SAR - need advice !

[Zoe]

I've posted a couple of times about doing SAR with Dylan. Well, we have been to a few of the training sites and met some people and still have to meet some more. It is rather a fragmented organization. It would take way too long to explain here. I will just say that there are two exams - one for wilderness and one for disaster. But even though refind is acceptable as an alert on the wilderness test, it looks like the trainers choose to teach bark alert. I went to observe one of the training groups who seem to be the most serious ( again, too long to explain ). They were doing practice wilderness search. The trainer wanted to see Dylan and we went to an open space with some brush. I held Dylan while the trainer got him to bark for his ball. (I had taught him to bark on command - it was a little difficult at first as I don't think he was comfortable barking at me, but now he will do it really well. I used a clicker and have got him to bark with four feet on the floor for longer and longer times - he did jump up right at the beginning ) Dylan caught on really fast and was lunging to get away from me and to the trainer who had his ball. After a couple of goes, the trainer "hid" behind some long grass with Dylan watching. Dylan wanted to follow and on the trainers signal I let Dylan go. Dylan went and bark alerted next to the trainer - then got to play. This was repeated 3 or 4 times getting very slightly more difficult. Dylan caught on really quick and then had a big play with the trainer at the end. It was Dylan's first time and I thought they would have me as the "victim", but he went after the trainer really well. It all went fine, but from what I have read wilderness search is usually conducted using the refind/bringsel alert. The Japan Rescue Dog Association teaches bark alert for disaster and wilderness. However, the refind/bringsel alert is an acceptable method to use in their test to certify SAR dogs. I like the idea of refind for wilderness. I think the trainer I met would be flexible and help me to teach Dylan refind if I pushed for it. Do you think it is ok to do bark alert for wilderness ? I understand that it may alarm the person being found, but is there any other reason why it shouldn't be used ? Should I push for us to learn refind ? Dylan has already learnt a bit and I don't think he is going to forget it... I need to make some quick decisions. I'm sorry to ask you guys this kind of stuff. I'd really appreciate any thoughts you have. Thank you !

[KelliePup]

As I understand it, refind is very important. The dog has to go out, in some instances without their master, find the victim, return and give their signal, and then lead their master back to the victim. I'd teach it anyway. In fact, that's what my mentor in Montana recommended (Still looking for one here in MI)

[INU]

Zoe, (sorry I was having problem logging in)

Cooper does bark alert in wilderness and disaster. Jazzy does refind in wilderness and cadaver. When I started, everyone on the team was doing bark alert in wilderness and disaster.

 

Jazzy is not much of a barker and I decided to use refind and I had to experiment because nobody was doing it at that time. I developed this method with my leader and I share it with others at seminars. It it more complicated to teach refind and dogs can get more tired in real searches - x 3 running. I like it because it fits her personality and she remained a quiet dog. I don't see a reason not to use refind in wilderness but if you are doing both wilderness and disaster, I would personally use the same indication for both. Have you decided you which one you want to do first? Wilderness or disaster?

[Zoe]

I'd rather start with wilderness, but the training sites really only cater for disaster. It is a bit wierd here as you saw. But the group I went to train with just recently ( Sakura group ),do mainly wilderness - so I am wavering about what to do.And the trainer said he would work with Dylan from the beginning. The BIG problem is that if I want to take part in any JRDA activities I have to pass an obedience test and a basic search test. I can only train for these at the official sites. They use bark boxes for basic search practice. I have only been there for training once and was not really impressed with the trainer. I don't think he is bad, just old fashioned and he doesn't have nor has he trained an SAR dog of his own. I do think he can prepare us for the two tests and it looks as though we have no choice but to go with that.With regard to the bark alert, you have made me feel a lot better about it. It certainly would be easier to keep to the same kind of alert and less confusing for Dylan. I won't rock the boat then !! I'm going to go along to training with both groups this weekend, corner the teachers and ask a million questions ! Do you think I could do both in tandem ?

[KelliePup]

What about a combination? Keller, my mentor's GS, would find the victim, bark, return to his handler, bark, and lead his handler back where he got in one last bark.

 

Just a thought.

[INU]

It is possible to do both as many handlers train in different areas at the same time. One week on rubble, next week in the woods and third week in a building. If you are going to stick with bark alert in both, then I don't see the problem. I think the most important part of the SAR is the indication. Any dogs can find the 'scent' but a well-trained SAR dog can 'alert' clearly. So your main focus in the beggining should be the indication. I don't think it matters where he is training. It's good to have variety anyway. The scent through rubbles, woods, water, hills and buildings move differently and Dylan should be exposed to all kinds of situations, as well as teaching you how to read the scent by watching his body language.

 

Now, training with two different groups can be an issue if their styles/goals are different. But then you get to see different handlers/dogs nd socialize Dylan with other dogs. Everyone has a different opinion and some believe they are always correct. I always listen to whatever experienced handlers have to say but only take what works for us. And as you know, they probably don't know much about BCs... I wish you were in Texas! You would be a great training mate.

[Zoe]

Kelliepup - thanks - I like that idea for wilderness.

 

INU, thank you. You have really put my mind at rest. I suppose part of the problem in my very limited experience so far is that the trainers haven't really explained anything. I'm used to information and explanations first off. Maybe it is just 'cos they have been looking at Dylan up to now.I shall ask lots of questions next time - it was kind of hard the first time, you know what it can be like here !

 

I wish I was in Texas too ! Well, maybe not Texas, but to be your training mate ! ( Sorry to any native Texans out there :eek: )

[Deanna in OR]

The group my husband was training with for mostly-wilderness SAR used bark alerts almost exclusively....ca couple of people use a "jump on the handler" alert, instead. My husband's mentor in the group was a German woman who had used Border Collies in Europe for SAR and used the bringsel alert, and that's what Tenaya was taught with, but bark alerts seem to be pretty common.

 

Like INU said, a consistent and reliable alert is more important than the kind of alert itself.

 

Also, as the handler, you will probably NOT be the "victim" for your own dog. You will play victim for others in your training group.

 

It sounds like Dylan has a great play drive and that you've already taught him behaviors useful for SAR.

 

Good luck! It's a lot of work and commitment (and I hope the "fragmented organization" doesn't become a problem...it did in my husband's case and they are taking a break from SAR for now).

 

Deanna in OR

[Zoe]

Deanna, thanks. I am sticking with the bark alert because Dylan has kind of caught on to barking !!! Now when we do any kind of training he will offer me barks !

We actually went to a training session yesterday and had fun for the first time. I feel so much better now. I was rather assertive and asked a lot of questions and also explained what I have been doing with Dylan and it all went a lot more smoothly. I played victim and it worked really well. The trainer tried to put himself in as victim and also get Dylan to bark, but Dylan was a bit half hearted about it and wanted to come back to me. It has been intersting to see just how mindful of/attached to me he is since we have started this training. So we are sticking with me for a while until he knows the rules of the game better. And then move on to someone he has played with and wants to play with. Take it slow.

I was actually really proud of Dylan yesterday - I took my clicker and treats for some of the easy obstacles they have there.Nobody uses clickers here and I was actually cautioned about using it by one of the trainers ( ! ) I have worked with him at home on several agility obstacles and he LOVES them. But this was the first time over there on new stuff. Well, in 5 minutes he was clambering all over a big dogwalk with a metal mesh "plank" along the top ( a brand new surface for him )AND he wanted to get up on a plank balanced on two oil drums. It was all a bit wobbly for him, but he took it in his stride. So proud !!! ( And the young trainer was yelling at his GSD for jumping off the teeter....) AND - another little brag but Dylan was playing with a new friend at a little bit of a distance from me. I tried calling him to me and he just bounded over immediately. I was so pleased - it is the first time I have tried it.

We had a good day ! I don't know if you'll read this - I actually have a question for you with regard to doing both agility and SAR which I know you do with Tenaya. I'll post it seperately.

[Deanna in OR]

Zoe, it sounds like this last training session went really well! My husband started out with "run away" games with Tenaya when he started the official training, where someone plays with a toy, then runs away a bit and hides behind a building or something, while he kept Tenaya, then sent her to find the person with her toy.

 

We frequently play hide-and-seek games with her in the house, hiding one of her favorite toys in a different room while she is in a sit-stay in one place. It has done wonders for her "stay" and she gets lots of "nose" practice. We hide the toy high or low, and lately we might hide 3 different toys and she has to find the right one. When she brings it back, she gets an intense, short play session with that toy. There is one toy that is reserved for SAR only--she ONLY gets to play with it when she makes a find.

 

Tenaya is partly clicker-trained. The clicker is a great tool to teach/shape particular behaviors, and to occasionally reinforce them (mainly in Obedience and Agility). We drop the clicker once she shows she knows the new bahavior, only going back if she needs help to generalize it (she takes a while to generalize a new behavior to other places or apparatus).

 

I'll watch for your question on Agility and SAR.

 

Deanna in OR