Agility vs. SAR - obstacle training - long !

[Zoe]

As maybe some of you know, I have just started SAR training with Dylan. But I have been working with him on some agility equipment for quite some time - teeter, bench, dogwalk, very low jumps,( and tunnels when I have the chance ). We've been going real slow, using a clicker and he loves it. He does it all by himself - I have never used a lead or manipulated him in any way. I want him to be able to work at a distance from me - especially since he IS a BC I'm teaching him the one rear toe on method for contacts and he will wait to be released - I think we are doing pretty well. I don't take him to class - we do it all here at home. The other day I got the test description for the wilderness test for SAR. It has an agility/obedience component and a wilderness search component. The agility/obedience component is exactly the same as for the disaster test, so it is something we will have to do. I find parts of the agility/obedience test a little strange, but maybe that is due to my lack of knowledge. They actually call it "obedience" only. INU - if you're reading, please correct me if I'm wrong !!! (I think it should be retitled/rethought). Anyway, most of the obstacles/exercises are different to agility ones, but a couple are the same. Basically, the teeter and the tunnel. The test requires you to do the teeter in the following way: Starting with the dog sitting at the left side of the handler 1. the handler must tell the dog to get on the teeter but not go with the dog 2. when the dog reaches the pivot point the handler must tell the dog to wait/stop 3. the handler must walk to the dog's side, tell the dog to heel and then go forward together with their dog completing the teeter 4. they must stop after crossing the teeter with the dog in a sit position at the handlers side. :eek: Don't know where this comes from and I have to honest and say I think it is rather ridiculous. The tunnel is much the same story. My feeling at the moment is just to do the rest of the test perfectly ( I think we can do the other stuff ok ), and then lose points by having Dylan do the teeter pretty much in the same way as I'm doing it now with some "sits" added in !!! Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but I don't want to teach Dylan the teeter this way. I don't know if we will compete at agility, but that is not the point. I thought in SAR training they use the teeter to teach dogs to negotiate unstable footing. It will never appear in a disaster search and I don't think you would ever ask your dog to wait like that and then heel like that. I think wait and with me should be taught to help your dog in an unsafe situation, but is this test realistic/ok ? If you all say yes, you should do it like this, then I will. But....The other think I'd like to ask is do you think I could teach Dylan bot styles of negotiating the teeter without confusing him/stressing him out ? If I took this test it would be a year from now. If I went to agility class and did 1 RTO there, and then went to SAR and did it their way there, then maybe it would be less confusing, but I teach him on one board at home. INU - if you're there, you said you did agility training with Jazzy the other day - was that for SAR, and if so, was it like I described above ? Deanna, if you're reading, I'd love to know your opinion as I know Tenaya does both agility and SAR ( although I also know she does wilderness and there may not be such a big agility component to her training... )Anyone else, any thoughts appreciated !! I should also say that I will be talking with a bunch of people at my training site with regard to the test - but would like your thoughts first.

[Deanna in OR]

Tenaya's SAR training doesn't include an agility test as such, but the issue you bring up is one we have addressed in the context of training similar behaviors for different situations.

 

Many dogs get kind of freaked out by the teeter at first, and what you describe for the SAR teeter test isn't too different from how we trained our dogs to do it (Tenaya and Willow the Collie, who is 5 months younger than Tenaya).

 

It looks like a dogwalk to a dog at first, and they can just go charging up it and get worried when it suddently goes down under then after they hit the pivot point. So we would tell them to go up it and then quickly say "Down!" as they just got to or just past the pivot, then tell them to continue after their weight brought the teeter down to the ground, with a "spot" (two-on-two-off) at the end of the teeter. After they got used to it, we slowly stopped including the "down" at the pivot, just saying "easy", then just letting them go all the way to their "spot". Willow especially is great now at just charging over the teeter to her "spot" at the contact zone. Tenaya is still a little more tentative going over it.

 

But I think if I told either one of the dogs to "down" at the pivot point, they could do it, especially if we were approaching the teeter slowly from a heel, since that is how they learned it to begin with. I wouldn't worry about it affecting their normal fast run over the teeter.

 

A lot of people worry about dogs getting confused if you train two different sports at the same time or in the same place or with the same equipment, where a different behavior is expected. In my experience (and I've only been seriously into dog training for a couple of years), dogs cue a HUGE amount from the handler's behavior, and they can easily distinguish what they should do based on that. Some dogs do it better than others, but they can definitely learn.

 

A couple of examples--

 

We do Rally and Agility (and are working on Obedience), and of course Tenaya does SAR. There are jumps in Rally and Agility, but in Rally, we are doing heel work and the jump is very controlled, with the dog having to return immediately to the handler's left side. I can at one moment be doing heelwork with Willow, send her over a jump, and call her immediately back to heel (we sometimes do this while waiting our turn in Agility class); then 30 seconds later, take our turn on the Agility course and she has no problem running out and away from me around the course including over the jumps. She knows the difference based on whether I am running or walking, and on what I ask her to do. I use the same command for the jump in both cases ("hup").

 

Tenaya has an incredible "stay"--great for OBedience but also great for the start line in Agility. But when it is time to run, she is like the wind! My husband is constantly testing her start line and contact-zone stays--she is like she's glued in place, until she is released--but then the next obstacle is called and she is amazingly quick once she is released. And of course she can work at quite a far distance for SAR, but stay right there in heel for Obedience and Rally.

 

If you are worried about Dylan getting confused, just use a different command for the teeter or the tunnel, depending on how you want him to take it. But your body language will already be different--you'll be walking not running--so he will probably cue off of that without you needing a different command. It just depends on what you reward, and how consistent you are in the two different situations.

 

Hope that long-winded answer helps!

 

Deanna in OR

[Deanna in OR]

One other thing--they may want to test you on the teeter or tunnel like you describe because there could be situations where your dog is in a very precarious situation and you want him to move slowly and under control, for his own safety. For this reason, they probably want to be sure you can keep him moving slowly under your control in those situations, not just charging ahead like he would on an agility course.

 

He'll be able to do it! Our dogs are smarter than many people give them credit for.

 

Deanna in OR

[Zoe]

Wow, Deanna. Thank you so much for your reply. You have helped a lot. I feel kind of silly now ! This has been going around and around in my head for a week or so and because I have been having some issues with some of the other things at my training site, I guess I decided to take issue with this. I love your description of Willow moving from a rally practice and then onto an agility course. And Tenaya's stay. Dylan has a really good stay too - I can run away from him and he will not budge an inch until I release him and this is at the field where we play/train when we have just gotten there. So he is bursting to go, but can hold it - I just love him for that. But then when they get to go, they really go and it is more fun !

 

And what you say about body language and dogs taking cues from their handlers - that also makes total sense. I think that Dylan would easily be able to do both now that I think about it And I have actually had an idea just pop into my head about how I could teach him the two approaches to the teeter I've seen 'photos of Willow and Tenaya that you have posted on the Boards. I'd love to see them in action. You don't have any video do you ?

 

Seriously, I am very grateful. You have always responded to my posts regarding SAR. I really appreciate it.

[INU]

Zoe, sorry, I didn't see the post earlier.

 

For wilderness, we don't have agility test but for disaster we do. It is more structured and strict agility like you described. It is to test not only the dog's ability to work on rubbles but to see if the handler has the total control on the rubble. It's for safety of the dogs and for the victims too if you think about it. You don't want the dog jumping on the victim out of excitement.

 

We did an afternoon agility the other day. We have disaster/wilderness/cadaver/trailing dogs and we train together. Even though it is not required for wilderness dogs it's good to put them on the rubble/agility equipment. When Jazzy worked in Louisiana as a cadaver dog, I was thankful that she had rubble/agility training prior to it.

 

Like Deanna said, I would think they know the difference between SAR agility and sports agility. I don't know about your team but in our training, we use equipments that are different from sports agility.

[MaggieDog]

One thing I do when training different sports at the same time is use a physical cue - in my case it's usually a collar.

 

Maggie knows that when she's on a slip lead or her light weight snap collar we will be doing agility stuff, when she wears her 1.5" wide padded collar it's rollerblading and she can pull if she wants, her plain ID collar is just for walks and short trips, and her cushioned prong or limited slip collar is for working in public places or running with me. Maggie also knows that when she's wearing a vest she's 'on duty' as a therapy dog so she moderates her behavior then as well.

 

If your dog has a special vest or collar for SAR I think that in and of itself will cue him into the different way of working on equipment.

[INU]

Maggie has a good point. I recently added something to let Jazzy know what she is supposed to be doing at the time. Since she is cross trained and besides the commands, I want to make sure she knows if she is supposed to find live person or deceased person. I use powder for deceased and flagging tape (no powder) for wilderness to check the wind. I also put a bell on her when we are doing wilderness. The other day I tried to see if she really knew what she was doing. I left cadaver between the base and the live victim, I gave her the live command. She ignored the cadaver completely and found the live person. So, they know as long as you teach them clearly.

[Deanna in OR]

Glad my post helped a little, Zoe.

 

Like the others said, a physical cue can help. Tenaya knows that when her vest is on, she is doing SAR. Both dogs know that when the harness is on, they can pull (I use harnesses with Flexis to walk both together when my husband isn't around--I don't want them thinking it's OK to pull with a regular collar on).

 

Thanks for the complements on our girls--I don't have any video of them available on-line, sorry!

 

Deanna in OR

[Zoe]

Maggie, and Deanna thank you. I am going to try and do something similar - using a physical cue.

Inu, I understand what you say about the strict agility and the need for control. I don't know why, I thought the test would be a little different. I do like the fact that the JRDA has this part of the test on their wilderness exam - I think it will help dogs cope with the various kinds of terrain they would encounter.I like the idea of the bell for wilderness.I'm going to copy that ! Isn't Jazzy great ignoring the cadaver like that.

( I wish I could train with you !!! I went again today and the number of people that shout at their dogs or are even cruel to them............. I'm going to ask if the JRDA has a policy on stuff like that. If I was running a training course I would set some kind of guidelines/standard. )