe for his first official "lesson" after his instinct test, and the instructor says he's doing well, and some other people who were there for their lesson also said he was doing really well, and gave me some insight as to what I was looking at that was good (according to them, he was keeping good distance from the sheep, which meant he was confident of his ability to get to them if he needs to without being on top of them from what I remember). Mostly what I'm going on is that the instructor says "good dog" and occasionally "good man" to him. But I'd love to know what I'm looking at a little better.

[dsmbc]

If your trainer should be able to tell you what they see in your dog and give you an honest assessment. generally, trainers are not going to waste your time and will put the well being of their sheep first. it is true that some dogs take longer to "turn on", so may need more than one exposure to sheep. This is especially true with pups/young dogs.

 

The things your trainer will be looking for are things like sustained interest in the sheep, how the dog approaches the sheep (does the dog bust straight in or are they going around the sheep or something else), what are the natural instincts/talents of the dog, are they trying to find balance, is the dog settling in and being thoughtful, etc.

 

What I would suggest is ask the trainer before they take your dog in what they are looking for. And have them explain what's going on when your dog is in there. Also, there may be some video in these boards of youngs dogs first time you can look at. essentially every dog is going to be different, so just have fun with it.

[Lawgirl]

Thank you for your response dsmbc. Based on what you are saying, I think the trainer might be good. They have told me in messages that the lessons will be divided between some theory, a sheepdog demonstration and then bringing out the instinct of my dogs. So hopefully they can show what a good dog looks like in the paddock and explain what they are looking for before my boys go in the round pen for the first time.

Mum24dog, the area I live in, while it is a large country town (OK, maybe a city of about 25,000 people), is more dairy and forestry then sheep grazing land. There are some sheep around, but I live in the middle of the town, so I am not too worried about my dogs getting ideas about sheep. I was going to take all three of my boys, but had second thoughts about how I was going to manage that with one person, and have decided to just take the two who seem to have stronger focus. That way they can take it in turns and have a break.

I really wish there was somewhere closer I could go, but this place and another place near Adelaide, our state capital (still 4+ hours away), are the closest places I have found, and at least I have some accommodation close to Urban Herding. I would love to make some herding part of my boys' regular routine, like obedience school, but short of buying a property and some sheep, that is not going to happen.

I will see how they go and report back, but I can see that I will have so much to learn about herding. Well, they say no knowledge is ever wasted, and learning keeps your brain young!

 

EDITED to correct grammar

[geonni banner]

First off, I think my 2 experiences with a dog on sheep will go down as two of the most memorable days of my life. I wish I could do it more, but can't afford it, nor do I have a likely dog. The one I took to sheep was a rescue, there to have her potential assessed - as much as it could be, with so little exposure - because I wanted a working home for her. She turned on right away and showed promise, and fortunately, the perfect situation turned up for her. She's happy as a clam in her new home.

 

But I would not take a collie to sheep if I were not serious about real - that is to say, very regular and serious - training. I mean no disrespect to you when I say this, but sheep are not dog toys. Unless you want to commit to regular training, with a goal of shaping and working a stock dog, I would let it go.

 

It sounds like it would be very difficult for you to make even weekly sessions with a trainer. And if you really want a dog who can work or trial well, it will mean a lot of time spent on stock. This is what I have been told by those in a position to know better than me. I am sure they will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Good luck to you, whatever you decide!

[Sue R]

I am really conflicted about this. Any time you work livestock with dogs, you put a certain amount of stress on the livestock. It is generally more stressful in the earlier stages of training the dog than when the dog is more polished in his/her working, as well as the handler being more experienced. I am one person who does not find it justifiable to stress livestock in order to "...cater to the needs of City dogs having fun..." as Urban Herding proclaims as part of their "aim".

 

First off, I don't think the dogs that are not working dogs "need to have fun" at the expense of livestock being stressed. Sure, the dogs may, once they've been exposed, find a wealth of instinct and desire to work stock awakened. But really, it's the owner who initiates this and it's really the owner who wants to give it a go as the dogs, who have never been exposed to livestock, are not really aware of what they are missing.

 

On the other hand, many times, there are sheep that live long and well-cared for lives as training sheep, who would have long ago been chops if they were not "gainfully employed" as training sheep, working whatever hours each week that they do and being able to relax, graze, and sleep the rest of the time.

 

I guess what I am trying to say, and I don't mean to offend but I am sure I am being a wet blanket, is that I (as a livestock owner and manager for 40 years, and a working stock dog handler to one degree or another for 30 of those years) don't feel it right to stress livestock for "fun" or "entertainment" or for any reason that does not truly have a purpose. And I truly believe the purpose of the working stock dog is not to increase or place stress on livestock but rather the opposite - to reduce and/or remove levels of stress on livestock (and the stockmen and stockwomen who manage them).

 

Please, don't be offended but I just felt I could not let this topic go by without expressing the feelings that I know a number of people have with regards to taking a dog to stock primarily for "a fun thing to do" rather than to produce an animal that will help someone manage their livestock with less stress for all concerned or even to be able to evaluate potential breeding choices for the betterment of the breed. And, if I've misunderstood your purpose and intent, please forgive me.

[chrisandgabe]

Sue R, thank you for sharing that perspective. It's not something I had really thought about before, but definitely an important thing to think about.

[dsmbc]

Sue R, thank you for that perspective. I completely agree that sheep are not dog toys. Though where I am conflicted is that I am one of those people, as are many people I've met who trial, that did not start out with stock. I took my rescue dog to a sheepdog trainer, because I thought it would be fun and wanted to see what would happen. I didn't have any expectations of owning stock (I lived in town at the time) and was just thinking it would be a fun thing to do with my dog. But I soon got hooked and fell in love with the sport and with sheep, and before you know it, I sold my house in town, bought a small farm and a flock of sheep. So going just for the fun of it, kind of changed my whole life.

[Lawgirl]

I absolutely respect you Sue R for sharing and explaining your point of view, and I certainly agree that the welfare of all of the animals should be a priority with everyone. It sounds as though I have some more questions to ask the instructors at the centre. This is something I would never have thought to ask, being completely ignorant when it comes to livestock.

 

Thank you Geonni for your perspective too. I am not sure about the ethics of occasional sheep dogging. I do know that if my dogs never meet a sheep, I will never know if they (or I) could be good. If it turns out they do have potential, well, I will have to find somewhere they can work close to home, and go for professional training when I can. I never thought I would actually trial in agility but I am. Maybe it will be similar with herding.

 

I guess I am looking at this as a voyage of discovery. All of my dogs came from Gumtree, an online trading site, so I do not really know about their background. Two allegedly came from herding dogs, one was an unwanted gift that was given away for free at 20 weeks old. The latter is a red merle and I am guessing that he came from barbie collie lines or a BYB, as the previous owner could not tell me anything about his breeding. Breeding my boys is not an issue for me, but I guess I want to give them the opportunity and see what happens. If they prove not to have instincts, I will take my near-collies home. If they have instincts, I will find a solution for my proper BCs.

[rushdoggie]

Sue R, thank you for that perspective. I completely agree that sheep are not dog toys. Though where I am conflicted is that I am one of those people, as are many people I've met who trial, that did not start out with stock. I took my rescue dog to a sheepdog trainer, because I thought it would be fun and wanted to see what would happen. I didn't have any expectations of owning stock (I lived in town at the time) and was just thinking it would be a fun thing to do with my dog. But I soon got hooked and fell in love with the sport and with sheep, and before you know it, I sold my house in town, bought a small farm and a flock of sheep. So going just for the fun of it, kind of changed my whole life.

 

+1

[mum24dog]

Like Sue R, I am conflicted too.

 

I have always thought of amateurs having a go out of curiosity as a bad thing but, as I said, my area is full of sheep and awakening an interest in sheep is not the safest of ideas without carrying on and getting the dog under complete control.

 

However, I am now one of those hobbyists and my two trainers are relaxed about the growing amateur influence. I'm told that older farmers here are giving up trialling and not enough younger ones are interested so the amateurs are supporting the hobby as well as contributing to the rural economy by supplementing the income of those who give lessons.

 

In my defence, I only considered doing it at all because my dog's breeding gave him a reasonable chance of having some talent and I could afford to go further with it. Just having a bc isn't reason enough and I never considered it with our other one.

 

But it's impossible to predict where it will lead and I've mentioned before someone who went to a "have a go" day several years ago and is now a full time shepherd who competed in last year's English Nationals.

[Mark Billadeau]

Mum24dog's example of the now full time shepherd is a good one. This person "tried" herding and then made the time & effort commitment for him and his dogs to practice, learn, progress to where they were no longer putting the same level of stress on the livestock as when they started.

 

If those who are going to "try" herding do not follow through with the effort to improve they and their dog are continuing to put the same level of stress on the stock each time they come. Is this continuing stress on the stock (with no effort to improve) humane treatment of the stock? Dabbling (making no effort to improve and lessen the stress on the stock) is not the same thing as trying herding and then either not continuing or making the effort and improving.

 

Herding is not about the dog; it is about better management of the livestock. The end goal of training the dog is not to give the dog a job or let it experience its instincts; the end goal is to provide a means to manage livestock with the minimal amount of stress on the stock.

[waffles]

Herding is not about the dog; it is about better management of the livestock. The end goal of training the dog is not to give the dog a job or let it experience its instincts; the end goal is to provide a means to manage livestock with the minimal amount of stress on the stock.

I think this is exactly what those who do not own livestock, would never think of. I see a lot of these posts on here and I usually don't say anything. But I always wonder why people never talk about their interest in working their dog or working sheep. They talk about what they hope the dog will do and what the trainer will do with the dog. But never mention themselves in the equation or about their excitement to work sheep. Even after a few goes, the talk continues to be about the trainer and the dog, as if they are just there to watch.

 

I think if you have an interest in working livestock, then go for it! If your interest is just in seeing what your dog will do because that seems fun for him, then I think most of those people never continue and pursue things further than a few trips. The interest has to lie in the human not just the dog.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms. Mum's story about the Noveau Shepherd is not uncommon. At most eastern US trails, I'd venture that almost all those who own sheep have them because years ago they took their Border Collie to a trainer to see if it had any instincts. One Michigan fellow liked to talk about his "million dollar border collie". Fellow had a nice agility dog, decided to see if . . . ended up quitting his executive job to buy a farm and sheep and an RV for trialing and more sheepdogs and . . .

 

But they are beautiful, aren't they?

 

Donald McCaig

[chrisandgabe]

I think it would be a dream come true to one day quit my job and buy a farm and have a bunch of sheepdogs Just working on selling the dream to my husband.

 

I've enjoyed bringing Gabe to sheep both to see what he does, but also because it's pretty cool to see the relationship the sheepdog trainer has with her sheep. The whole thing is pretty new and different to me, but something I'm really enjoying so far. The plan is for me to learn to work him and the livestock, but the trainer feels she's still getting to know him and whether or not he's actually as in control as he seems, or just a little intimidated by her. Gabe's nervous with new people, and she's still in that camp. Neither of us wants me to get on the field with him and have him decide "Oh, it's mom and I feel great so let me run wild!!" We're taking it slowly, but I'm hoping it's something new for Gabe and I to learn together, and who knows where it will take us.

[B Point]

There are some really great posts in this thread. You know, I'm at a stage of my life where if either of my two young dogs "had it" instead of just "showing promise" my life's course would have already changed drastically. Indeed, the million dollar dog as illustrated above by Mr McCaig. Now, I'm faced with the dilemma of finding a third dog and trying it all again. How's that for stating the human element Waffles...? Basing my early retirement, and family's future on a dogs level of instinct to herd sheep......lol...

[gcv-border]

There are some really great posts in this thread. You know, I'm at a stage of my life where if either of my two young dogs "had it" instead of just "showing promise" my life's course would have already changed drastically. Indeed, the million dollar dog as illustrated above by Mr McCaig. Now, I'm faced with the dilemma of finding a third dog and trying it all again. How's that for stating the human element Waffles...? Basing my early retirement, and family's future on a dogs level of instinct to herd sheep......lol...

It is all a learning experience. Don't feel alone. Many people want "the lifestyle".

 

Have you considered finding a started dog that has good instincts or a retired dog with several years of light work left who will help teach you the ropes? Would this be possible? I know you are in Japan and don't have the same canine resources that we do (i.e. in the States or the UK).

[waffles]

There are some really great posts in this thread. You know, I'm at a stage of my life where if either of my two young dogs "had it" instead of just "showing promise" my life's course would have already changed drastically. Indeed, the million dollar dog as illustrated above by Mr McCaig. Now, I'm faced with the dilemma of finding a third dog and trying it all again. How's that for stating the human element Waffles...? Basing my early retirement, and family's future on a dogs level of instinct to herd sheep......lol...

But if you want to be a sheep farmer, why do you have to wait for the dog? Get the sheep, learn how to care for them, then worry about the dog when you need him.

We have dairy goats and currently no need for them to be worked. I can't imagine doing all the work (it's currently 10 degrees with a negative wind chill and just came in from the barn) and putting all the money into raising goats just so I could work my dog on them. All the animals we have need to provide for us (milk, eggs).

 

I say, if you want to raise sheep then go for it! There is no need to wait until the right dog comes along and is already trained up.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

We had a commercial flock of 100 for three years before I bought our first Border Collie pup. One of the surprises of - I won't call what I did "training", "eliciting?" - a sheepdog was how much it taught me about sheep. Before the dog, I was dependent on chutes and pens, feeding and daily routine to bring sheep in or out, settle, lamb and medicate them.

 

I remember envying the pen systems at Ohio State and Virginia Tech where sheep were controlled the same as the livestock market.

 

Many years later, if a ewe had a single in a ten acre field, I'd wait ninety minutes before sending my dog to bring them into the barn.

 

Donald McCaig

[B Point]

It is all a learning experience. Don't feel alone. Many people want "the lifestyle".

 

Have you considered finding a started dog that has good instincts or a retired dog with several years of light work left who will help teach you the ropes? Would this be possible? I know you are in Japan and don't have the same canine resources that we do (i.e. in the States or the UK).

Yes, that is an option of having a dog from overseas sent to Japan. I do see the odd started dog come up on the FB Border Collie for sale page and given Japan's strict import law a mature dog is about the only option actually....or buying one from a proven breeder here...like Boya Farm etc.

 

But if you want to be a sheep farmer, why do you have to wait for the dog? Get the sheep, learn how to care for them, then worry about the dog when you need him.

We have dairy goats and currently no need for them to be worked. I can't imagine doing all the work (it's currently 10 degrees with a negative wind chill and just came in from the barn) and putting all the money into raising goats just so I could work my dog on them. All the animals we have need to provide for us (milk, eggs).

 

I say, if you want to raise sheep then go for it! There is no need to wait until the right dog comes along and is already trained up.

Well, as plans go, I have another 6 or 7 years until early retirement from my current career. I was hoping to have a few at least basically trained dogs by that time. I have access to sheep for training about an hour away from me so pretty much every weekend is possible. If and when we make this move it will be back up to Hokkaido with probably similar weather -10C to -20C winters. Having dogs from the get go just seems a logical preparation step.

[Lawgirl]

So Oscar, Bailey and I went to the herding lesson. Bailey was terrified of the sheep, which were three merino sheep who were very used to dogs. We tried three times for brief periods and he either ignored them or panic barked, so we pulled him out. He showed no signs of herding instincts according to the trainer; this was not really a surprise since Bailey is a fraidy dog and a merle.

Oscar, on the other hand, did very well. The trainer was very happy with him, said he had real potential and even said that if I was coming every week for training, in six months he would have Oscar working three sheep through obstacles and about ready to trial. Called Oscar a handy dog and said that he was the best older, town dog he had come through so far and the first one he thought could trial. The trainer even joked about taking Oscar home with him.

The trainer was very aware of the need to look after the sheep, and told me has sent people home if their dogs were too disturbing. His preference is for calm distant working of sheep to keep the sheep relaxed. He has a flock of sheep he works himself and he trials.

One of the reasons he has opened this centre is not to earn a living but to encourage more people to take up trialling, as he said the pool of people trialling is decreasing.

So the trainer is reaching out to his contacts to see if there is someone closer to where I live who might be willing to help me train Oscar. Who knows yet where things will end up? I don't, but I am not giving up.

[GentleLake]

He showed no signs of herding instincts according to the trainer; this was not really a surprise since Bailey is a fraidy dog and a merle.

 

How old is Bailey? Being afraid of sheep, especially in a dog who's naturally fearful, doesn't necessarily mean he has no instinct. It could just as easily mean that at this point his fear outweighed his instinct (and perhaps may always, but still he could have instinct. Older dogs never exposed to sheep often take much longer to turn on, even if they're not fearful.).

 

Being a merle also doesn't automatically preclude having instinct. My first border collie was a merle and had tons of both instinct and ability. There have been a number of merles who've done well in Open trials.

 

I hate it when trainers tell people such stupid things.

 

I'm glad you had a more satisfying experience with Oscar at any rate.

[juliepoudrier]

But if you want to be a sheep farmer, why do you have to wait for the dog? Get the sheep, learn how to care for them, then worry about the dog when you need him.

We have dairy goats and currently no need for them to be worked. I can't imagine doing all the work (it's currently 10 degrees with a negative wind chill and just came in from the barn) and putting all the money into raising goats just so I could work my dog on them. All the animals we have need to provide for us (milk, eggs).

 

I say, if you want to raise sheep then go for it! There is no need to wait until the right dog comes along and is already trained up.

 

I agree that if someone wants to raise livestock and they find what they want, there's no need to wait for a dog. I also don't see anything wrong with having the dog first and then getting stock. Sure, some folks keep stock only for dog training, but many of us raise stock because we enjoy raising stock. I keep my ewes for fiber and their lambs go for meat. Ewe ambs that are being kept as replacements (or wethers saved back for butchering for personal use) are worked by dogs until they enter the breeding flock after their first year (this provides me with a fresh set of sheep for dog training and is a means of making those young sheep "productive" while I support them until breeding age, which for me is the fall after they turn a year old. Nothing stays that's not productive, with the rare exception (there's always a special old one or similar). But I also can't imagine managing my flock, or the other flocks here (including poultry and goats) without the help of dogs, especially this time of year when we're putting out hay and feed.

 

I recently helped a local farmer get her sheep and goats up for worming. They were kept on a large pasture (40 or 60 acres) and she was experiencing losses because she was unable to reliably bring them up for checking and treatment, She was ready to get out of raising small ruminants because of the difficulty she was having managing them (they also raise cattle). We found her a good trained dog and her outlook has changed completely. She's a prime example of someone whose farming life was turned around by a good dog!

 

Anyway, I guess the problem with getting a trained dog now if you're (BPoint) not retiring for another 5 or 6 years is that the dog could be approaching retirement itself at that point. Also, depending on what sort of livestock you raise and how you set up your farm, you might be able to manage with a less-than-talented dog until you can get a trained dog. That is, you could work with what you have while you're starting out, then add a started/trained dog later. The problem with a pup is that you just really have no idea if it is going to be a useful worker or not, and of course by the time you find out the youngster is 2 or 3 years old and you then you have yet another who can't help you do what you need to do.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

So Oscar, Bailey and I went to the herding lesson. Bailey was terrified of the sheep, which were three merino sheep who were very used to dogs. We tried three times for brief periods and he either ignored them or panic barked, so we pulled him out. He showed no signs of herding instincts according to the trainer; this was not really a surprise since Bailey is a fraidy dog and a merle.

Oscar, on the other hand, did very well. The trainer was very happy with him, said he had real potential and even said that if I was coming every week for training, in six months he would have Oscar working three sheep through obstacles and about ready to trial. Called Oscar a handy dog and said that he was the best older, town dog he had come through so far and the first one he thought could trial. The trainer even joked about taking Oscar home with him.

The trainer was very aware of the need to look after the sheep, and told me has sent people home if their dogs were too disturbing. His preference is for calm distant working of sheep to keep the sheep relaxed. He has a flock of sheep he works himself and he trials.

One of the reasons he has opened this centre is not to earn a living but to encourage more people to take up trialling, as he said the pool of people trialling is decreasing.

So the trainer is reaching out to his contacts to see if there is someone closer to where I live who might be willing to help me train Oscar. Who knows yet where things will end up? I don't, but I am not giving up.

First time with sheep Risk totally ignored them in the round pen. Bombproof herdwicks that had no intention of going anywhere.

 

Next time with around 10 livelier hebrideans (felt like 20) in an open field and he was off.

 

He wasn't written off on the basis of his first showing, I was recommended to try more short exposures but it only took one.